Finish Lines & Milestones: Episode 103: Jake Hostetler - They Thought He'd NEVER Be Able to Run

April 11, 2025

Here's a link to listen to this week's episode.

Guest: Jake Hostetler @_jake_hostetler

Show Notes:

Jake Hostetler⁠ is a runner, musician, and manager at a local specialty running store, ⁠Athletic Annex⁠.

During this episode, sponsored by ⁠⁠Previnex⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠BITCHSTIX⁠⁠, we talk about: his personal journey from overcoming physical challenges in childhood to becoming a dedicated runner in middle and high school. He discusses his switch from being a music performance major to focusing on music production and audio engineering due to severe performance anxiety. Jake also talks about his experiences in the running specialty industry, his training strategies, and his participation in various races, including a recent ultra marathon. The episode also explores his passion for creating and producing music, including podcast intros and other audio projects.

00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message

01:43 Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones

02:18 Spring Break Recap

03:27 Upcoming Running Events

04:48 Alcohol-Free Journey

05:10 Introducing Jake Hostetler

06:19 Jake's Early Life and Running Journey

18:07 High School Running Experience

22:53 College and Music Career

31:03 The Gigging Life: Studio Sessions and Jazz Solos

31:47 Transitioning to Retail: From College to Jackrabbit

31:57 Building a Career: Meeting Luke and Developing Skills

32:30 Managing at Jackrabbit: Challenges and Growth

33:12 Joining Athletic Annex: A New Opportunity

34:20 Navigating Retail During COVID-19

34:58 Innovative Sales Strategies: Adapting to Challenges

38:00 The Importance of Proper Footwear: Customer Experiences

42:19 Running Journey: From High School to Half Marathons

45:25 First Full Marathon: The Mill Race Experience

50:56 Ultra Marathon Adventures: Prairie on Fire

59:20 Discussing Drinking During Runs

01:00:09 Documentary: Chasing 100

01:02:10 Becoming an Ultra Marathoner

01:04:13 Music Production Journey

01:05:07 Creating Custom Music

01:08:45 The Art of Music Production

01:16:01 Running and Music Preferences

01:18:58 Future Running Goals

01:22:05 Podcast Conclusion

Sponsor Details:

- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Previnex⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - ALLY15 for 15% off your first order
- ⁠⁠⁠⁠BITCHSTIX⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ -ALLYB for 20% off your order

Episode Transcript:

This is a Sandy Boy Productions podcast.

This episode is brought to you by Prevenex.

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And Previnex is also a sponsor of our upcoming event.

1:40

Thank you so much to them for supporting this podcast.

Welcome to finish lines and milestones, a podcast that celebrates the everyday runner.

1:48

I'm your host, Alley Brettnacher.

And if you run, you are a runner.

1:52

And every runner has a story, which is why I started this show.

If you're new here, welcome.

1:57

If you've been around for a while, you certainly notice the new podcast music.

This is my first time recording with it.

2:03

I'll tell you a little bit more about how this new music came about.

It actually is all thanks to my guest this week, Jake Hostetler.

2:10

So in a moment, I'll introduce you to him.

But I decided that I just needed something that felt more like me, less cheesy.

2:18

Anyway, you'll hear us talk about that, but I am fresh off of an airplane home from spring break.

It is almost 11:00 PM.

2:25

I'm trying to get this episode out.

That's what I get for not doing a lot of work on vacation, which I shouldn't, but it doesn't feel

2:32

like work, so this is fine.

I'm fine.

2:36

For spring break.

We went to Florida.

2:38

We did Saturday through Thursday and we went to Naples, FL primarily.

So we flew into Punta Gorda because flights were cheaper, saw my aunt who spends her winters in

2:49

Venice Beach for lunch.

Then we went to Bonita Springs, which is just north of Naples, where my parents are in the winter

2:56

time.

And then Zach and I, my husband, we snuck away for a night to Key West, which is where we got

3:02

engaged 12 years ago.

And I booked us a room at the same exact place where we got engaged And so we could kind of relive

3:11

that.

And it was awesome.

3:12

We really needed the time away.

I didn't really realize how long it had been since Zach and I did just a trip, just the two of us.

3:20

So kind of embarrassed for how long that is actually.

But it was great.

3:24

We're home, happy to be home, ready for spring.

And Speaking of spring, that means running.

3:29

I'm so pumped that we're into race season.

The Carmel Marathon is in nine days, or I guess 8 by the time you listen to this on April 19th.

3:38

And I will have a cheer zone at mile 20 for the marathon.

I will also have a booth at the Expo for my business Athlete Bouquets.

3:46

So I am so excited next week to just get all ready for that and I can't wait to see so many familiar

faces both at the Expo and on the course.

3:55

It's going to be a blast.

And then we have the indie Mini which is on May 3rd and the event that I'm Co hosting with Lindsay

4:02

Hyne, who is the host of the I'll have another podcast with Lindsay Hyne and also the founder of

Sandy Boy Productions, which is the podcast network that I am so lucky to be a part of now.

4:12

So we have an event that night and it's the night before the race.

It's going to be amazing.

4:17

It's going to be live podcast.

We're going to sell out.

4:20

So make sure you get your ticket 25 bucks.

Well worth it for just the stuff that's going to be in the goodie bag.

4:25

And we're doing on site giveaways.

We just finished up our social media giveaway, which was a weekend getaway giveaway.

4:34

And our lucky winner was Abby Prentice, who actually is local to Indianapolis.

So she will have an amazing staycation thanks to the Bottle Works, thanks to our incredible event

4:44

sponsors.

Really excited for her.

4:47

So Congrats again, Abby.

I will have you know, even though I went to Florida for spring break, even though I went to Key

4:54

West, I am still 36 days alcohol free.

So I am very proud of myself.

5:00

It feels really good.

I'm not going to lie, my body feels great.

5:03

I get better sleep.

I'm starting to wonder if I will really drink much at all anymore, which is just so weird to admit.

5:10

Anyway, so Jake Hostetler, he made this music, he's very into music.

Jake also opened the Clay Terrace location of our local running store, Athletic Annex, a couple

5:20

years ago.

So he does music on the side.

5:23

And I'm so happy that I got to support somebody in our local running community in this podcast.

And Jake is a runner.

5:32

He has done a full marathon and ultra marathon, ultimately to get to know his clientele, which I

think is really cool and inspiring.

5:39

And then, you know, obviously, it's snowballed from there because now he's doing an ultra again this

year and hopes to up his distance.

5:46

And I really just loved finally getting a chance to sit down with Jake and get to know him a little

bit better.

5:51

And I know all of you will, too.

So please enjoy this episode with Jake Hostetler.

5:58

Welcome Jake Hostetler.

How's it going?

6:01

I got that right.

Yeah, killed it.

6:04

I didn't add an extra like hostetler or anything.

I hear, I hear everything so.

6:09

Me too, Brett.

I'm Brett Natcher.

6:11

Yeah, it's, it's hard because.

What is it, Brett Knocker?

6:13

Knocker, which, you know, it's tough for Americans.

Yeah, Yeah.

6:19

Well, thanks so much for finally doing this with me.

I feel like you've been on my list from the beginning really because I've known that you're in the

6:26

running space and you're, you know, very plugged in with your work with Athletic Annex and now

you're an ultramarathoner and all the things.

6:35

So I'm just really happy to finally get a chance to get to know you versus our like quick

conversations here and there at events.

6:41

So thanks.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

6:43

This is cool.

And we were just chatting about how you went to high school at Carmel and we are currently recording

6:48

in the Carmel Library, so not too far from where you used to run.

Yep.

6:54

Quite a bit.

Across the street.

6:56

Across the street.

How big was Carmel when you graduated?

6:59

The school itself had about 5000 kids in my graduating class, I believe was around 1200.

That's crazy.

7:06

So yeah, I'll never forget during graduation, I sat down next to two people I'd never seen before.

And I was a pretty social person.

7:13

I knew a lot of people, but I just like, I literally have.

No, I have no idea you.

7:16

Might not even go here, I have no idea.

Yeah, who knows?

7:19

That is kind of weird to think about.

It's wild.

7:21

Yeah.

I went to Westfield High School and graduated in 04, and we had like 250 kids.

7:26

Yeah.

So that's a size where I feel like I knew everyone's face, probably, but not necessarily everybody's

7:32

name.

But it felt pretty small, obviously, compared to Carmel.

7:35

Yeah.

7:36

And I have no idea what the class sizes are now, but probably even bigger than that.

Massive.

7:40

Yeah, I'm sure.

It's nuts.

7:42

So you ran as a kid?

When did you first start?

7:46

Actually, let's just talk about what you already mentioned to me before this.

Let's just talk about that as a kid, your parents thought you'd never run and doctors thought you

7:53

would never run, correct?

Yeah, in physical activity in general would have been a struggle, yeah.

7:58

Which is crazy.

I would have never, ever guessed that.

8:01

Yeah, I mean, nobody would so.

Yeah, exactly.

8:03

How old were you when your parents knew that you had issues with your walking?

So basically I, I don't have the exact time frame.

8:10

I think it was when I was about four or five years old, OK, I was a toe Walker and basically my

calves were so stiff and locked up that I could not flex my foot flat on the ground.

8:21

So that that made things really tough.

I walked like that all the time and had to go through a long a long process of first getting Botox

8:29

injections into my calves.

Which is a 5 year old.

8:32

It sounds so true.

Oh my gosh.

8:33

And they were huge needles.

Like holy.

8:35

Crap.

I mean the idea of doing that like where in your just like right in the middle of your calf.

8:38

Yeah, yeah.

And I'll, I'll never forget because it was, they had to hold the needle in there like 10 seconds to

8:43

get all of it in.

And as a kid, that's brutal.

8:47

And then I went through a series of casts that would just slowly kind of wrench my foot back into

kind of a neutral position.

8:54

And yeah, so.

What is it?

8:56

Both feet though?

So would you have to like?

8:57

Wear There's both sides, yeah.

And how many injections did you get over time?

9:01

How often do you have?

To do that, do you remember?

9:02

I don't remember.

I think that may have just been once or twice that I had to go through that luckily.

9:06

But the cast were traumatizing in themselves because you know, it's it's summer or spring and you're

at school.

9:14

I have two casts on my feet, like, yeah, that is wild.

That is wild.

9:19

Yeah, I mean, I probably didn't care at that point.

I was.

9:21

Too young to, like, really know.

Yeah, but still, like, yeah, it's hard on your parents too.

9:26

Sure.

And you have one sibling.

9:28

One sibling?

Yep.

9:28

Brother.

Yep, got a little brother named Caller.

9:30

Brother.

OK, so he's younger.

9:31

He's way taller than me though, he's like 6 foot 5.

South and did he have any issues?

9:36

Nope, no.

Is it genetic, they think, or do you have any idea?

9:39

No, just off in your toes.

And I've no clue.

9:42

Yeah.

I mean that's it's, it's not terribly uncommon, but.

9:45

Right.

I was telling you that I have.

9:46

Yeah, I have a friend who her kid does it sometimes, not all the time, but a lot of times.

And she's, I remember her just trying to like get him not to do it.

9:55

Like, hey, you need to walk normally because you don't know what that's going to do.

And clearly, if your calves are like that, that's crazy.

10:01

Yep, yeah, there's no way to unflex him and I've still had, I've still had issues where I'll get

mass of cramps while I'm trying to sleep like that's that's.

10:10

Calf cramps are probably the worst.

Pain.

10:13

I mean, I'm saying this as somebody who's given birth and calf cramps are a special kind of pain.

There's no way to compare that right there.

10:20

Yeah, for you.

You're like, I'm not going to say anything about that, but it hurts, let me tell you.

10:24

Yeah.

I mean, holy cow, anybody who's not had a calf cramp is so lucky.

10:28

Yeah, and I've had calf cramps for like over 10 minutes long before where I'm just like, they're

just like, Oh my God.

10:34

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, that's, I'm sorry.

10:37

That sucks.

No, it's, I mean, it's all good.

10:39

Like, well, at least I can run.

Yeah, I can.

10:41

I can run and do a lot of things so.

What is your earliest memory of running?

10:46

Yeah, so for me, running really started in 8th grade, OK, at Creekside Middle School.

I at that point I had, I've done karate for a while, probably around.

10:58

I started when I was 6, so I'd done it.

I did karate a little over 10 years.

11:02

You still do it?

No, no.

11:03

OK.

I was at Adamson's Karate studio, got my second degree black belt.

11:08

That's kind of where my athletics.

What does second?

11:10

Degree.

Mean.

11:13

Basically there's different stages of once you get a black belt, there's obviously a lot more to

learn after that.

11:18

So there's.

Is there?

11:20

I have no idea, Jake.

Yeah.

11:22

Yeah, there's.

OK.

11:23

Yeah, there's what's the highest level you can possibly be in karate.

I can't.

11:28

I can't even tell you I.

Probably have to Google that.

11:30

Curious now.

So a second degree black belt?

11:33

Yep, Yep.

So I did that.

11:35

I competed on the competition team.

We competed all all over the country and it was kind of cool.

11:40

You competed all over the country from karate.

We did it through AAU.

11:44

That's cool.

So that was cool, but that's where it is started.

11:47

And the transition into running when I was in middle school, you know, like a lot of people having

issues just kind of fitting in socially, focusing, making terrible grades, struggled really bad with

11:58

ADHD.

And basically my mom kept driving by the school and seeing all the, you know, kids out there running

12:05

and having, you know, good social interaction.

That because I that's the campus that my kid goes to elementary school.

12:11

Oh, really?

And so I.

12:12

See all the kids running on that campus and I can visualize what your mom saw and was like, this is

Jake needs to be doing.

12:18

That yeah, she's like let's try it.

Never thought of running.

12:20

I hated it.

I think in gym I think I ran like an 8 minute mile or something and that was me like going as hard

12:26

as I could.

Didn't like how it felt, but just really was able to create a good social atmosphere for myself.

12:32

There.

I met some, some of my closest friends still to this day from running there.

12:37

It's crazy because my, my grades went from like I was making really bad grades to actually being

able to be on honor roll and, and you know, get my act together because that was a good release

12:47

after school.

Then I actually was able to focus when I got home to do my homework.

12:52

And then from there, besides the social setting, having a goal to work for, it kind of just it

helped me have a release for my hyperactivity and helped me focus.

13:01

Yeah, and so did you do both track and cross country in 8th grade?

I did in 8th grade, yeah.

13:06

OK.

Yeah, In high school I only did cross country.

13:09

OK.

And is that typical at Carmel?

13:11

Because for anybody who's not local like Carmel, our school district is super competitive as you

can.

13:17

I mean, as we just said, it's a humongous school and so it's really competitive.

So is it typical for an athlete just to do one of those sports?

13:25

No, actually at Carmel.

I mean, yes, but if you're a serious runner, you want to stack your seasons, obviously, especially

13:33

with the sort of training that we were doing there, is is really important to consistently build

your mileage and keep the same workouts consistent throughout the entire year.

13:41

Unfortunately, or fortunately, I guess I couldn't do track, but it's because I was really involved

in the music program.

13:47

Yeah, I was in also.

I was in, you know, jazz band, the top orchestra bands, all that stuff.

13:53

So there was just a ton of time commitment there where I could not do both going into the spring.

So I would just train on my own and my coach over at the high school, coach Alts vote, would he'd

14:03

help write out my training over the offseason, which helped me come back where I was the season

before.

14:09

Wow, so does music run in your family?

Oh yeah.

14:13

OK, tell me about that.

My my mom and dad both were music majors at Butler University.

14:20

My mom is a super gifted clarinet player.

She went to Michigan, the Northwestern, to pursue postgraduate degrees from there and played some

14:29

pro gigs and then my dad.

What kind of pro gigs do you play when you play clarinet?

14:33

I mean, all sorts of things with the Symphony, there's, you know, there's operas and all sorts of

things.

14:38

And she, she played, she played solo in front of her orchestra at Butler.

And, you know, there's cool.

14:44

Yeah, there's a lot of opportunity.

Can you play the clarinet?

14:47

No.

No way.

14:50

No trumpet player.

Yeah.

14:52

And then my dad was a jazz guitar player, and then he actually started a music company called Piano

Solutions.

14:57

That's right here in Carmel.

Yeah, I totally can picture that.

15:01

Is it still in that triangle building off of Carl Drive?

Yeah, the the gymnastics studio.

15:06

Yeah, and I used to, embarrassingly enough, I took a dance class there, like a hip hop dance class

at high school at that building and played it off the wall sports, indoor soccer right next.

15:14

To Yeah, yeah, I played there too.

Yeah, but I totally picture where piano solutions is.

15:18

OK, what a silly question.

I guess that just goes to show how well I know.

15:22

You.

No, It's cool.

15:23

Yeah.

15:23

But no music steep in the family.

My little brother was a really accomplished trombone player at at Carmel 2.

15:30

You guys really span the gamut in terms.

Of instruments here.

15:33

Yeah.

I got a full band in there.

15:34

Yeah.

You do.

15:35

Yeah.

But I play guitar as well.

15:36

That's trumpet.

And trumpet's what I ended up going to college for as a music major.

15:40

But I've played guitar since I was probably like 10 or 11 years old, and that's been kind of my fun

instrument.

15:46

Yeah, that's really cool.

I wish I could play an instrument I wish I had.

15:49

Well, I mean, I guess.

I would start right.

15:50

Yeah, I mean, what a silly thing to say.

I've encouraged my oldest daughter to do keyboards, so we've done some of that, but she then loses

15:59

interest.

And I'm like, OK, well, I don't want to make you do this, but I really wish that I knew how to read

16:04

music.

Yeah.

16:05

Anyway, I digress.

Sure.

16:06

So your family is really musically inclined.

So at what age did you start like learning to play instruments?

16:14

That's kind of hard because I mean, we always had our hands on something musical since my brother

and I, since we were really young.

16:20

Probably like probably since you could like hold things.

Yeah, pretty much, yeah.

16:26

But yeah, in 6th grade, during the summer band programs, I picked up trumpet and basically just went

from there and ended up being something I was able to have some success with, which all instruments

16:39

are so technically frustrating to get past the first couple of hurdles.

But once you have some technical facility, then things start getting more fun and you can see the

16:47

progress.

Just like running, you know you got to build a base and then just refine from there.

16:52

That was pretty good pun too.

Yeah, right.

16:56

Yeah, it.

All, it's all related, yeah.

16:58

It is all related how?

What drew you to the trumpet?

17:01

I have no idea.

I remember I went to, I went to the audition tryouts and I really wanted to be a drummer.

17:08

And I'm, I'm pretty decent at the drums, but I wanted that so bad.

But the trumpet was just so natural.

17:13

And I'm pretty sure my mom was there and my mom was a band director and, you know, obviously really

experienced musician.

17:20

So she was like, no, you're way more talented at this.

And I think that kind of I was just like, yeah, let's try this and glad I went that.

17:28

Direction.

It's nice to have some expertise in the family to steer you in the right direction too.

17:31

She's like, wait, this is where you're good.

Yeah.

17:33

And and you want to pursue what what comes naturally because it it's already really hard getting

good at an instrument.

17:39

You you need something on your side as far as natural ability to make that work.

Yeah, I want to keep talking about music, but like chronologically, I want to hear a little bit more

17:48

about your high school running days.

Sure, especially in such a competitive environment as Carmel.

17:53

Yeah.

So what were the events that you ran or for cross country, it's just you just do the it's.

17:58

Just 5K.

Yeah, it's just five Ki always forget that.

18:00

I never did cross country clearly.

Yeah, but OK, just the 5K.

18:04

So what was that like?

It it was, it was crazy getting there, especially because I came in as an eighth grader having never

18:12

ran before, so I only had one year of running under my belt.

How did you get on the team?

18:16

Well, typically I think at that point if you were a freshman and you showed up to summer practices,

you were pretty much on the team.

18:23

There was some sort of time cut off, but it wasn't anything crazy.

It may have been like a 22 minute 5K or something.

18:29

So like as long as you had good base cardio, that was pretty doable.

But I was not a quick runner at all.

18:34

I was towards the back of the pack through middle school and coming into Carmel.

Obviously the competition is insane.

18:40

I mean, we had around 100 runners on the team, even with cuts the whole time I was there.

I wonder what the average size of like a cross country team would be.

18:49

Yeah, I couldn't really tell you in Indiana.

But not 100.

18:52

Yeah, it'd probably be half of that, or maybe even a little bit less, but that was with cuts.

I mean, there were more kids that would come out during the summer, but quickly.

19:00

That first summer it was tough to figure everything out because the mileage was a little higher than

what I was used to.

19:06

Obviously I went from the farthest I ran at that point was probably 3 miles to I remember the first

time I ran 6 miles in a practice like all the parents had left already and the coaches were looking

19:16

for us because we took so long and and now that's like a no brainer run.

It was really my sophomore year where I really started to see progress and that was with Coach

19:26

Altovote who's the Carnival cross country coach.

He was assistant coach at the time and started a new training program for us called Pavo, which

19:33

basically you'd have two consistent recent workouts working on building your threshold is higher

mileage than any of us were used to.

19:39

But I just locked into that because I liked having a consistent day-to-day goal where it's the same

every week.

19:45

But I had a goal towards the end of this summer and I just, I remember my summer of my sophomore

year, just I just put everything into running that summer, hit my workout so hard, got my mileage up

19:57

over 45 miles a week for the first time and, and the results were amazing from there.

And obviously, I mean, it's very exhausting.

20:05

To run like that.

But that helped me establish a work ethic that I've taken past high school and college.

20:11

Yeah, sure.

So where would you run Monon?

20:14

Yeah, yeah, we did a lot of our running on the Monon.

There's the upper and lower loops on Carmel's campus here.

20:20

Which one of those had a pretty severe hill called Agony Hill?

Is what it's called.

20:24

That's.

Just straight up, I mean, it's not very long, but we'd crush that hill pretty hard, especially if we

20:30

were doing intervals.

But yeah, it was great having the Monon.

20:33

We did a workout called APPM, which was pretty much like a Max effort tempo run.

You can't even really call it a tempo run.

20:41

It's a little harder effort than that for an extended period of time.

And that would set your threshold for the season of how your workouts were were built out.

20:50

So that's what we'd be doing all through the summer, just running really, really hard miles on the

Monon.

20:54

And it was an absolute grind.

Yeah, yeah, I bet.

20:58

But but we took it seriously.

I mean everyone on the team was super locked in in that sophomore year and my junior year we won

21:04

state both years and made made it to NXN.

NXN is national.

21:10

Yeah, yeah, that's national championship in in my junior, I didn't run on the I wasn't on the squad.

I mean, I was a good runner, but I I wasn't on the the seven that ran, but we got fifth my junior

21:19

year.

So so yeah, we had a team that really bought in and just ran their ass.

21:23

That's.

Really fun.

21:24

It was.

It was awesome, Yeah.

21:25

Yeah, take us through the like winning state experience for those years.

Sure, it's kind of weird for me to say it because I didn't actually run, but you know, I, I ran with

21:34

all these guys.

Right, it's.

21:35

Your team, I mean, I trained with that top group, especially my senior year pretty consistently.

And yeah, it's just a whole another mindset.

21:43

I mean, everyone is working as hard as they possibly can work.

Everyone's eating healthy.

21:48

We'd have double up days where we'd come meet at the high school beforehand at like some of us had

to meet at the high school at like 5:00 or 6:00 AM.

21:55

And, and I know a lot of teams do that, but it it was just cool to see that collective mentality.

Of yeah, well, at a such a young age, really, I mean, high school, in high school, I was just

22:04

getting into trouble.

Yeah, right.

22:06

I, I, I still got in some trouble too.

But I, I think the most interesting thing with Carmel in particular is just that feeling of if you

22:13

slack off, get injured, whatever the case is, there's literally like 10 or 15 people in your talent

range that are ready for your spot right there.

22:22

So like you, you have to, I felt when I was training just to get recognized or to not get surpassed,

I always felt that pressure, you know, holding me to that standard where it's like if I wake up and

22:33

it's really cold and it's January and I'm not even running track, I still was out running a really

hard tempo run and 1° weather or whatever the case was because I was like, these guys are out

22:43

running track.

Someone's going to pass me up if I don't do this.

22:47

So we were all just grinding, yeah.

Yeah.

22:50

And then after high school you went to Ball State music major.

I don't know anything about the music programs in the state so but I'm assuming that Ball State has

23:01

a good program if that's where you went.

Yeah, for sure.

23:03

And there's different facets to each and.

What?

23:06

Yeah, because why not, Butler, where your parents went?

Right.

23:08

I mean in in audition at Jacobs School, NIU and Butler and Louisville and Ball State, those were

those were all mine.

23:15

I actually was a jazz, jazz trumpet players.

So that that was my kind of where my niche was at Carmel, where I really found some success and

23:24

would go to summer camps.

But yeah, that that was one thing where I was like, OK, if I want scholarship money and want to go

23:29

into music, this is what I need to look at in a bunch of great jazz programs in Indiana actually.

But Ball State just kind of it seems like the right move because somewhere like IU, you know,

23:41

there's so many talented musicians there that you get buried.

And I didn't want to get stuck with a grad student as my teacher for the first, you know, however

23:50

many years I was there where if I went to Ball State, I could have direct access to really high

level professors.

23:58

And I'm sure the same deal is Butler as well in these in these other schools.

But that's that's why I was like, this school's big enough.

24:04

The jazz department's really good here.

I'm going to learn a ton and I'll actually have individual attention here.

24:10

So majoring in music is scary.

I mean, a lot of parents would kind of shy away from their kids doing that.

24:16

I mean, my dad's had a lot of success in the music industry.

My, my mom has had success in music.

24:21

And there's, it's more just being able to finish something and really refine a skill that you're

passionate about.

24:27

I think it's going to really enhance my adult life now, being able to, you know, have some more

ability with that.

24:33

Well, and to your point earlier, talking about the parallels of running and music, right, like

consistency, the practice, the training, like it's all kind of the same in a way.

24:45

And so it sets you up for a lot of success in other areas too.

I mean, not just running in music.

24:51

So sure, when you were in college, what was your dream or what still perhaps is your dream when it

comes to music?

25:00

Sure.

So going into college, my whole thing and it's really hard because you don't have any perspective

25:06

yet.

Coming out of school, you have no clue what you're looking for, but I was like, I'm going to go to

25:11

college.

I'm going to get insanely good at trumpet, and then I'm going to be a famous trumpet player.

25:15

And I was like, yeah, that's going to happen.

Which is kind of an arrogant thing to think.

25:19

But, you know, at that point I just thought, well, this is my greatest talent at this point.

I need to just pursue this.

25:25

I quickly realized when I got there I I have always had extreme performance anxiety where I

basically would shake so bad I could barely even play my instrument at times even though I was a,

25:35

you know, talented musician.

I can relate to that.

25:37

Used to sing and, Oh yeah, in like church choir.

And I remember when I would have a solo, I would have to, like, stand so that my knees wouldn't

25:45

shake so hard that you could hear it.

Oh yeah, My voice.

25:48

Yeah.

So I can relate to that.

25:49

It's terrifying, and it's amplified so much more.

We had these things at the end of the semester called juries, where basically you had to play, you

25:57

know, a selection of classical music in front of all of the professors, all the classical

professors, which wasn't even my niche.

26:03

And they would just sit there, stone cold faces grading you while you play and sight read through

these.

26:09

And I'm just like, you know what?

I don't like this at all.

26:11

And I remember having a talk with my jazz trumpet professor, Mark Bocelli, who's the head of the

jazz program there.

26:17

He's a really notable player in Indy Here he was just like, you know, why, Why are you doing this to

yourself?

26:22

You clearly don't like performing in front of people.

It's, it's super uncomfortable in in my brain.

26:27

I was like, I just need to push through discomfort.

I can yeah figure this out.

26:32

And I, I remember having one phone call with him really late at night after I found out I hadn't

passed through my jury.

26:38

You know, I had to pass through a jury to, to get my jazz performance degree on the classical side.

And I just couldn't mentally get through it without shaking.

26:46

And he's like, and at the time I was in music production major, which is called MMP there until I

could get in to the performance side of things.

26:54

And he's just like, you should just keep doing all the jazz classes to learn, but finish out this

music production or audio engineering major so that you have more applicable skills in the industry.

0:00

So I was like, you know what, I'll just do that.

27:08

And, and that's what's turned into now my side business and, and kind of where my music career is

going.

27:14

So what it all, it all works out.

You always have this vision of how it's going to be in you.

27:19

You got to know when to let go or pivot.

And something great can come out of that, too.

27:23

Yeah, that's good advice.

And when you think about music, you think about somebody on a stage, you know, and performing.

27:29

But when it comes to producing and being like on the audio side, you can be get a room like we're in

now and doing it all and then you share it with people, but you never really have to perform.

27:41

Yeah, that's it.

So it seems pretty ideal based on what you described.

27:45

The performance anxiety.

I could go down a whole tangent of that.

27:48

I still will take Benadryl before public speaking.

Really.

27:52

Swear I will break out in hives.

I can fight through it with the adrenaline in terms of the sleepiness, but yeah, it's just I don't

28:02

like it.

But.

28:04

It's it's brutal.

It's like the nature of it.

28:06

And yeah, more and more I find myself in situations where I'm speaking and I'm like, what the hell

is this about?

28:11

I don't know when.

When have you found that repetition has helped you?

28:14

It does.

Like I think the more you do something, the more comfortable you get.

28:17

I don't think it'll ever be something I enjoy necessarily.

I mean, maybe, but yeah, it's.

28:23

That's brutal.

And, and it's funny going back to that last story when I made the switch to in, in my head realize,

28:29

OK, I'm not going to be a professional performer.

I still performed live all the time through my major and just gigging and my performance anxiety

28:37

vanished because I didn't have anything to prove to anyone anymore.

And I could just enjoy the music at that point.

28:42

And and that's what it's all about.

And and you realize most of it is just pressure you're putting on yourself.

28:48

Just like running.

Just like it's just like it really is.

28:50

Seriously, like if you're going for PR and you're like pressuring yourself and like having to

perform, you tend to fall apart more frequently than if you're just running for.

28:58

Fun.

There's no way you're sleeping the night before.

29:00

Right.

Exactly.

29:01

Exactly.

Yeah.

29:02

Which if only it was so easy to like, just tell yourself to shut it off.

But you I mean, it's not easy.

29:08

That's not how your brain works.

It's not how it works.

29:10

Yeah, if only.

And So what did you do right after college?

29:13

Yeah, so right after college, I so First off, I had been working in run specialty through college.

I did not know.

29:20

OK.

So you've been in the run specialty industry?

29:23

Yeah, this next year will be a decade.

A decade, which is wild Yeah Yeah, cuz I'm I'm 27 so that's not.

29:29

Even.

Not bad.

29:29

I know, right?

I'm like, you're not that old.

29:32

And so I came and worked at, it was Blue Mile at the time in Carmel.

I kind of wanted to get into sales in general because I like talking to people.

29:42

I have a ton of fun just engaging with people all the time.

So why not at the piano store then?

29:48

Well, yeah, exactly.

I, I worked at the piano store through, or at my dad's store through high school and a little bit of

29:54

college.

I got a great work ethic from that.

29:58

I mean, I was doing, you know, a lot of that was physical labor and making sure the store was

presentable, which was great.

30:04

Like I, yeah, I, I worked really hard there and, and, but with the sales for that, I would have

needed probably some more experience too.

30:12

And I just, I kind of wanted to go into the running industry just because I, I enjoyed it so much.

It's one of my hobbies and at that point everything I was doing was music, including college.

30:21

So I, I kind of needed something that was just just different where I yeah, yeah, it was just, it

was a little much.

30:28

So yeah, I went in, asked for a job and I, I'm pretty sure I'm the first college kid they ever hired

at that company.

30:34

You know, college employees are great.

They know a ton about running.

30:36

They have a bunch of energy.

It's really easy to teach and you you can, you can learn a ton.

30:42

But yeah, I went from there and I'd worked there through, through college, was a key holder or a

sales manager there.

30:48

And then when I left college, I was trying to figure out what I was going to do because we had just

played with our top band in Ball State.

30:54

We went to Costa Rica and toured around, played the National Theatre, played at the Jazz Kitchen,

just had a bunch of gigs back-to-back.

31:00

I played in a couple studio sessions for money just to kind of see what the what what a gigging life

would look like.

31:07

Yeah, what does that mean?

Playing a studio for money.

31:09

So for example, one of them, there's a jazz singer and basically went and played a trumpet solo on

one song, the album.

31:16

And then I did one more studio session for another local musician.

And those are crazy because it's you walk in and you sometimes you have an idea what you're playing,

31:26

but last second the singer could be like, oh, this is in the wrong key.

I need it in this key.

31:30

And then they count it off and you have to make up a solo in another key.

It it takes a really high level of, of skill.

31:37

And and I was getting there, but I was like, I don't know if I want to have to rely on this for, you

know, my income at this point.

31:45

Yeah.

Which is just, it's a lot of pressure.

31:47

So after college, I was like, OK, I'm I'm going to go back to the run store while I find a job.

And I went over to be an assistant manager at it.

31:55

It then was called Jackrabbit.

And I went over to the Broad Ripple store and that's where I met Luke.

32:00

Yeah.

And never met Luke before, who's one of my closest friends. him and I have worked at Athletic Annex

32:06

for years now.

But yeah, him and I developed a good, besides friendship, a really good working relationship.

32:12

Or we just both, we're just on each other's ass all the time trying to make each other better.

And he really, you know, he expected a lot out of me as far as setting up community events, working

32:23

on sales metrics, recruiting staff, you know, training staff.

And I was like, you know what, maybe I need to stay in this industry.

32:30

And then that Carmel store opened up, the store manager position opened up.

I was like, I'll, I'll try this out.

32:35

And Oh my God, I learned so much in that position.

So you were manager at Jack Rabbit Carmel?

32:40

OK, Yep.

So I was, yeah, I was there for.

32:43

I managed that store for about 3 years before moving over to Athletic Inn.

OK, yeah, 'cause I worked at it was the Running Company, Blue Mile, Jack Rabbit, then Fleet Feet,

32:53

and so I worked at It was Jack Rabbit.

It was Jack Rabbit, yeah.

32:57

Or no, they had been acquired but the sign attendant changed.

So I worked for Fleet feet the whole time but it was for a year.

33:02

But anyway, that was the only experience I've had in run specialty was for a year.

Yeah, that was my store for seven years.

33:08

That's crazy.

Yeah.

33:10

Wow.

And then what made you join Annex?

33:12

I mean, they are locally owned.

And as somebody who's worked in a very corporate environment and run specialty like, you can totally

33:20

see the difference now that I've had that experience.

Yeah, totally different.

33:23

We did some really great things at Jackrabbit and we had we had a good, good team and good

community.

33:28

But I was just ready for a change and I really, really liked the energy from Athletic Annex.

Luke had been recruiting me for a while.

33:35

The owners at that time, Bob, Gareth, Justin, I met all of them and was instantly like, OK, this is

this is totally different energy.

33:43

I've never met anyone who treats their employees like this and just lets people run with ideas.

And it was just I needed a change.

33:49

Yeah.

I can't believe that you that that was your store for seven years back at Jacquard because from what

33:56

I saw with like store managers, I mean, talk about a grind.

Oh yeah.

34:02

And Thankless.

And I just, I mean, so how maybe just paint a picture for people who don't necessarily understand

34:10

retail, like what your life was like then and maybe how it's different now.

Sure.

34:15

In a lot of a lot of why it was that way then too, we taking into account was we were going through

COVID, which is very, very tough in graduating out of college, taking over a store of a bunch of

34:27

employees who were older than me, who didn't necessarily, you know, didn't really know me or trust

me yet.

34:32

So I I gained their trust, got sales going, hired on staff.

And then COVID hit.

34:37

We had to furlough everyone and the yeah, we were in the backpacking orders day after day after day.

And to get our company off the ground so that we could hire back our staff that were, you know,

34:48

relied on that money, we needed to make a certain threshold of sales per day.

So Luke and I in general aren't, we've never been people who can just sit around when when it slows.

0:00

So what we did is we started just picking up phones and making sales over the phone.

35:04

So that was a cool experience.

Exactly.

35:06

Yeah.

It would like tell me.

35:09

Yeah, Honestly, just just would call custom.

I, I would just pull up reports of customers that we've, we'd had in the past and, and I, you know,

35:16

good rapport and had met a lot of customers over over the last year and a half of that time.

And I just call them, thank them for supporting the business.

35:23

And I'd look at their account, see what shoes they bought and then be like, hey, it's probably time

for some new shoes.

35:28

If you want this, I'll personally drive this to your house.

And Luke and I both did that.

35:32

Luke actually biked the shoes around Broad Ripple and we started making a daily sales average where

we could start hiring our staff back.

35:39

And we presented it to our district manager and our company and, and kind of got a little, you know,

we just picked up phones and just made it happen.

35:46

Jake, that's amazing.

Yeah.

35:47

It was a grind.

That is a grind.

35:49

Yeah.

35:51

Wow, that's really amazing.

But but the really big challenge after that was coming out of COVID, a lot of retail, you know,

35:58

restaurants, retail shops experienced, you know, really tough staffing issues from people who either

didn't want to come back to work, were afraid to come back to work for health reasons.

36:06

I mean, all the reasons made sense with how much disruption was happening, but it left us in a place

where we, we had stores where we, we just didn't have any staff.

36:16

And we're talking like no store manager, nobody.

And at this point, Luke had left over to Annex and we just had to plug gaps.

36:24

I remember driving down to Nashville, TN, working a store by myself.

My district manager was doing it too.

36:30

And I would get people to come down to an interview.

I'd go up and knock on the apartment buildings on top.

36:35

And I've got a couple part timers to come in for interviews.

But but yeah, just staffing is really tough because it's a super fun job to work and run specialty.

36:43

But I think that period of time for every company was really difficult.

And obviously, you know, Jack Rabbit got off the ground again with staffing and said to make it

36:52

work.

And yeah, it it's just it, it's a big hustle, you know, lots of 70, lots of 70 hour weeks over

36:58

there.

Yeah.

36:59

But I learned a ton.

I'm grateful for the experience.

37:02

It was great helping the community and we had a good team over there.

But yeah, it's been a huge difference coming over here.

37:06

And how long have you been with Athletic Annex?

I've been with Athletic Annex for a little over three years, OK now I think.

37:14

Yeah, yeah.

That, that sounds right.

37:17

That's right.

Yeah.

37:18

You know, even if it's not, nobody else knows.

Yeah, well, maybe some people now listening, but.

37:23

Yeah, it's it's flying by though, Yeah.

Yeah, how many locations does Annex have?

37:27

So we, we have 333 locations now and we recently have added outside sales location or workplace fit

where and Luke helped get this off the ground.

37:37

We're basically we've gone out and done corporate fittings or gone to hospitals with a bunch of

shoes that's smart set up shelves and yeah, just help fit all the employees there made it really

37:46

convenient for them.

So that's been a big focus of ours this last year.

37:51

And what's Luke's last name for people listening who might not know who he?

Is Tourmelon Yep.

37:55

So that's really interesting.

And for people who also don't know, like going into a hospital, be like, why the hell are you going

37:59

in a hospital?

Run specialty people.

38:01

It's because like Hokas and Brooks and a lot of brands have these shoes that are great for people

who are on their feet all day too, not just for running.

38:09

Yep.

Yeah, Yep.

38:10

And, and you can get pigeonholed into the the sort of store you are when people come in and they're

like, I'm not a runner, this is a running store.

38:17

Yeah, it's like we, we are running store, but like a huge portion of our customer base are people

who just need supportive shoes for walking around, work, rehabbing an injury, whatever the case is.

38:29

And we want to be the store where you're going to come in and get a really detailed experience for

people who know their stuff because we take that super seriously.

38:38

There's so much to know on the footwear wall.

The technologies using these shoes are.

38:43

It's so overwhelming as somebody who's tried like.

Yeah, yeah.

38:47

You've been in the industry.

You get it.

38:48

I've been in the industry, I feel like I know nothing still.

Like I know I'm like a little bit more knowledgeable now, but it's hard because even going through

38:56

training, then the next year everything changes again.

Got the new models, new technology, whatever, and a lot of it's baseline's pretty similar, but I

39:04

still felt like it's a lot to know.

It's a ton to know and where else are you going to come in and get an experience like that where

39:10

people understand the, the footwear to that detail.

And that's where I, I think the services industry is even more important right now because of how

39:19

successful online business is for everyone.

You, you need to come in and have someone who cares and understands the product and walk you through

39:27

it.

And that's something I think runs specialty.

39:29

We'll keep really consistent going forward and we'll be what keeps the motor rolling.

Well, I always see on like face in Facebook groups, people will be like, oh, like what kind of shoes

39:38

should I get?

Just asking people and it's and now having been and run specialty, I'm like, wow, yeah, you have.

39:44

You really can't just be like, hey, what shoes should I have?

Yeah, definitely not.

39:48

You can't do that.

You have to go in and have somebody watch you walk, watch you run, look at your feet, understand

39:55

what you're using these shoes for, what surfaces you run on, all the things.

I just had no idea.

40:00

I remember just picking shoes because they were comfortable.

But then I would be like, OK, what color do I want?

40:05

Right?

Like and you get those people still.

40:06

That kind of for sure.

Well, and that's important too.

40:08

You know you want pretty shoes, but it's like, no, you need the shoes that are right for your feet.

Yep, and that's going to be different for everyone.

40:15

Which is always hilarious when someone comes in and they're like, I want these three shoes because I

Google said these are the best 3 running shoes.

40:22

And I'm like, this may be a shoe that doesn't fit your foot at all, right?

And something that's really helped us in the last couple years here, we we got in the 3D.

40:30

Scanners.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

40:31

Which is so cool.

Oh yeah, and those have helped a ton because that because with a three-dimensional view, you can see

40:37

the instep in the arch of your foot, which associates with shoes really closely.

And all sorts of issues can be alleviated by us just putting you in the right category, making sure

40:49

your foots not squeezed, you have good blood flow, which is super important in running.

A lot of people that run who have numb feet just because they're in the wrong fit in the shoe, It's

40:58

like if you come in, we'll make sure that that's not a problem.

We can take care of that and go down to detail with that.

41:04

Now, and sometimes it's not even a new shoe, it's just tie.

Your lace is different and that specialty as well.

41:09

There's certain tricks to like, hey, it's not just that, it's that you can skip this hole here and

it alleviates the pressure that you had or whatever that.

41:16

Means that's exactly it.

And that's what helps with our staff and with like Someone Like You who's who's a runner that's

41:22

worked and run specially.

It's like you're working with people who've been through the injuries, the setbacks, the the

41:27

discomfort, getting a wrong pair of shoes, getting sold into the wrong set up in the frustration of

it.

41:32

And everyone just knows like you can skip all the BS and get right to the point because you know,

it's people who understand what the industry and the running community and walkers too.

41:42

I mean, right, have a ton of walkers, yeah.

Yeah, well, let's let's back away from Athletic Annex because I know that's like who you work for,

41:49

but obviously not who you are.

But I do have to thank them for supporting this event that's happening before the Indie mini too,

41:55

because they're sponsoring our event, which will be at the Bottom Works Hotel before.

So you should come.

42:00

Well, you're going to be at the booth probably.

Yeah.

42:02

Yeah.

I, I will have a booth for athlete bouquets at the mini Expo.

42:06

And I made sure that when I looked at the map, I'm like, OK, where's Athletic Annex?

I want to make sure I am around there.

42:12

So I am.

So I'll see you there.

42:13

Yeah, it's good.

Anyway, well, I want to go back to you and your racing stories.

42:19

So your first half was in 2019, and so how you know, obviously as a runner in high school, how did

you get back into to running?

42:29

Sure.

Part of getting back into running was working at a running store.

42:32

I just started managing that Jack rabbit.

And when you're around all all these people talking about running like it's and you're getting free

42:38

shoes from wraps or whatever the case is, of course, of course you're going to dabble in it.

I took a four year break and call it from running completely.

42:46

I was just really burnt out from, from my training and just I just needed a break because it, it

wasn't fun anymore at that point.

42:54

And sometimes it's good to just put something down for a while and then kind of fall in love with it

again.

42:59

So I got really out of shape in college.

I was in a fraternity, had a lot of fun.

43:04

Freshman 15.

And that's, yeah, yeah, I, I definitely was not good to my body for four years.

43:11

Yeah, no, I what fraternity?

I was a fight out.

43:13

OK, yeah, great.

I learned a bunch.

43:16

It was a great fraternity and all that.

But I I had a ton of fun.

43:19

Yeah, and basically was in pretty poor shape as far as respiratory and just general cardiovascular

fitness was not top tier, especially coming from where I was.

43:30

I mean, I was a machine as a, you know, at the end of high school.

But I I decided, you know what, I'm going to run the monumental half marathon and I just, I wrote

43:39

out my own training plan, didn't really know what I was doing.

I knew enough about training where I could kind of scale my long runs, have the right sort of rest

43:47

weeks, or recover at.

Least you knew that much.

43:49

Yeah, kind.

Of I never knew about rest.

43:51

Really.

But I just basically forced myself back into shape, which was really tough because I was used to a

43:57

mileage run for me in high school would be at like a 630 to 645 pace, would be like my, you know,

just my daily run.

44:03

And then I was like struggling to run like A7, like 15 or 7 flat.

But I just suffered through it and somehow I ran, I think I ran like a 12840 or something.

44:14

Huge struggle.

Yeah, but but but it got got the ball rolling again with distance running and I had a great time.

44:21

Yeah, yeah, freezing cold day.

I was kind of, I was trying to think. 2019 was so windy.

44:25

Yeah, I joined the board in 21 and so I had run the Monumental before like a handful of times, the

half before I joined the board, but I had taken a break for a while, so I did not run in 2019.

44:35

I know that, sure, But yeah.

What made you pick Monumental out of the local races?

44:40

I just ran You're just like this.

Is coming up.

44:43

I didn't train.

For this, I think one of my friends wanted to run it and I just I ran it with her and or I went went

44:49

to the race to run it and it seemed like the one with the best attendance and all all my customers

had been talking.

44:55

Right, I'm sure and.

There was a point where it's like, I haven't even ran 1/2 if I'm selling people shoes that are

45:00

running marathons like I need, I need to do this event so I can relate to them.

And then that was the same deal with my marathon.

45:06

And then ultra is like I, I don't want to talk to customers without being able to see eye to eye

about certain things.

45:11

And it makes a huge difference helping people.

It's obviously you've been there and yeah, totally.

45:16

Yep.

Right.

45:17

Yeah, I can.

I can totally see that.

45:18

So you did the monumental half 2019 and then again in 21.

Yep.

45:24

And then when was your first full?

My first full was in 2023, three, I believe.

45:31

Yeah, I ran the mill, I think.

Yeah, You ran the mill race.

45:33

I ran the mill race, yeah.

I've never done that one.

45:35

Where is that?

That one's in Columbus, IN.

45:37

Yeah, OK, not a huge race.

I think there were like 300 people that did the marathon super small pool.

45:44

The reason I ran that one, I was working with the Rachel Sanders choose my run coach for that

training block and got me through without injury is great with at annex.

45:53

Obviously we we sponsored the big races where, you know, title sponsor the brooks of the monumental.

So that week is like blocked off for, you know, management obviously, because we're grinding that

46:03

week out.

So I was like, I want to fall race.

46:06

That's kind of in the middle of everything and it was a beautiful race.

I will say I was by myself for probably like 40 to 50 minutes of the race.

46:17

And for you, that's a big chunk.

Yeah, well, and that was my first like, yeah, that was my first marathon ever.

46:21

So I was just like, but luckily I did done most of my training runs all by myself in my long run so.

That surprises me, actually.

46:28

Yeah, I love running in the group.

I like running with people, but I talk to so many people all day.

46:33

My run is where I can just be all by myself.

So I like the long run solo, yeah.

46:40

Yeah, I I can see that.

Yeah, yeah.

46:42

The the last five miles of that race, so I was like, it'd be nice if there was a bigger crowd here.

For sure.

46:47

Anybody here?

But but it was the course was great.

46:49

It was ran really smooth and yeah, it was.

You got a top ten finish in your first marathon.

46:54

Yeah.

That's so cool, yeah.

46:56

What was your finish time?

I ran a 311 something, yeah.

47:00

That's amazing.

Yeah, yeah.

47:03

I mean, yeah, I can't, can't be mad with finishing it and I wasn't going for anything crazy fast,

but I was just happy to.

47:10

I'm just glad I finished it.

Yeah, that's so great.

47:12

And, and I was, I was able to race a little bit then because I was, there was a part where you kind

of loop back around and you can count the people in front of you.

47:19

I was like, and at the time I was like, oh, shoot, I'm in 11th.

Like I need to.

47:22

I can I can crack.

This yeah, I was about to like lay down.

47:25

I was like, this sucks.

I I can't do this last four miles.

47:27

And I was like, no, no, we're racing now.

So I was able to lock in and and pick some people off which made the which made the last mile go by.

0:00

Faster, which is always helpful.

47:37

Those no one can prepare you for the until you do it the last you know, 5-6 miles of a marathon.

I'd always heard about it.

47:44

That wall is can make the most experienced runner want to just sit down.

And quit, right.

47:48

Well, it's like I go back and forth between like the wall is complete bullshit and it's also not

It's because you have to practice this like whole.

47:55

It's like such a mental block of like, you know, but at some point, I mean, for me last year at

monumental full, it was like mile, I don't know, is the last four miles like mile 22?

48:05

I just all of a sudden was like, Oh my God, I don't know if I can do this.

And then you're like, no, shut up, just suck it up.

48:12

And just, I mean, yeah, it's always going to.

Be tough.

48:15

Yeah.

Your body's crying out for help and you, you have to.

48:17

And it's in the marathon.

It's crazy because it's, you know, it's it's not like every mile you're having to reset.

48:22

It's like every couple steps.

It's like, no, no, no, you can do this.

48:25

Keep going.

48:26

Yeah, it's like.

We're in a 5K.

48:27

It's like you got, you know, 3 more minutes of hell and then you're good.

Yeah but but like which 5K are the most painful race ever?

48:34

I hate them.

Oh my gosh.

48:36

They're they're so painful.

Yeah.

48:38

I mean, if you're running all out, right.

Exactly.

48:40

But but yeah, at the end of the marathon, it's it's crazy how much you have to just coach and coach

yourself to just get your get your ass across the.

48:47

Line.

Yes, absolutely.

48:49

And so have you done another full marathon?

That's it.

48:52

OK, so then you're like, OK, I'm going to get to know my customers.

I'm going to run a half marathon, then I'm going to run a full marathon.

48:58

Yep.

And then I'm going to run an ultra marathon.

49:01

Yeah, that was that was random.

So you're just like, I'm just going to like progress into this and do it all.

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about momentarily.

OK, so then you're like, OK, I'm going to get to know my customers.

50:50

I'm going to run a half marathon, then I'm going to run a full marathon.

Yep.

50:54

And then I'm going to run an ultra marathon.

Yeah, that was that was random.

50:57

So you're just like, I'm just going to like progress into this and do it all.

Yep.

51:02

So you did Prairie on Fire last year?

I did, which is so cool.

51:06

I can't believe it sold out.

Well, I can, but I was like Dang.

51:09

Coolest race ever.

It's a backyard ultra, so tell people what a backyard ultra is.

51:13

So basically, First off, it's TJ Daly's race with Michigan Misha, Michigan Misha, there we go Track

club.

51:20

That's good because I messed it up at some very time.

But yeah, shout out TJ Daly.

51:24

He he pushed on me to join the race and it was just kind of one random day in at the beginning of

the summer and he's like, dude, just sign up.

51:32

Like, what are you doing?

51:33

Because I was like, I don't really know what I want to race next.

And I just, yeah, I signed up that day and I was like, all right.

51:38

And I just had had a number in my head.

I was just like, let's just do, I'm going to go for 12 loops.

51:43

And sorry, back to what you're saying, the backyard ultra, it's basically a format where you have a

4.2 mile loop and you need to run it every hour and then you need to be back on the start line by

51:53

the start of the next hour to continue.

So it's a last man standing race.

51:58

Yeah, man or woman?

Yeah, standing race.

52:01

Because we, I, I feel like this year is going to be yeah, we have some women that are going to blow

open the field here.

52:06

So this is going to be exciting.

But but anyway, last person standing race.

52:10

And there's a lot of strategy to it because if you run the loop too fast, you have more down time,

which sounds good, but then it's harder to get back up and your legs will start recovering or

52:20

getting tight.

But if you run it really slow or if you walk jog it and you miss the the cut, you're out.

52:26

So you really have to figure about a mental strategy of how to keep making it to the start line,

making it around with how bad your joints are hurting.

52:34

Did you practice for that?

Did you train in the?

52:36

Because I know Rachel did.

When she did it she would go out and do a 4.2 mile loop and like a plan for that.

52:42

Yeah, and Rachel trained way more seriously and a lot of people did.

I basically I was working a ton of hours that summer.

52:48

We were just really busy, which is great.

So I never ran over 10 miles leading up to that race for the full calendar year going into that

52:56

race, which is which is ridiculous.

Yeah, that's kind of boneheaded.

53:00

But my coach, he knew my schedule.

He went for Annex 2 Keegan, and he had me run 4.2 miles three times in a day where in the morning

53:09

I'd run it, in the afternoon I'd run it, and in the evening I'd run it.

So I would triple.

53:12

So instead of doubling for mileage once a week, I would triple once a week and then maybe AA second

time in the week just for just to get in my head.

53:20

We're running now, we're running again.

And it was actually even better spaced out because I wasn't dedicating the day to it.

53:26

It was more throughout my day every week where I was just like, oh shit, now we're I got to go out

and run 4.2 miles again in the midst of me doing everything.

53:34

And I think I got my head in the kind of cadence of just get back on the line.

Go.

53:39

I know it sucks.

And then I realized like, OK, after about, you know, 4 or 5 minutes of running, I'm back in the

53:45

zone.

It's going to be OK.

53:47

Because during an ultra marathon, you've got to constantly reset your brain and understand, like, I

may feel like I'm about to die right now, but in 20 minutes, if I just keep my head up, I may catch

53:56

a second wind to be fine for, you know, 15 more miles.

So it's just a constant.

54:01

Like, you just got to trust that you have that there's some light at the end of the tunnel.

Yeah.

54:06

A couple quotes to share from previous guests of this podcast. 1 would be, of course, TJ Daily.

And he said, don't quit in the chair.

54:14

Like no matter what, just get your ass up, get to the starting line, start moving, then you can

quit.

54:19

But don't just sit on your ass and give up.

And then the other one is it never always gets worse, which is Shay Aquilano shared that on the

54:26

podcast.

And it's, you know, at first I was like, excuse me, come again?

54:29

Like, I don't understand, but it made sense.

It's not going to keep getting worse.

54:33

At some point it's going to get better.

So if you can just suffer a little longer, you might get that second win to your point.

54:39

So I think about both of those things a lot.

It's good advice, especially when it comes to ultras.

54:44

I have not run an ultra, at least not yet, but I, I would like to, I think now at at first, like

when I started this podcast, I was like, I'm never going to do that.

54:53

That's insane.

And now I'm kind of like, Oh yeah.

54:56

I want to do that.

You totally should.

54:58

What if I mean, cuz, like somebody told you, hey, you're gonna go run 50 miles.

What would you?

55:02

I mean, you're like.

Yeah, well, when and I did that to myself, I was like, I'm gonna I was like 50.

55:06

Sounds cool.

Yeah.

55:07

And I was like, oh shit, that's a lot of miles.

Like, yeah.

55:10

But the best part of the ultra is the terrible anxiety that I feel before a marathon 5K, whatever

the case is, you just show up at an altar, everyone just hanging out.

55:20

No one has stressful energy.

Everyone's there for the day and they're there for an experience.

55:25

And you really can feel that.

At the beginning of the race, which which was just different than anything I'd ever experienced.

55:30

I wasn't nervous at all.

I was excited, smiling.

55:33

It was it was just an amazing vibe the whole time.

Yeah, everyone thinks that ultra runners are crazy.

55:39

It actually is such a good metaphor for the challenges you go through in your life because of that,

that sort of thing where it's like you got to keep going back to the start line and trying again and

55:49

things actually do get better even when you think you can't move anymore.

So like, physically it's, it's your physical body will, will kind of show you the the metaphor of it

55:58

because it's I can't get past this, you know, and I can keep going.

And then all the sudden you're at 50 miles.

56:04

It's like I just ran 50 miles.

That's insane.

56:06

Insane.

Well, like, I never would have thought I could do that.

56:08

Especially, yeah, as a kid who didn't think he could run at all.

But you, you end up there and you're like this, this is just consistency and, and not stopping, just

56:17

keeping in motion.

Yeah, it's good.

56:19

Have you recruited your family to run?

No, Nope.

56:23

I'm thinking like what is your mom think about?

This.

56:25

Yeah, yeah.

She's like you're.

56:26

Nuts.

You know, they're, as I said, yeah, they're, they're on the music side that, you know, they all lead

56:31

healthy lifestyles.

But yeah, the running thing is just me and my cousin's the head coach at Ben Davis for cross

56:37

country.

And my, my aunt coach is there too.

56:39

So there's running in my family.

But yeah, I'm the, I'm kind of the lone in your, in your.

56:45

Immediate family.

Yeah.

56:46

So for Prairie on Fire, what did you do when you sat down in the chair?

Like when you're OK, you're finished with the loop.

56:53

Bring us to the experience of what you would do between.

What is it called?

56:57

What are they called?

Yards Yard.

56:59

Between.

Yards.

57:00

Yep.

So I ran all of my legs a little faster.

57:05

Just, I don't know why.

It just felt better to get it done a little quicker.

57:09

So I had a lot of time.

I didn't really sit down that much.

57:13

I tried to kind of keep my legs moving a bit.

I'd roll out my legs.

57:16

I ate a ton of Chick-fil-A, So much Chick-fil-A.

That's awesome.

57:19

Oh my gosh.

Because, I mean, you just eat anything.

57:22

And I always love talking about the food at old cost because I think that's what'll get me sure to

do it.

57:27

Yeah, no, it's, it's good.

And and you know, you just got to stay ahead of your calories.

57:32

You don't want to be catching up.

Yeah, But yeah.

57:34

And I think the most interesting thing, and this is where experience in running comes in and

understanding your body and the problems really started after the marathon where I started to feel

57:44

like, Oh my gosh, my Achilles tendon feels like it's going to tear or like I'm getting severe IT

band pain.

57:49

It's getting worse every 5 minutes.

I don't know if I'm going to be able to walk to the start line again.

57:54

But out of my experience with athletic Annex working with PTS, whatever the case is, I know the sort

of things I need to do.

58:01

So sometimes it would be I'd be doing, you know, mobility things for my ankle or be stretching out

my hips or be doing glute exercises just to make sure I'm like, I know this is happening because my

58:11

glutes aren't firing evenly right now or my calf is working too hard right now.

And even the runners there will help you a ton.

58:18

Like, my quads are getting incredibly tired.

Yeah.

58:21

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

You know, my hamstrings were getting tired and running up that last hill was really painful.

58:27

And I saw some runners running backwards up the hill.

And I was like, why are you running backwards?

58:31

They're like, you need to use different muscle groups.

You have unused muscles.

58:35

And I was like, oh, I didn't even think of that.

That's wild.

58:37

So that that saved my butt on a bunch of stuff.

Because then you're engaging different muscles, letting that muscle rest.

58:44

I would fall on my ass trying.

To back up a hill.

58:46

Oh, yeah, I'm sure someone did.

But but we just all started doing that and it it worked.

58:51

Yeah.

And we did.

58:51

We had such a good group.

So many people went over 100 miles.

58:55

It's wild.

It's yeah, I think everyone was just trying to help each other and, you know, you go and talk to

59:00

someone, be like, I'm having a lot of pain here.

They're like, here, try this.

59:03

I've Icy hot back at the place.

I, I think I, I drank a couple high noons in there here and there towards the end just to be like,

59:10

you know, I just need to get my mind off.

Of this and yeah.

59:13

And get my legs to feel better.

Then stop.

59:15

Stop worrying so much.

Because then the more relaxed I ran, the better.

59:19

Yeah, the better I did, right.

I don't, I don't condone drinking on it, but Right.

59:23

But but in the moment, you just kind of do what?

You well, and a high noon is not like it's not like you're yeah yeah, doing shots of tequila.

59:30

Yeah, I'm not.

I'm not going.

59:31

I've done.

Full acting.

59:33

I think I've done a fire.

I've done a fireball shot for sure.

59:36

Yeah.

During a half marathon.

59:37

And what was it?

I think it was Carmel.

59:40

Was it Carmel?

They had the Fishers Running club was out there, or maybe it was Sam Costa.

59:44

I don't know.

But they were like little margaritas.

59:47

And I did that once.

Yeah.

59:49

And it does it like in a way, like kind of just gives you a little bit of relief and.

Sure, yeah, definitely not for everyone.

59:54

But you know, you know, in the, in the like, it's an experience you're going through.

You kind of just you just got to try things and see what works.

1:00:00

Exactly.

And what does not so?

1:00:01

What doesn't work?

There's been moments where I like, oh, that was really bad, yeah.

1:00:05

That's a dumb idea, but you know what?

You learn and go from there.

1:00:08

Yeah, Yeah, there was a film made.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

1:00:12

Yeah, so they made a documentary called Chasing 100.

John Coon, TJ kind of Co made the film and John shot all the film and and piece it together.

1:00:23

But it basically was just a kind of cover the athletes going for 100 miles and passing it.

I I was one of the people that they featured in the film, which was just kind of random.

1:00:32

I mean, I wasn't going.

For 100.

1:00:33

Yeah, yeah, it was cool to see that.

And I think that's a great marketing tool to be able to physically see what you're getting into and

1:00:41

just to be able to see, Oh, everyone is, these are all just normal people.

Like I can do this.

1:00:46

And and you don't know you can do it until you just sign out for one and go try it out, right.

So I, I think that helped fill up that race quick in the Katui Park where it's that's beautiful.

1:00:55

Oh, it's like perfect for that.

Event it, it looks absolutely incredible and so if if you have not watched the film, go watch it.

1:01:01

It's on YouTube.

Yeah, almost had 100,000 views.

1:01:04

Yeah, yeah, it's popped off.

Yeah, and John is on my list to interview on this podcast.

1:01:09

He's not been on here yet.

I have not met him in person.

1:01:12

I did run by him one time, yeah.

It was crazy, like just we were out on a like in Westfield of all places.

1:01:17

And I've seen him and he's just so talented.

Oh, he's great.

1:01:20

Yeah.

And I'm, I'm so glad that TJ, TJ and him can work together because because it's I really think the

1:01:25

ultra marathons are such a like a hidden.

This is just people who go out in the forest and no one knows.

1:01:31

Like people don't can't really like understand.

I think these have helped.

1:01:34

Yeah, this has totally opened it up to the public where it's like like, no, anyone can do this.

Yeah, I never would have thought I would run an ultra marathon.

1:01:41

Now it's like, OK, I want to double my distance next year.

You know.

1:01:44

What I mean, Yeah, I think I can do.

It right I mean I know you can do it so and Caitlin TJ's daughter yeah yeah who is just like

1:01:50

crushing it insane I'm like holy cow I remember at the event at annex that Christy D helped put on

for safety I brought my girls there and I remember introducing my daughter Sydney to Caitlin and

1:02:01

being like Caitlin ran like 30 some miles of the.

Day or like.

1:02:05

You know, in Sydney, it's just kind of like what?

Yeah.

1:02:08

So yeah.

OK, so now congratulations on becoming an ultra marathoner.

1:02:13

Yes.

So freaking cool.

1:02:14

It's weird to hear that.

Yeah, yeah.

1:02:16

I mean, it's crazy being immersed in running, because I feel like it's harder to accept some of

those compliments because in the running world, there's always somebody crazier, there's always

1:02:26

somebody faster.

But like, in the normal everyday world, it's insane, yeah.

1:02:31

So insane.

And that's how everything is, right?

1:02:34

Yeah.

And until you do it, it's just like, yeah, some unattainable or really cool thing.

1:02:39

And then once you do it, you're like, what's next?

You're like, wow, OK, so like I'm going to go for it.

1:02:43

So to that end, what do you have on the race calendar for this year?

Yeah.

1:02:48

So I just started, I lifted through the winter, just started getting kind of put together training

block I I'm just going to get get into kind of general fitness, hopefully do a trying to run a fast

1:02:59

half towards the fall and then pray around fire again.

And yeah, I'd love to go at least 100K.

1:03:05

But also setting a distance is stupid.

I need to just go in and go as long as I can.

1:03:09

Right, that's.

OK.

1:03:10

I want to limit myself with that.

Yeah, so.

1:03:13

Yeah, the mental game there.

You know when you run a half or you run a marathon, it's like you know when the finish is, but like

1:03:19

the idea that you walk into it not necessarily knowing what you're capable of that day.

It's pretty cool.

1:03:25

And if you're having a terrible day, you can just stop, you know, it's, it's that takes so much

pressure off of it and that actually makes you go further, which which, which is funny.

1:03:34

I need to use that mentality everywhere.

And I think a lot of runners should do that.

1:03:37

Show up to the line, Don't put pressure on yourself.

Just see what happens.

1:03:41

And and I think everyone would run so much better and just have better performances if that's the

case.

1:03:46

But it's so much easier said than done.

But an ultra marathon like that will show you in your head, OK, this is proven.

1:03:51

Yeah, I I like go expectations and I did something I didn't think my body could do so that that

could be the case for anything.

1:03:59

Right.

Absolutely.

1:04:00

Yeah, Yeah.

So good luck.

1:04:02

I'll be cheering you on.

I'm going to come spectate.

1:04:04

Probably it, yeah.

It's gonna be funnier.

1:04:06

Yeah, I mean, just watching that film and like bringing it to light, you're like, this is such a

cool environment.

1:04:11

I want to be a part of that.

Yeah.

1:04:13

So let's talk about music.

Cool.

1:04:16

Want to?

1:04:17

Talk about music.

I want to nerd out with you because.

1:04:19

Good enough time.

We have enough time.

1:04:21

OK, good, we do.

So obviously we now know how you got into music and how you got into like the producing side.

1:04:28

But you're doing some really cool stuff, like you're an artist on Spotify.

Why?

1:04:32

You've got music up there that's so freaking cool.

I don't think I know anybody else who has music on Spotify.

1:04:39

Yeah, it's scary putting out music.

It really is right?

1:04:43

Yeah, but I was like listening to some of your stuff and I'm like, man, I can get down to some of

this.

1:04:46

I need to be playing this while I'm working in my office.

That's, you know, like it's really great.

1:04:51

And so I guess I don't know really where to start, but like, can you talk to people about what

you're doing now with music?

1:04:58

Sure.

And, and maybe I should pull up what you made for me and we should listen to, we should listen to it

1:05:02

together.

And then you can talk to me about how your brain works when it comes to creating.

1:05:05

Sure.

Yeah, that's cool.

1:05:07

Yeah.

So right now in the past year or so, obviously it's tough because with Athletic Amex right now, I

1:05:13

just opened a new store 2 years ago in Carmel.

Yeah.

1:05:16

And that takes a ton of time getting store off the ground you just got to put a lot of hours into.

It it's in, it's amazing if you.

1:05:23

Haven't met.

Yeah, yeah, right in between Warby Parker, GameStop, we're we have a blast there, but Bill Nydap

1:05:28

takes a lot of time.

So any of my remaining energy or time's been put into some projects.

1:05:33

It's funny, actually.

Luke's wife, Achille, Her her artist name's Achille NI.

1:05:38

Molly and I met her at Ball State in the jazz program.

Week before Luke.

1:05:43

Yeah, I introduced him.

Well, kind of like she met him through through.

1:05:47

Me.

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

1:05:48

Yeah.

Because I noticed that she was married to Luke.

1:05:50

And then I was like, wait a minute, What's happening there?

I need this story.

1:05:54

Connecting the dots here, but yeah, she, she and I started making, we, we went to on that Costa Rica

kind of tour with Ball Saints band and, and we started making music together afterwards.

1:06:05

Or I would play all the instruments and produce instrumentals.

And she's a great songwriter, writes an amazing vocalist.

1:06:11

I mean really, really high level vocalist, but she would write songs to beats I made or I'd make a

beat based off of her songs and we put out an EP or she she put out an EP and I I did all the mixing

1:06:23

mastering.

What does EP mean?

1:06:25

Extended play, so an EP like a full length album, maybe like 8 to 10 songs and EP will be like 5 to

6 songs.

1:06:31

Then I produce a lot of the music on there and that's actually having a lot of success right now.

I think her top track on there is at like 160,000 streams and she's having a lot of personal success

1:06:41

through, you know, her.

She's a really talented actress too.

1:06:45

But basically working on that right now.

I'm, we're working on some more music now and then I've done all sorts of stuff.

1:06:51

I've I made music for little Instagram ads, like little 15 second clips, my main music for

audiobooks.

1:06:58

I've ghost produced beats for house and EDM producers.

That's cool.

1:07:02

It's cool.

Except if one blows up, I have no rights to it and that's my fault.

1:07:07

I know what to yeah, I know how to kind of negotiate with that now.

But yeah and yeah, I'm trying to think and then podcast interest too.

1:07:14

That's something I've done for a couple people now and that's just kind of fun cuz with my job I

have enough time to do that where I can make, you know, a 32nd snippet versus making a whole album

1:07:25

or a piece.

That's the way where I still can be creative, you know, you know, make some money on the side and

1:07:31

it's fun.

Yeah, what do you, what software do you use to produce?

1:07:35

I use Logic Pro X which is basically Garage Band Pro.

So yes, it's Apple's version.

1:07:42

Got it.

It's probably it's called a DAW or digital audio workstation.

1:07:46

OK.

And it's probably one of the most difficult ones to use as far as just the interface, but you can do

1:07:51

a ton with it.

Yeah.

1:07:53

So that's been a whole journey in itself.

Learning, I can only imagine, as you and I were talking about before this, I was like, so yeah,

1:07:58

these are the settings that I used because I googled it and was like, what settings?

Do it's okay to garage?

1:08:04

Band.

Yeah, it's funny.

1:08:05

I learned a ton from my degree.

The rest I learned from YouTube.

1:08:09

Ride on YouTube videos.

1:08:10

The amount of YouTube I've watched since starting athlete bouquets is astounding.

Yeah, because I've learned.

1:08:15

It's so helpful.

Yeah, it is very.

1:08:16

Helpful.

You just, you got to know the language and vocabulary of whatever you're doing and then and then

1:08:21

because if not, you'll get buried in all the videos.

But if then you specifically can go and learn from theirs.

1:08:27

Yeah, yeah.

My least favorite thing, my gripe with it is that you'll start watching something you think is

1:08:31

helpful and then it turns into like it's a commercial for a specific software.

Yeah, yeah, you're like, God damn it.

1:08:35

It's like all you need is this 1000.

And I'm like, no, I just did you tell me how to do that?

1:08:40

How did I get suckered into this?

Yep.

1:08:43

Yeah.

1:08:43

So.

OK, so maybe just talk about your process of making music.

1:08:48

So you said, like with Akili, you're sometimes she has a song that she has in her head and then you

produce music alongside of it.

1:08:55

But sometimes you have a beat already.

Yeah.

1:08:57

And then she can put lyrics to that.

Yeah, and.

1:09:00

How does that work?

That's interesting.

1:09:01

That's pretty common in in kind of the producer space.

I think what kind of makes me unique is usually producers will put out a a bunch of beats and

1:09:09

artists will buy them, write songs to it.

But I can kind of reverse engineer it a little bit.

1:09:14

And I've done that with several artists.

But but Achille will write a song that she's written on piano or or guitar, or maybe I've like a

1:09:21

kind of basic beat, or she'll make a base, she'll make a beat to base it off of, and then I'll build

out the entire soundtrack behind it.

1:09:28

And then she'll rerecord vocals to that and mix it all in.

So crazy.

1:09:33

So I mean, there's so many ways to go around about it.

You just got to be really creative.

1:09:37

Yeah.

Like, how do you agree that a song is done?

1:09:40

That's got to be the hardest.

Thing so hard I mean you you just have to you got to set deadlines for yourself honestly and that

1:09:47

that's what'll help where and she does a great job of this There's there's other artists I've worked

with who will want a lot more revisions but like yeah we we both will get to a place where like this

1:09:56

thing's ready.

Can it be mixed more can we add more sure.

1:10:00

But like that, then it's just going to sit, we need this.

She needs to put this out to get energy and have listeners here.

1:10:07

And it's, you know, it's good.

And plus you progress as an artist.

1:10:11

So you got to just be honest with where you're at at the time.

And it's crazy listening to like even the first things we put out to now, it's like the qualities,

1:10:19

the change in quality is awesome.

And I'll listen to a music I made for an ad when I was right out of college compared to now.

1:10:25

And I was like, Oh my God, why did someone buy that?

But yeah, but you just keep getting better, just like running or anything.

1:10:31

You just keep consistently work at it and you'll see a lot of progress.

What's the marketplace for selling your music?

1:10:39

Very difficult.

Yeah, I was like, where do you even do that?

1:10:42

Yeah, that's where you got to get creative.

I mean, a lot of mine is just connections.

1:10:46

I went to music school, so I have some, you know, I have connections through music school.

But also for me, it's like I meet people at Athletic Annex, I meet customers of my dad's or I'll

1:10:57

just I'll be at, you know, out at an event or at a bar and talk to someone and they're like, Oh

yeah, I need audio cleaned up for this, you know, for this conference we just did.

1:11:06

And there's this whistling noise.

I'm like, I can take care of that.

1:11:08

Or if someone thus you're like, I heard that you make podcasts.

And for music from Allison.

1:11:12

Thank you, Allison.

Yeah, yeah.

1:11:13

Thanks Allison for the plug.

But things like that you just get reached out to and I used to use up work a lot too.

1:11:19

That's what I was.

I was thinking of places like that.

1:11:21

I was trying to think of where I bought the music that I have right now.

Yeah, you told me or there will be like a leasing sites where there will be instrumentals that you

1:11:30

can lease for exclusive, exclusive rights.

Yeah.

1:11:33

Like that's what I did, I think.

I like.

1:11:34

That's probably what you.

Did and I just don't remember which one, but I was like, okay, well, I'll just go on here and like

1:11:39

listen to a bunch of them, see what sounds good.

And then, you know, I just, I'm trying to find, as I told you, I'm like, I just want something that

1:11:46

sounds more like me.

Yep, I don't know if this makes sense, but what I'm trying to be, I'm like, I don't want to be this

1:11:52

cheesy motivational speaker.

That's not at all who I am.

1:11:54

And so, and I feel like the intro of my podcast is kind of like that.

Sure.

1:11:58

So I'm like, I got to mix this up.

That's it.

1:12:01

Well, and that's where I think something like that's important because I can, I can listen to what

you want and then kind of tailor it to there.

1:12:08

And then you can make revisions.

And then once, yeah, you want something that matches, matches your your vibe and energy.

1:12:14

Yeah, OK.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull out the report.

1:12:17

I know this is a very rough one.

Well, I just think it would be.

1:12:20

I think it's so fun.

Well, you're like, tell me what to change.

1:12:22

Here's my problem.

I don't know how to even tell you that.

1:12:26

Yeah.

I mean, I was like, oh, it sounds great.

1:12:28

And when I, when I make something like this, I'm always thinking of someone talking over it.

So I try to make something a little bit like kind of sunnier, kind of like a pop rock vibe, but that

1:12:38

I could hear someone's voice being like, welcome to this, right, You know?

OK, I got it.

1:12:41

But very rough demo.

So cool.

1:12:47

Welcome to the finished lines of Oh So Yeah.

Yeah.

1:12:52

Right, I can hear, I could hear the Tegan and Sarah.

Yeah, mixed with kind of little bit of YouTube words in there.

1:13:00

Like how do you even like the little sounds in the back?

Like how do you even know how to put all that together?

1:13:07

I just.

I usually start with a guitar.

1:13:09

OK, to be honest, I do.

I write on really quickly on a guitar just to get kind of bass chord progression.

1:13:15

And then yeah, I have a lot of sound plugins where I've created my own sounds already.

Own sounds.

1:13:20

Oh yeah, yeah.

It's basically like any EDM producer.

1:13:23

It's sound synthesis is what it's called.

We're basically, Yeah, it's, I won't even go, I won't go down that rabbit hole.

1:13:29

But but, but you know, you, you learn how to kind of modulate, you know, certain, certain sounds or,

or sense to sound exactly how you want.

1:13:37

So I have this huge library of sounds I've created or I'll just, I'll kind of get a melody in my

head and then I'll just run through.

1:13:43

I mean, you would not even believe even trying to find the right drum sound.

I'm sure there's a lot of memes on the Internet about this, but of just going down the list, trying

1:13:51

to find that exact snare sound or whatever.

But but I just go, I try to find something that sounds good but a little different from everything

1:13:58

else to make it unique in that and then go with it.

And if I send it to someone, they're like, oh, I don't like that sound.

1:14:04

That's fine.

I'm not offended.

1:14:05

It's for the person who I'm working with, so.

And then I could see how like to back to that.

1:14:09

I could be like, OK, I like where we're going with this.

Let me record an intro like I would and then have you hear the cadence and speed of my voice because

1:14:18

I think that makes a difference with the one I have now.

It's kind of funny.

1:14:21

You're like, I'm like trying to make it sound good.

It's just, it's such an art that I never would have, never would have thought that I'd be trying to

1:14:29

master.

Sure.

1:14:30

Or not master, but all that's important because if you think about it, that the intro music is what

that's where you, that moment is when you lose or keep people, right?

1:14:38

And then if they like your podcasts, they'll associate that music, right?

Which is cool because like, you know, there's a lot of famous podcasts where it's like, I hear that

1:14:45

intro music.

I'm like, Oh, I'm about to hear some crazy stuff.

1:14:48

On this podcast.

Like, you know, associates with your brain, Yeah.

1:14:51

So well, and my friend Lindsay Hyne has had her music, I think the same for like all almost like 600

episodes she had, which is amazing.

1:14:58

And then I'm like, wow, am I too much of A perfectionist?

But I don't you know what?

1:15:01

Nobody, nobody cares if I change it because I don't think anybody's like married to anything.

So I'm like I want it to be the best I can have a. 100% Why not?

1:15:09

Why not?

That's fun.

1:15:10

And not only that, help and support somebody in the local running community.

He's like, hey, yeah, I appreciate it so.

1:15:16

Cool, because it's like, look at us making this like in the Carmel library and.

Then that's exactly.

1:15:21

Your music, it's just so fun and.

That's what's fun about the, I feel like the running community in in general, like people just

1:15:27

really try to support each other and whatever they're doing and you know, you can see it with your

business and Rachel or Christy D coaching or what you know, whoever it is, it's like it's

1:15:36

everything's integrated.

It's so amazing and I don't know, I'm sure you feel it, but like the energy of like launching into

1:15:41

spring race season is just, oh, it's awesome.

The best, Yeah.

1:15:44

It's awesome seeing people on the Monon starting to train and they're like, I'm finally out here

again, right.

1:15:48

This is why I was feeling sad all winter.

Everything's.

1:15:51

Everything's going to be good.

It's.

1:15:52

Like now we're outside.

Yeah, well, let's let's do the end of the podcast questions.

1:15:57

Sure.

I can't believe we're here.

1:15:58

Yeah.

It's like boom, it happened so fast.

1:16:00

Yeah, that's quick.

Yeah, so I guess a good segue because we're just talked about music, but what is your favorite

1:16:05

running song and or mantra?

Sure.

1:16:08

It's funny.

I'm probably the polar opposite of most people with running music.

1:16:12

I listen to incredibly relaxing ambient music when I run.

Yeah, so like there's an artist called Tycho, I don't know if you've heard him before, but a lot of

1:16:22

people would use that as like study music.

And I studied all through college to to him.

1:16:26

But I'll listen to either that I've listened to classical before, but mainly just really slow chill

music because it helps me zone out and I get my heart rate down and, and get my breathing just

1:16:37

really smooth.

Like I, I can't listen to, you know, I mean, I love listening to yeah, what would I do?

1:16:42

But but yeah, like, like if I'm at the end of the race, I'll listen to, you know, like Schoolboy Q

or Linkin Park or something to, to get me going.

1:16:49

But like, you can't do that a whole marathon or you're gonna, you're gonna go too hard or.

That's funny because that's pretty much it's like, OK, let me put all my Amp Up songs in one

1:16:56

playlist.

No, when I, when I start running, I just, I mean, it sounds corny to get into a flow state, but I

1:17:01

really just, I want my mind to just wander and then it's like, oh, I'm 15 miles in street that's

done so.

1:17:07

No, it sounds smart is what it sounds like.

Yeah, random quick question, what is lo fi?

1:17:11

What does that mean?

Yeah.

1:17:12

So Lo Fi is basically it's kind of based off EQ.

If I don't know if you've heard of EQ before, I don't know what that means either, man.

1:17:18

This is hard to explain.

Basically you're rolling, you're rolling off all the high end of an audio signal.

1:17:24

Or for example, like if you hear a Lo fi beat, it's it's more muted.

So you're taking all the higher frequencies up here, you're rolling it off and it'll make it sound

1:17:32

kind of like a kind of like cozy, if that makes sense.

And then some people will add some like audio crackle to make it sound like it's coming out of like

1:17:39

a vinyl player or something like that.

That's like low fi beats, but low fi in general.

1:17:43

Just yeah, kind of like a more like muted warmer kind of style of sound.

OK, and that that may not not be right for every lo fi music, but like for for what you're in.

1:17:54

Yeah, in most.

Cases I see you, you know a lot of what you're doing.

1:17:57

It's like lo fi I'm.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:17:58

Like on my YouTube channel, that's those are like study, study instrumentals.

OK, I make those just cause like I really, that really helped me when I was in college, especially

1:18:07

as someone with ADHD.

Yeah, just have something that slows everything down and is kind of a little more repetitive.

1:18:13

Yeah, so as I'm trying to make more content on Instagram, can I use your music for reals and stuff

like that?

1:18:18

Oh, for sure.

For sure.

1:18:19

Yeah, OK.

That's cool.

1:18:20

Actually go look and like prioritize.

You I need to put that stuff on Spotify, but yeah, that's all just on YouTube right now, yeah.

1:18:27

Yeah, you could just got to like put a ton of that out.

You would not believe it too my on my computer I have.

1:18:31

Sorry, I didn't mean to cut.

You off?

1:18:32

No, you're.

Good.

1:18:33

In my computer, I probably have 600 just uncooked songs that are almost there.

And.

1:18:37

And this year I'm like, OK, I need to just.

I need to crank them out.

1:18:40

All these.

Yeah.

1:18:42

That's so hard.

Well, like we were just talking about, it's like, how do you know when it's done?

1:18:44

Well, it's like pretty much never done.

You just got.

1:18:47

To got to put it out or it's just going to rot on my computer or I'm going to lose a hard drive and

and you know, that'll be that idea will be gone.

1:18:54

Yeah, it's a great idea.

Yeah, should be out there.

1:18:57

Yeah.

OK.

1:18:58

And the next, we already kind of talked about your next finish line or milestone.

Yeah, because this year, fast half in the fall.

1:19:04

Prairie on Fire.

What date?

1:19:05

What's the date of Prairie on Fire put you on the spot?

I think it's first week of September.

1:19:09

Yeah.

1:19:10

So which is, which is a lot of high heat miles, which I love.

I love running in the heat.

1:19:16

You do.

Oh, yeah.

1:19:17

Because then when it gets cool, like I feel like your heart rate's used a little higher stress and

then it gets cool.

1:19:22

It's like oxygen overload.

I guess that is somewhat fair.

1:19:26

Like there's definitely more suffering, yeah.

But like, I don't know, I like coming back from like a 10 mile run in like 90° weather and just

1:19:33

being drenched and being like, alright, I did something today.

That does feel really good.

1:19:37

I have never run a spring marathon for that reason because I feel like I've trained, I can train

really hard in the heat, yeah.

1:19:45

And then do well in the cool environment versus the opposite where you're like always in a cool

environment and then all of a sudden your spring race is like 80°.

1:19:52

I mean I.

Would that's it one.

1:19:54

And yeah, then you're, yeah, you're you're laboring a little bit more, right to get the same result.

Yeah.

1:19:59

Because you've been running in cooler weather.

Yeah.

1:20:01

Yeah.

What are some bucket lists like races and stuff that you want to do?

1:20:05

Have you ever done a race outside of Indiana?

Well, besides in high like in high school, yeah.

1:20:09

Rams and meats outside.

Honestly, for me, it would be great to do destination races.

1:20:14

I would love to do one out in California and run through the redwoods.

That'd be cool doing a really difficult trail ultra marathon always been on my list.

1:20:23

I I think right now it's more speed.

I I I know I have a little window here when where my physical, you know, kind of prime will be with

1:20:31

with speed work.

So there's, you know, in the next couple years.

1:20:35

It's my kind of goals.

I'd love to break 120 in the half, which I'm I'm going to need to stack a couple years to do that.

1:20:41

That's a you know, that's a tough that's a tough standard.

Be cool to go back and break 17 in the five Ki was trying to do that right after my right after my

1:20:50

50 Miller I ran the Zionsville 5K and I think I ran like a 1740 yeah and then I wanted to keep

training but I was it got too cold I.

1:20:58

Was like, yeah, I'm like, OK, well, I mean that's the good thing is that you're young.

You got yeah, all kinds of time.

1:21:04

I also feel like, yeah, you got.

So you got a lot of time hopefully, right.

1:21:07

I mean it's like yeah, the Masters guys here and women are just incredible.

Yeah, so it's just like.

1:21:13

Oh, they're crushing it.

Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah.

1:21:15

It's crazy talking to customers who are like, you know, I talk to customers who are obviously quite

a bit older than me, but they're, they're so consistent with, they're training, they're so

1:21:22

motivated, they know they're going to get faster.

And I'm just like, we, I feel like we just set such limitations on ourself.

1:21:28

And, and also was something I've noticed.

These are people who take, take their bodies really seriously.

1:21:33

Like they, you know, they do the strength and conditioning, they eat healthy, they do everything to

put their joints and, you know, support their joints, you know, and it's like there's there's no

1:21:42

reason to obviously things happen, but like, you know, I want to still be running hard when I'm, you

know, my 40s and 50s and.

1:21:49

Me too.

Love it.

1:21:50

Yeah, same.

Yeah, but which I know, I know the body breaks down a little bit, but there's a way to, you know, I

1:21:57

never want to make excuses with it.

I want to do the right thing.

1:22:00

Yeah.

Which is hard when you get busy.

1:22:02

So very hard.

It is so hard.

1:22:04

Absolutely.

Oh, I'm so glad that I got to get to know you today, Jake.

1:22:08

Yeah, yeah, it was super fun.

Yeah.

1:22:10

First podcast I've been on SO.

Which I can't believe.

1:22:12

Like let me talk about this, Luke.

Like what in the?

1:22:14

World.

Yeah, Come on, Luke.

1:22:15

I was looking.

I did.

1:22:16

I Googled.

I almost texted you to be like, where?

1:22:18

Why?

Where's the podcast episode that Luke had you on?

1:22:21

Uh huh.

I was I Luke, do you hear me?

1:22:23

It's OK.

I googled and I didn't fight.

1:22:25

I'm like it's.

A competition now?

1:22:26

Wait, so I get to be the first, which is the best?

I, it's my favorite thing is when people have not ever been on a podcast because it's like, it's so

1:22:34

it's such a fun experience.

And it's also not nearly as terrifying as it seems because definitely not.

1:22:38

Yeah, hopefully anyway.

I don't know.

1:22:40

Yes, this is great.

Well, thank you and thank you to everybody who has listened and happy running.

1:22:47

Absolutely.

Hooray.

1:22:48

If you enjoyed this episode of the Finish Lines and Milestones podcast from Sandy Boy Productions,

please go share, rate and review.

1:22:57

It means a lot.

It helps other people find this show.

1:23:00

And if you don't already follow me on Instagram, I'm Ally ALYT, Brett, Bret, Ally T Brett under

score runs.

1:23:08

I will see you next week.

Thanks for listening.

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