Finish Lines & Milestones: Episode 105: Maury Plambeck - Planning Cities and Planning Marathons

April 25, 2025

Here's a link to listen to this week's episode.

Guest: Maury Plambeck

Show Notes:

Maury Plambeck⁠ (pronounced PLAM-beck) and I met when I joined the Board of Directors for ⁠Beyond Monumental⁠, the organization behind the CNO Indianapolis Monumental Marathon.

During this episode, sponsored by ⁠Previnex⁠ and ⁠BITCHSTIX⁠, we talk about:

How we met
His time in city planning (not planting!) and how it brought him to Indianapolis
How his mom is 89 and still can ride a bike and walks every day
Farm life growing up and learning to drive a tractor at less than 10 years old
When running came into the picture after college as a stress reliever
His first Indy Mini in 1990-1991 and how he ran 24 in a row!
Why he always runs with pacers
Signing up for his first marathon without really thinking too much about it
Qualifying for Boston but not signing up on time only to requalify and run his first Boston Marathon in 2013, the year of the Boston bombing
And his second Boston Marathon was 2018 “the horrible weather and Des Linden year”
How he runs six days a week no matter what
The local ⁠RUN(317)⁠ race series he does every year (prices go up 5/1)
Getting involved with Back on My Feet Indianapolis THIRTEEN years ago
Everything else Maury does to give back to the Indianapolis community
Meeting his husband, Sam. They’ve been together for 38 years.
Why as runners we need to volunteer and give back to the running community
His coming out story that he and Sam recently shared with their Lutheran Church
⁠The Fox Hollow Farm documentary on Hulu⁠ (if you don’t know, there was a serial killer in the early 90s in Indianapolis targeting gay men)
How he got roped into some very long bike rides by a good friend

00:37 Boston Marathon and Carmel Marathon Updates

02:21 Gearing Up for the Indy Mini

03:42 Guest Introduction: Maury Plambeck

06:17 Maury's Background and Early Life

09:00 City Planning Career and Move to Indianapolis

27:38 Running Journey and Mini Marathon Experiences

34:05 Reflecting on Running Habits

34:38 First Marathon Experience

36:38 Qualifying for Boston Marathon

38:01 The Boston Marathon Bombing

42:54 Running in Extreme Weather

48:52 Back on My Feet Organization

56:40 Volunteering and Community Involvement

01:01:27 A Night Out in Cheyenne

01:02:02 Meeting Sam and Moving to Indianapolis

01:02:34 Sam's AIDS Diagnosis and the Damian Center

01:05:34 Volunteering and Community Involvement

01:07:13 Sam's Resilience and Support System

01:11:04 Coming Out and Family Acceptance

01:15:09 Fox Hollow Farm Murders

01:21:07 Biking Adventures and Future Plans

01:31:40 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Sponsor Details:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Previnex⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - ALLY15 for 15% off your first order
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BITCHSTIX⁠ - ALLYB for 20% off your order

Episode Transcript

:00

This is a Sandy Boy Productions podcast.

Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones.

0:20

I'm your host, Ali Brett Hooker, and if you run, you're a runner and every runner has a story, which

is why I created this podcast to help share those stories from all different runners.

0:31

Join me each week.

As we celebrate milestones and cross finish lines.

0:36

Together.

O first of all.

0:38

Huge.

Huge, huge congratulations to all of the Boston Marathon finishers.

0:43

As I record this, Boston was just on Monday.

It is now Thursday and I still am just scrolling through my feed, liking every Boston photo that I

0:53

see.

Hope to get there someday, but I hope for everybody who was there that you had a great race.

0:58

Too many people to name because then I'll forget somebody and feel horrible about it.

And then Speaking of feeling horrible about it, the Carmel Marathon, which was supposed to be last

1:08

Saturday, was cancelled thanks to thunderstorms in the area.

And it was just the worst possible scenario, the worst timing.

1:16

And I worked the Expo all day on Friday from 9:00 to 9:00, met so many incredible people, first time

marathoners.

1:23

And I just feel awful that everybody you know who got on a plane, who'd been training so hard, just

all of the things, my heart was broken for all of you.

1:32

And I know that they're not able to reschedule it, but they did move it virtually, which allowed me

silver lining to be able the run.

1:40

I did mine yesterday, the half marathon.

So I will be getting the medal whenever they give us the instructions to do that.

1:47

But again, my heart goes out to Jay Druba and his wife Katie, who spent the entire last year

planning this event and stayed up all night, literally all night before the race only to have to

1:58

cancel and disappoint so many, including themselves.

And I just, yeah, my, my heart goes out to you guys.

2:05

And I can't wait till next year.

We will come back bigger, better than ever.

2:08

And for anybody who somehow didn't get the memo, they've partnered with other races around the area

with some great discount offers as well as some great discounts for the Carmel Marathon next year.

2:19

So thank you, Jay and Katie, we are here for you.

And now I am gearing up for the Indie mini, which you've heard me talk quite a bit about.

2:28

It is our big half marathon to kick off the month of May here in Indianapolis, Indiana.

And this will be my 17th time running.

2:36

It'll be my first time having a booth at the Expo.

It'll be my first time hosting an event the night before the race.

2:43

And I'm just freaking out a little bit.

So I am scrambling to get as much ready as I can before the big event and praying to stay healthy

2:52

and that the weather cooperates for us for this one.

And so if you don't already have tickets to the Friday night event, the link is in my Instagram bio

3:01

or in the show notes here on Instagram.

I'm Ally ALYT Brett Brett under score runs.

3:08

That's Ally T Brett runs.

So go follow me there where I share all the information about that.

3:13

And we have a handful of tickets left.

We are trying to fit as many people as we can into this gorgeous venue that the Bottle Works Hotel

3:20

has.

And we are announcing a very exciting title sponsor.

3:25

Better late than never, and we'll be announcing that soon.

Perhaps it's already been announced by the time you're listening to this, but cannot wait to work

3:32

with this brand for this amazing event.

It's going to be outstanding.

3:36

So don't miss out.

And please, if you're local to Indianapolis or you're coming in for the race, please come say hello

3:41

at the Expo.

Would love to meet you and my guest this week is Maury Planbeck.

3:47

Maury and I are on the board for the Indianapolis Monumental Marathon together.

The organization is called Beyond Monumental.

3:54

So I've gotten to meet Maury but not really get to know him and this was my opportunity to do just

that.

4:00

He has actually run the Indie mini, he thinks 26 or 27 times.

So you think 17 is a lot?

4:06

My goodness.

And 24 of those were in a row, which is just mind blowing.

4:11

He is such a steward to our community, not just for Beyond Monumental, but for other organizations

that he works with here in our community.

4:17

I think after listening to this episode, you'll want to volunteer more.

I know it made me want to do just that.

4:22

Mori is also doing the Run 317 series that's kicking off here very very soon so I will link in the

show notes for some more information if you are local.

4:32

It's a series of races that are 3.17 miles and big huge party so great opportunity to get involved

in the running community and have a blast on Thursdays starting soon.

4:42

So look for that information in the show notes or on my social.

I also have a birthday party for my 4 year old next Sunday and it's like teacher appreciation week

4:53

next week and I feel like my brain is just on OverDrive.

I'm doing my best over here.

4:58

So thank you to everybody for listening to this conversation with Maury Glenn Beck.

But first, real quick, this episode is brought to you by Prevenex.

5:08

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health.

5:13

You may have heard me talking about their gut and greens, which I used to replace the greens that I

was taking.

5:18

They have just the ingredients with benefits and it's also less expensive than what I was using

before.

5:25

I've also started using their muscle health for after a workout.

I take that to help my muscles recover faster, which I certainly need.

5:35

And they are also sponsoring our upcoming Indie Mini event where they will be providing both flavors

of their Neurofi Plus protein powder and a blender bottle in all goodie bags.

5:46

And their CEO and founder, who is local to Indie, David Block, will be in attendance for you to meet

him and hear his passion that he has for this company and his mission.

5:57

And if you are not local to Indy, but you would like to try Previnex, you can go to previnex.com

that's Prev inex.com and use Code Alley ALL Y15 for 15% off your first order.

6:11

Thank you so much, Previnex, for supporting this podcast and our upcoming event.

Maury Plumbeck, welcome.

6:19

Is it?

Did I say it right?

6:20

It's plan back.

Plan back, damn it.

6:22

Okay, hold on Maury.

It's plan back.

6:25

Like exactly how it's spelled.

Right, but if you were German you would say Plumbeck.

6:29

Okay, my grandparents, said Plumbeck.

But.

6:32

Okay, that's German.

Yeah, it's a German name, yeah.

6:34

Well, Brett Knocker, also German people like Brett Natcher, that way I guess it's fair.

OK, plan back.

6:42

Plan back.

I'm so excited.

6:43

Say Plumb back anyway.

Well, I've messed that out.

6:46

Yeah, I'm sure you get it both ways.

Lots of different ways, my first my.

6:50

First name too.

How do people say your first name?

6:52

Oh, Murray, they don't read it.

Marie lots of times.

6:57

Or Marsha if you're really not reading something.

Oh.

7:01

Marsha Yeah, yeah.

It's my given name is Maurice.

7:05

No one ever calls me Maurice.

My parents never called me Maurice.

7:09

But you know, I write it that way sometimes.

That's that's always in Maurice.

7:13

Is a really cool name.

I was trying to think, you know, I have little kids, so Beauty and the Beast Maurice is like I

7:18

picture.

I think that's her, isn't her daddy's name.

7:20

I don't know.

Anyway, we digress.

7:22

We do.

This is how it goes.

7:25

So welcome and thank you so much for coming from downtown all the way up here to Carmel to do this

with me.

7:30

Well.

Thanks for inviting me.

7:32

Of course I'm excited.

I'm.

7:33

Super excited.

So we met through the board for Beyond Monumental, which I assume people know this by now, but

7:41

perhaps they don't, is the organization behind the CNO Indianapolis Monumental Marathon and several

other events?

7:49

And you were on the board when I joined?

I was.

7:51

And we were talking about before we hit record as we both don't remember how long anything is going

on.

7:56

So it's you've been on for a long time.

Has it been more than 10 years though?

8:00

I don't think it's been more than 10 years.

It was before the pandemic though and I think I have like 2 years left.

8:06

I think I went second to the last year.

OK.

8:09

And what made you join the Beyond Monumental Board?

Well, like many things in my life, it just happened.

8:17

I will say it just happened.

I have lots of friends in the running community.

8:20

And so a couple of them were on a committee for Beyond Monumental working on the strategic plan.

OK.

8:26

And they said hell, and I'm a planner, right?

So hey, would you like to be on this committee with us?

8:32

And so sure, pretty soon the other board members were like, hey, would you want to be on the board?

Having had worked for the city of Indianapolis, I was kind of the city liaison.

8:44

Gotcha.

They had just had a person that worked for this city who had gone off the board.

8:49

And so they said you want to be on the board and sure, I'll be on the board.

I like running.

8:53

I've loved it.

Yeah.

8:54

Yeah, Yeah.

That's so great.

8:56

Yeah.

And city planning, I don't even know where to start with that.

9:00

Yeah.

But will you tell people like explain it to me like I'm five kind of concept, Like what is city

9:06

planning and how the heck did you get into that as your career?

Well, so it's not city planting many, OK, you're right, you're right.

9:15

And I've seen this as kind of like that's, but many kids especially think you plant the trees for

their city.

9:22

No, it's city planning.

So it was my career and it's still my life.

9:28

So when I was in high school, I really liked architecture and it took some drafting classes in high

school and designed a couple of things and so went to college to be an architect.

9:41

Okay.

And I'm from Nebraska, went to the University of Nebraska, like almost every Nebraska kid goes to

9:47

University of Nebraska.

What city in Nebraska are you from?

9:50

I'm from a very small town.

It's called Bancroft, a town of 500I grew up on a farm.

9:57

It's about 65 miles from Omaha.

OK, it's probably the only city I know in Nebraska.

10:03

And all my relatives are from Omaha area and from there anyway, so I was going to be an architect,

went to school in Lincoln.

10:10

And the program is is a kind of a six year program back then.

It's OK.

10:16

It's been a while ago six year program where you'd get your bachelor's in architecture and then they

wanted to get wanted to get your master's in architecture or planning.

10:25

And so towards my 4th year, I was OK at architecture, but I was not great at architecture.

And so it meant it was a little bit of struggles trying to come up with creative things and doing it

10:39

like I don't think I want to do this for my whole life, you know, and I'm a little bit of a

perfectionist.

10:44

So that wasn't going to fit with my personality.

And so I so I had taken a planning class my fourth year of school and I'm like, this is it planning?

0:00

That's how I got into planning.

10:55

OK, OK, so planning is many parts of a city.

So I was because I was in architecture, I was more into the physical aspects of how a city grows.

11:06

There is social planning, you know how you work with homeless and social workers, something like

that.

11:12

But I was in the in that, in that part.

So I got my Master's in Community and Regional Planning at the University of Nebraska and went to

11:20

work for the city of Cheyenne, WY.

Cheyenne, WY.

11:23

That was my first job and ironically it is much like Indianapolis, only 10 times smaller because it

was a city county planning agency.

11:34

And you know, Indianapolis is the whole county is 1.

And so I specialized in zoning and so many people know planning as zoning.

11:42

You know, all the land uses are divided up and as people want to change zoning, there's public

hearings.

11:47

So I did that pretty much all of my career in Cheyenne and then then moved here to Indianapolis to

work for the city of Indianapolis.

11:56

And so worked with zoning at the city of Indianapolis.

And so that was, you know, if anyone was involved in that entity, they knew me and and I knew them.

12:04

No, you know, lots of attorneys knew, lots of land developers, many, many neighborhood

organizations, and then just people that would come in off the street to do something.

12:13

So I really liked all that variety there.

For many years, I was the director of the Department of Metropolitan Development in Indianapolis and

12:21

then worked on all kinds of other projects.

So we worked on the downtown canal.

12:26

It was finished while I was the director.

That's.

12:28

Cool.

Thank you.

12:30

You're you're welcome.

It was, it was started when I came.

12:33

So thank whoever started.

Otherwise I would never have come here.

12:37

Yeah, it was started.

You know, I I got to do some design review, like review the design of the mall, the Circle Center

12:44

Mall.

OK was involved in the discussions about the cultural trail downtown.

12:49

Yep.

The Department of Metropolitan Development or DMD, which is what I will say most of the time, own

12:54

the land that the Monon is on.

Really.

12:57

Yeah, we were that department has the the ability to have the most flexibility on land ownership.

So we own the land, the Parks Department developed the Monon and and then we work together and

13:09

that's how work done the Monon.

That's cool.

13:11

And so for people who don't know what the Monon is.

The Monon is a rail trail, so all across America many old rail lines have turned into trails for

13:20

walking, running, biking, exercise, things like that.

So the Monon is the, I think the longest one in Indianapolis certainly goes from.

13:29

Probably in the state.

No, I think that the there's a trail out east, the Cardinal Trail, Cardinal Greenway, I've never

13:36

even heard of it goes from Richmond to Muncie.

That's longer.

13:41

Whoa.

Anyway, so the Monon goes from 10th Street downtown Indianapolis to Sheridan and maybe longer.

13:47

Now, yeah, it keeps going.

Yeah.

13:48

So that's kind of a quick overview of what plan is, yeah.

As a city, does the city decide, hey, we want this percentage of our county to have be zoned for

13:58

like retail or like what are the categories that you look at?

So planning first of all, in Indiana and and most states you have to have a land use plan and before

14:09

you can have zoning.

Land use plan is the concept about how you want your city to grow and then the zoning is the law on

14:16

how it how it.

Can grow.

14:18

Yeah.

So the plan has all of the land in Marion County planned, meaning we have residential here, we have

14:25

commercial here, mixed-use here.

We didn't at that time.

14:29

And you know, it's been a little while since I've been there.

We didn't really allocate a certain amount.

14:34

What you wanted to do as a planner was make sure that that every area had enough amenities for

people to be able to live and work.

14:45

I mean, so you can live and work and recreate and all that kind of stuff.

I, I'm going to describe it best in the downtown.

14:51

So, so Indianapolis downtown, if you've been around for a while, has evolved.

When I came in, in 88, there was lots of office things happening.

15:02

Lots of office buildings were happening, but there was hardly any retail.

The stores were closing back then as blocks and errors and all that was closing.

15:11

Not very many people live downtown.

The goal was to have all three.

15:16

You know, you have a 24 hour downtown, you have people that live here, you have people that that

recreate here, you have people that work here.

15:24

And that's what makes all of the parts of the downtown successful.

The restaurants, Circle Center Mall, you know, as it was.

15:32

And so slowly that evolved downtown evolved.

We had the offices.

15:38

Then during a couple of administrations, the focus was on Circle Center Mall.

Back in the 90s, many, many cities were doing doing malls.

15:48

Ours was different.

And I'll brag and I think it was better.

15:53

So before Circle Center Mall, while it was being planned, I went to Columbus, OH OK not to and

Columbus is a fun city to go to, but they had a downtown mall that was super successful.

16:03

If you went to that one.

The outside was all one big brick box.

16:08

Oh yeah, right.

I mean, so like walking around this big Brock was was not very fun.

16:13

But you go inside, Oh my gosh, there's all this activity.

And whenever our mall saved many of the historic buildings, every single block has some historic

16:23

facades that were there before that were saved as the back was demolished.

They saved the front.

16:29

And when when they built the mall put those all as part of it.

So the goal behind that was to keep it a pedestrian friendly downtown.

16:38

Yeah, I mentioned walking by a bunch of brick walls.

No one really likes walking by brick walls.

16:43

But walking by some storefronts, well, that's, you know, there's lots of activity and then the

restaurants are on the streets were happened.

16:50

So that all happened.

Well, then what we have today is there's thousands of people live downtown Indianapolis.

16:58

I even remember a few years ago, relatives from Nebraska come actually they lived in Kansas City at

the time, came out and we went downtown to eat and they're like, what's going on?

17:08

Why are all these people down here?

Is there something special going on?

17:11

I go, no, that's just what it is.

And so we try to have that in every neighborhood.

17:16

You know, certainly in Indianapolis, car is dominated in most of the neighborhoods, but you don't

want to be able to stop.

17:22

You want to be able to work and all of that.

So is that what recruited you here?

17:27

Was there like, hey, we have this opportunity to like, revamp our whole downtown?

And you're like, OK, that's a project that sounds fun.

17:34

Well, that's it.

That's also a little bit interesting.

17:37

So I guess it's that I lived in, worked in Cheyenne, WY, Yeah.

And had decided I was going to move to a different place.

17:45

That is kind of common with planners, especially out West.

Yeah.

17:49

You know, you move from one city or another, other to another state, things like that.

Well, I decided I'm only going to move to a city with a football team, OK.

17:59

And it was a couple of things.

I'm from Nebraska.

18:03

We used to have a good football team and I love football.

I still like football.

18:07

And so I thought, well, I want to move to a city with a football team.

Not just for the football team, though.

18:13

I thought, if I'm going to move to a city that I don't know which I did not know much about

Indianapolis, is there going to have all of the other things that I might want in my life, Theater,

18:24

art, recreation, all that kind of stuff.

So I actually interviewed for this job at a conference in San Antonio, TX.

18:33

Oh, weird.

Literally I have I have only had only been through it.

18:38

I didn't even really know I ended up, but I started reading about it and the same week I was offered

the job here, I was offered a job in Alameda, CA, so San Francisco.

18:49

Whoa.

Very different.

18:50

Very different.

But my brother and his family live there and so it's like, oh, what do I do?

18:56

What do I do?

So being the planner that I am, I looked at the cost of living.

19:02

I looked at the salary I was getting paid.

Of course, both were less in Indianapolis, but it equaled out.

19:09

It equals out, surprisingly.

And the thing that made the difference is the planning office in Indy was on the 21st floor.

19:17

The planning office in Alameda was in the basement.

And I thought, oh, they must care more about planning here than they do.

19:25

Yeah.

And so then I moved here.

19:27

Wow, and wasn't really planning on staying the rest of my life.

It turned out I love Indianapolis and I love Indiana.

19:36

That is so cool.

That's crazy too, that your brother lived out in San Francisco and you still ended up here.

19:43

Well, so I mean.

I understand.

19:45

Why?

I can go visit him.

19:46

Yeah.

If you live there, it's not to say.

19:49

Yeah.

Right.

19:50

Right.

It's cool.

19:51

And do you just have one sibling?

Just a brother.

19:53

Or no, I have two brothers, two brothers that that one and and the other one lives in in South

Dakota, but really across the river from Nebraska.

20:02

So he still really lives home.

OK.

20:05

My family likes Indianapolis so much my parents moved here.

He did. 20 years ago, my mother is still alive.

20:12

So still alive.

That's great.

20:14

All the sheep.

She's 8989, an 89 year old who can ride a bike and the walks every day and very, very active.

20:22

Yeah.

That's amazing.

20:23

Yeah, that is amazing.

So where do you fall in the?

20:27

Oldest.

I was going to guess that because I am the oldest of three girls and I can sense like, OK, the

20:32

planning, the stuff, you know, I'm like, OK, he's probably the first born.

I am.

20:36

I'm not kind of a typical oldest.

However, all all three of us, the youngest was in high school when I was in high school.

20:43

We are all three in high school together.

So it's like Bing, Bing, Bing, Yeah.

20:47

OK, wow, wow.

And so does your brother that lived in California still live there?

20:52

Yeah, he still lives.

There.

20:53

Yeah.

And.

20:54

And your mom still lives here?

Where does she live?

20:56

In the city.

She lives at in a neighborhood called Ivy Hills up by Castleton.

21:00

OK.

Yeah, they, they had a farm.

21:02

That's when they sold their farm.

They thought where where should we go?

21:07

California wasn't really for them.

Yeah.

21:09

And I'm of the three, I'm probably more nurturing than the other two.

And so they, they moved here.

21:16

We went to the same church for a long time.

And it's a yeah, it's a one story house for older people.

21:22

They have great neighborhood.

My dad passed away about a year ago but he he lived to be 89 also.

21:29

That's amazing.

Wow.

21:31

And farm life.

I mean, a lot of people in Indiana perhaps can relate to growing up on a farm.

21:37

I did not.

But you know, this area is where I grew up and it was much more rural when I was born.

21:44

So what was farm life like?

Like what kind of farm?

21:46

Because I feel like there's so many different, like did you have animals or was it mainly like corn

or what?

21:50

What was your farm like?

It was, Yeah.

21:52

In Nebraska, you either lived on a farm or you you related to people that lived on a farm,

especially the small town island too.

22:02

So we had, we had crops, corn and soybeans, but my dad really liked hogs.

We were like the biggest hog farmer in in that area.

22:13

And so that's what we did.

It was a lot of work, but it kind of in, in the city when we worked at the city, if anyone came from

22:20

a farm, like, oh, we should hire them because they're going to work how to work, you know how to

work.

22:24

And we did.

I could drive a tractor when I was less than 10 years old.

22:29

And my grandpa taught me how to do that.

And then I could, I could actually run the farm when my parents went on vacation.

22:36

And so it was.

It was good.

22:38

I'm shocked that my life turned out the way it is.

Did you always just assume you would grow to take over the farm?

22:45

Or never.

No.

22:46

OK.

22:46

I was.

I was going to be an architect, remember?

22:48

Yeah.

I was not going to live on the farm.

22:51

One of my brothers did for a long time.

OK.

22:54

But I didn't know that I would.

I at the time when I was a kid growing up, I didn't, you didn't even really think about cities.

23:01

Omaha was the city and I didn't even know about city planning until I went to college.

To tell you the truth.

23:07

Yeah.

That's I mean.

23:08

Yeah.

So it was so small town.

23:11

Thing is, it's just like they say, everybody knows what you're doing.

I was going to say your business.

23:18

I will say everybody knows your business.

There's lots of good to everybody knowing your business.

23:22

It's like if, if anything, at one time my car slid off the ice and the neighbor pulled us out.

And being the stupid teenager was, I didn't tell my parents, but they did.

23:32

And then I didn't get in trouble.

But it was like stuff like that, you know, you knew you were, you know, you had hundreds of parents

23:39

looking out for the guy and you know, everybody knew everybody.

There weren't there weren't clicks or anything like that, per SE.

23:47

We also did lots of things in high school, like played sports.

I was going.

23:50

To say you could probably play any sport you wanted.

Play sports.

23:53

You're you're in bed and you're in music, you're in plays.

You have to do it all.

23:59

Yeah, how many people in your school like in your class?

So it's almost embarrassing. 32 in my class.

24:06

In high school.

In high school, 120 in the school.

24:09

That's wild.

It's wild and. 32.

24:13

Yeah.

And and now the part of Nebraska we grew in.

24:16

That's typical.

Yeah, I.

24:17

Mean I.

Didn't even have 500.

24:19

So like Indiana, there's classes.

We had classes too.

24:21

We were Class C out of four.

We weren't even the smallest class.

24:26

Yeah, I mean, I went to here, I went to Catholic school, St.

Maria Greti, and my graduating class going into high school was 18 people.

24:35

So I mean, that was before, that was before high school.

But it I did know because we almost had, I think our grades were like almost pseudo combined with

24:42

like the grade under us because there were so few of us and it was wild.

We'd had to do sports with another Catholic school because we didn't have enough people to have a

24:50

sports team.

So what were sports like then?

24:53

Like, did you?

I mean, how do you have enough people to put together a team?

24:57

I think in those small towns, sports is so much a part of everyone's life that we had a regular

football team, 11 man football team.

25:06

What we didn't have as to the town that I grew up in, baseball was the.

Thing.

25:12

And in Nebraska, all the schools did not have baseball.

We might have been the smallest school in the state with baseball.

25:19

And so the only thing so in the spring was baseball and track.

Well, I did track.

25:25

My brothers did baseball and so so we didn't have cross country because of that.

We didn't have wrestling in my school, even though some of the other ones did.

25:34

But you know, the basketball team went to state when I was in high school.

I wasn't on it, but I, you know, the football team was, was OK did.

25:41

You play football.

I I did not well, but I did.

25:47

I was the fastest runner on the football team.

I bet you guys.

25:50

Bet you were the fastest runner on the football team.

I bet you were.

25:52

Yeah, you kind of, kind of.

Everyone did, whether you were no good.

25:55

You know, you're just.

But no, my brothers were really good and so so they started.

26:00

The other interesting thing about small town lifestyle.

When I was a freshman in high school, I was in band, had already played in junior high and on the

26:08

football team.

Well, at home we only had band at homecoming.

26:11

So when you were a freshman, you had to stay in your band uniform till halftime.

Then you could go put your football uniform on.

26:19

That's what life is like in a small.

Town.

26:20

That's funny.

Yeah.

26:22

Wow.

26:23

And then you go to Nebraska for college.

How big was Nebraska at the time?

26:29

It was like 20,000.

Yeah.

26:30

So it's like that's a big difference.

I loved it, though.

26:33

Yeah, I absolutely loved it.

Yeah.

26:36

The first time you're away from home, which wasn't that big a deal for me, is only 990 miles from

home.

26:41

But you start, you meet people that are in the same boat.

Yeah, first time we're away from home.

26:49

You find interests, you know, and, and do stuff.

I college was great.

26:54

I did.

I didn't do too much running in college, but I played a lot of tennis.

26:58

I did a lot of intramural sports and sang in a chorus at the University of Nebraska and.

Lori, I didn't know that you could sing.

27:08

Yeah.

I can sing, but I'm not going to sing today.

27:11

Fine today.

And so I was, I was there six years and I I lived there in the summer every year except for one, one

27:19

summer I decided to go home.

Many of my friends today that you know, the long term friends, the college friends.

27:25

Yeah.

Wow.

27:26

Yeah.

And so you mentioned track in high school but not cross country, and then in college no running.

27:34

So when did running running come into the picture?

Probably when I moved to Indianapolis, I did run a little bit in in Wyoming, but just more to stay

27:43

in shape and and it's a it's a stress reliever.

Yeah, it has always been a stress reliever for me.

27:50

So when I worked for the city of Indianapolis, one of the deputy directors in the department was a

runner, one of the runners that ran every mini.

27:58

OK, so, and I'm not sure he's still able to.

He's quite a bit older than me, but the last one I know he did he his family took him in a

28:07

wheelchair so he could still keep that legacy going.

Yeah.

28:11

It was excited.

So what he did.

28:13

So, you know, what do we talk about running, Right?

Because I did run.

28:17

And this is back in the days when it was on Friday.

Yes.

28:21

And he was on Friday and so everybody be run.

This started at the circle.

28:25

He would go run and he would come back to the office not to work, but sort of to work right and talk

about how fun it was.

28:33

And I said, Gina, I want to do that.

I think I should run.

28:36

So, so the next year is probably 1991 or something.

I trained with one of those groups downtown and ran the mini and had no idea how I do because I'd

28:48

never run that far.

I, I remember my first eight mile run thinking wow, this is a long way.

28:54

So so that's how that started and I ran 25 minis 24 in a row till I got and this is the 500 mini.

Yes, yeah, 24 people who might not be local.

29:05

I talk about it a lot because, you know, you have to be a lot of people.

It's the rite of passage here in Indianapolis, but it's a half marathon and 5K.

29:13

When it started, it was on a Friday.

Did they?

29:15

Has it always gone around the Motor Speedway?

I'm not.

29:17

I'm not sure about that.

I think it used to end at the Speedway before.

29:21

Actually, you know what?

I think I've heard that before.

29:23

Think it did end at the Speedway?

It should.

29:24

Be crazy.

Every single time I did it, it's gone around the track some.

29:29

Now it goes a little bit more on the track than it used to.

Used to be a kind of not quite a full.

29:34

Like a little blip.

That would be nice.

29:35

Now it's a lap in the border maybe or something.

Yeah, it feels.

29:39

Anyway, so.

So that's how that started.

29:41

OK.

Right.

29:42

And then?

24 years in a row.

29:45

Yeah, yeah.

And then, and then.

29:47

Then of course I started doing other running.

Stuff.

29:49

Well, yeah.

And it's, you know, I sort of found out that I was not a bad runner.

29:56

And, and it was it was kind of a surprise because even though I was pretty good in track in high

school, if I would have trained as well in high school as I even do today, maybe, yeah, I would have

30:07

been a.

Really good runner, yeah.

30:10

Anyway, so I started, you know, running little races and stuff like that and.

And what how old were you have been when you moved to Indy?

30:16

Like 30.

Ish 30 OK 30 when I moved here.

30:20

Yeah.

And so your first half marathon, I know we talked about doing math and stuff.

30:25

It's hard.

It's about 32.

30:27

OK, you're like 30. 32 OK yeah, my best running days were in my 40s.

Which is so cool because I'm almost there and I'm like, maybe then I'll be the fastest I've ever.

30:36

Oh, no, you can.

You can absolutely do it.

30:38

I don't think there's any magic to it except for keeping running right.

But but absolutely my best is in my 40s.

30:44

My best mini I was 40.

Wow, yeah, yeah.

30:47

And what was your best mini?

I did one at one hour and 29 minutes and it was, it was a, like I said, I sort of started figuring

30:59

out that maybe I can do fast.

And so I'll say the very first one is how I probably should do it under two hours and I did.

31:07

And then the next one was like getting kind of close to like maybe it's 135 or something.

I thought, well, maybe I can do that.

31:15

So I trained, I, I probably did three that were like 131.

Oh, those are like so hard.

31:21

And then, so then I would get, I don't give up.

I never give up.

31:25

And so I train and train and train.

And I did one at 1:29 and then many, many at around 1:40.

31:31

That was kind of my.

Your sweet spot?

31:34

Did you ever pace you do so many years?

No, I haven't.

31:38

I've been kind of approached that.

I have a really good friend that has paced many like the caramel.

31:46

Yeah.

So I paste the half, half of the caramel one time.

31:50

But but no, I haven't.

And I always run with Pacers, OK, Especially now if I'm trying to qualify for something.

31:58

Yeah, because it takes the pressure off of not looking in my watch every 5 minutes and thinking, oh,

I got to speed up.

32:05

I got to slow down and speed up.

So that's kind of why I haven't actually done it, because I thought if I disappointed someone by not

32:13

keeping the right time, I would be disciplined.

Right.

32:16

Yeah, yeah.

So I really haven't.

32:19

Yeah, you had to have gotten the extra metal.

So they do an extra metal for one top 500, so you got one.

32:25

Of those, the year I did 129, yeah.

Then people started getting faster and way more.

32:31

Way more people, yeah.

That's still pretty cool though, yeah.

32:33

Was cool, yeah.

Top 500 and now, I mean the mini has gotten a little smaller in recent years, but it's still pretty

32:39

big.

At one point, wasn't it the largest?

32:41

Yeah, I think it.

Was I think it was almost the largest in the world, or at least the country I.

32:46

Know they used to advertise.

It that way, yeah, yeah, 24 in a row and then what happened when you didn't do it?

32:52

For the first I had had a stress fracture in my heel.

Dang and it was kind of like, should I do it or yeah.

33:00

And I thought no, that's not really worth it.

And so it didn't really bother me.

33:04

I have.

I did 1 after now.

33:07

Now I do it with back on my feet.

Yes, OK.

33:09

And we'll talk about that.

Yeah, we will.

33:11

Yeah.

So how many for this year?

33:13

It's mini.

How many minis will it be?

33:15

Oh, just probably 26. 26 OK, so that all right.

Yeah, I haven't run that every year.

33:20

I mean, I've run lots of other half marathons.

Yes, in different.

33:23

Parts.

But just after, after you break the streak, you're kind of like, OK, well, I broke the streak, so

33:26

no, I don't.

Exactly.

33:27

Takes the pressure off.

At least you don't feel like you have to do it every year, right, Right.

33:31

Yeah, yeah, That's crazy.

I I mean over that many mini marathons, what are like do you are you a kiss the bricks guy are.

33:39

You.

No, no, I'm not that.

33:41

OK.

So, so many years I was like, by myself, OK.

33:45

And maybe I knew, you know, we'd see somebody.

I I saw running, you know, there's a guy named Chris that I used to see at the gym and I'd see him.

33:54

Yeah.

So, so my my kind of funnest thing about running the minis.

33:58

One year, my name was called on the track.

You know how they announce it and I'm like, I'm all by myself.

34:05

I mean, I wasn't by myself.

Yeah.

34:07

Like that's me.

That's me.

34:08

You're like, nobody knows.

Yeah, nobody knows.

34:10

Nobody knows.

Probably nobody knows till now.

34:12

I just said it, right.

So no, I'm not.

34:15

I just run hard.

I always, you know, run hard.

34:19

I'm I run faster the second-half almost all the time.

OK, yeah, I'm trying to get better.

34:25

At that, if I'm I have taken some back on my feet guys through it and then it's more of keeping them

in control of their run so they finish, yes, yeah, it's more of finishing now.

34:35

Yeah, yeah, the experience and everything like that.

After doing your first indie mini, at what point did you say, oh, you know, I've done half marathons

34:45

or whatever?

At what point did you go for a full marathon?

34:48

Well, I went for a full marathon without thinking about it.

Which which is like which I saw.

34:55

My normal Here's my normal way to go in life, I guess.

So I started, you know, friends that were runners, right?

35:03

So I did the Bourbon Chase relay race in Kentucky.

OK.

35:09

And so if you're familiar with Ragnar race.

Yes I am.

35:12

I did my first one last year.

OK, this was it is now a Ragnar.

35:15

OK, but it was before it was a Ragnar.

I didn't even know that.

35:19

And I think it might have been the first year.

Cool.

35:22

So this this friend, he said, hey, we're going to do this Bourbon Chase relay race for 30 hours, and

you want to come down and do it with this and well, sure, I'll do it.

35:33

Yeah, right.

And I only knew two people out of our team of 12.

35:38

But you get to know him all right?

Really fast.

35:41

So that person got hurt on his first leg.

We each run three legs and then all 12 people run three legs, right?

35:50

Got hurt on his first one and I had trained for it because I'm like not going to run the hills of

Kentucky without training.

35:56

And so I said I would run one of his extra legs and then somebody else did.

And so that weekend then I ran close to 20 miles, which is the first time I close to 20 miles.

36:08

And I thought, well, I should come back and run the monumental full because I had done most of the

of the halves.

36:15

OK.

Because I did know Carlton, the founder of the race from work.

36:20

And so because he worked at the Department of Public Works, I worked at the Department of

Metropolitan Development.

36:25

And so we knew each other and we knew we were runners.

And I thought, you're starting this race.

36:29

I'm running.

I run the half in a second.

36:31

I'll run that.

Yeah.

36:33

That's how I did.

There's no pressure because just pressure to finish.

36:36

Yeah, yeah.

And so, so I did.

36:38

And then, well, I, I thought, well, I should took my time with like Boston qualifying time.

Well, I qualified for Boston and it was like, oh wow, that was.

36:48

And I didn't even feel that bad, right?

Which people are now hating you right, right.

36:53

Right, and there's these even more.

Well, they can love me in a second because I didn't get in.

36:59

So how?

Well, because this was back in the days.

37:02

So like, I still didn't even know about marathons really per SE.

I mean, I knew about them, but like, I knew Boston was famous, but I didn't know.

37:09

It was so hard to get into.

And this was the way that they did.

37:14

The registration was first come, first serve on one day.

So being the good work employee that I was, I thought, I'm not going to do this during work, I'll do

37:27

it when I get home About noon.

Somebody said, oh, you didn't hear the Boston Marathon sold out.

37:34

I was like, I mean, I was kind of heartbroken.

Yeah.

37:37

Yeah, so so I didn't get in that year.

So they can all be happy I qualify, then get in.

37:41

Then I decided, oh, I'm going to qualify.

So so then the next monument I trained for it ended up renting with some guy from Cincinnati that

37:50

was wanted to do Boston and we did it qualified cool.

Then I knew how to get in, got in, I'm not going to make that mistake and ran Boston and.

38:00

What year was your first Boston?

2013 OK, which happened to be the year of the bomb.

38:07

Yeah.

Yeah, so, so that was very, very unique way to start my Boston Marathon.

38:13

The day was beautiful.

The run was beautiful.

38:17

I did have my spouse and a good friend went to Boston with me and I had finished and she was

supposed to meet me really where the bomb happened.

38:28

But she got lost somehow, thank God.

And I was getting my stuff and I heard it.

38:33

You.

Heard it.

38:33

I heard the bomb, but I didn't know it was a bomb.

What did it sound like?

38:38

It sounded like fireworks.

OK.

38:40

And, and yeah, there's thousands of people everywhere.

And I was like, well, that's kind of weird.

38:44

Why?

You know, like I'm only in the middle.

38:47

You know, there's lots of people still running.

Why is there fireworks?

38:50

Well, then the the siren started going and you knew something was wrong.

And I didn't have a this is before my cell phone.

38:57

I didn't have a cell phone.

She did.

38:59

So we went, I found her and we knew then what had happened.

And we need to go back, get back to our hotel.

39:07

And by the time I got to my hotel, my brother and my mom had called my partner and like, is he all

right?

39:13

He didn't even know what's going on.

And and I was OK, but it was a weird way to start my Boston Marathon.

39:20

Yeah, I don't know if I've ever told you this.

My dad was there.

39:22

Did he run it?

That year, Oh yeah, my mom was there too.

39:26

What was his time was?

He what was his time that year?

39:30

I think it was over 4 hours.

I think he was like 410.

39:34

Like he had finished and gone and like didn't hear it and so he was out of there.

I don't know what I mean.

39:42

Because my my time would have been a little.

Faster, yeah, you would have been for sure faster.

39:45

But I I don't know, maybe it depends on like the waves and when.

Right.

39:49

It depends on where you go, you know.

I mean, I was just there.

39:52

Yeah, I just stayed there.

You were there.

39:54

He his MO is like I'm done and I'm out.

He's like almost doesn't even like grab any food.

39:59

He just.

I was hanging out kind.

40:02

Of which is like the normal thing, yeah.

But yeah, so he was gone and I was at a conference in Chicago and I can't remember if it was my

40:08

husband or my husband's friend calling me and being like, hey, did you see what happened in Boston?

And I hadn't.

40:14

And I remember I was like walking to a Portillo's because I was in Chicago and my that getting that

feeling of like wanting to throw up, thinking like something had happened.

40:23

And so I call my mom.

And this is the story to this day makes me laugh because she was at the mall and she was like, well,

40:28

I'm at the finish Line store.

I don't see anything happening.

40:32

And I was like, mom, not that finish line, like the finish line because she just didn't really think

about it.

40:37

And so, yeah, she's like, oh, I just talked to him because the first thing I asked her, have you

talked to dad?

40:41

Yes.

And I was like, OK, thank God.

40:43

But anyway, yeah, it was, yeah.

It was wild time.

40:46

And I was at the conference and then people started like, finding out that my, you know, that my dad

was there and they were all asking me.

40:52

And it was just kind of crazy.

Yeah, well, we were there then for like 4 more days because we were planning.

40:57

It was kind of a vacation, right?

Yeah.

40:59

So we were in lockdown in the hotel that night and they let us go to a restaurant like right next

door.

41:06

And of course that's what everyone's talking about.

And then then the next day we did a couple of things, went to Harvard and you know, that touristy

41:13

kind of stuff.

Well, then the next day started when they were catching the guy.

41:18

So we were there when the guy got caught in the boat and the guy got killed, the other guy.

And that was all really, really eerie.

41:25

Did you like sit and watch the news coverage?

Oh, absolutely.

41:28

I mean, that's all we did that that night.

You just sat there.

41:31

You're just watching it over, you know, over and over and over.

And they don't know what's going on.

41:34

Crazy.

Yeah, it was crazy.

41:37

So that's how I started marathons.

That is crazy, Mari, that that was your first Boston experience?

41:42

Yeah.

For a lot of others I'm sure too.

41:44

Yeah, I'm sure you know many just, but what a.

Weird way to yeah do such an iconic race, Yeah.

41:50

What was your race experience like before that?

Oh, it's good, you know, You know, like I was totally by myself.

41:58

Really.

I know.

41:58

I didn't know anyone there.

You know, we wait.

42:01

Wait.

You've run Boston, right?

42:03

Not yet.

Well, you wait out out of high school and then you run this through these neighborhoods.

42:08

I didn't try to run fast or anything.

Like I said, I qualified for Boston here a couple of times, right?

42:14

Well, I wouldn't have.

I didn't qualify at Boston, at Boston, at Boston.

42:17

And I thought, well, I'm already here, why do I qualify?

And it was just so cool to have all those people.

42:22

I mean, the whole race there's people cheering you on and you go by this college and everybody has

signs and you know, all the girls want you to kiss them and all that kind of stuff.

42:32

And then then, you know, there's thousands, 1000 people at the finish.

You're with all these people that are of like mine while we got to Boston.

42:41

Yeah, yeah, that's cool.

So it was, it was very exciting that way.

42:45

Yeah, but then kind of weird to celebrate because you couldn't.

Right.

42:48

It was everything but that we missed.

I had every experience but the celebration.

42:52

We didn't get to have that.

Yeah, yeah.

42:54

And you've done Boston now more than once, right?

Yeah, I did it again.

42:58

That was more of I had friends that were going to do it.

Yeah.

43:01

And that time I qualified in Charlevoix, Michigan.

Yeah, you've done Charlevoix, which is a beautiful.

43:06

Place I never I would totally recommend that it's on the lake and it's generally flat except for a

bridge and it was in June I think.

43:16

But it cool because it's on the lake and a friend and I ran.

That was my best marathon ever.

43:22

Was this one in Charlevoix?

Wow, qualified for Boston for 2018 and that time I knew like 6 people that went and ended up running

43:33

with Troy my friend the whole the whole time.

That was a horrible race experience.

43:39

It was it was the year that it rained.

And when I say rain stormed, there's you're running through water in the gutters above your ankles

43:50

and the wind was blowing up the street from from Boston in your face and it was freezing.

If it was 35°, I would be shocked.

44:01

There was snow on the ground when we were waiting at that high school.

So we did not really talk the whole time.

44:09

All you did was run and, and we we're kind of side by side most of the way.

And he actually is a better runner than me and should have been way ahead.

44:18

But you stuck with me.

I didn't even have my good running clothes because I was thinking, oh, we're going to Boston.

44:24

Why am I going to take a bunch of stuff?

I'm going to take it off.

44:26

Right.

So my gloves were like just old gloves I was going to throw away.

44:30

Yeah, but we did it.

I didn't stop.

44:32

That's amazing.

But the minute I stopped, I couldn't even lean over.

44:36

I mean, that was everyone was like that.

You were so cold.

44:39

Like, I dropped my bag, you know, after you picked it up, you're like, well, but all the Boston

people, all the nice people, they were like, oh, I picked that up for you.

44:47

Yeah.

It took me a couple hours to warm up, but then, geez.

44:50

So that was that experience.

Yeah, that was a crazy year watching that people out there, you're like, oh man, that is rough it.

44:59

Was rough, Yeah.

So I can run in any weather now.

45:03

Right now you're like, anything's better than that.

Like pretty much so.

45:07

And you were.

We left out a detail of your qualifying for Boston because you were 52 when you qualified.

45:13

That very first one, yeah.

Yeah, that's.

45:15

Crazy.

Yeah, I was 60 when I did the Charlevoix one. 60 Yeah, yeah, your best marathon.

45:22

My best marathon.

Yeah.

45:23

Yeah, you can keep running.

I told you, you can keep running and just keep running and you'll be fine.

45:28

Yeah, and So what?

What's your best marathon time?

45:31

3/20. 320, yeah.

I won't surpass that ever again. 3 twentieths age 60.

45:38

Yeah.

I mean, like mic drop, it's fine.

45:40

Like you don't have to surpass that because that's really impressive.

I mean, just doing a marathon at age 60 isn't present.

45:46

I sort of think that, but you kind of get used to it.

Well, tell me about it.

45:49

I get so immersed in this world with people doing all these crazy things and then I forget how

impressive it is to people who have no idea, like how far a marathon even is.

45:59

And so then, Oh yeah, like my.

Family, they don't.

46:02

Yeah.

I kind of think I'm crazy.

46:05

Yeah.

46:07

But.

But, you know, ever since I started doing those minis, running is my life.

46:12

Basically, I run.

I run six days a week, six days a week, almost all.

46:16

You know, it's rare that I don't run six days a week.

And so when I'm on vacation, when I'm with my family, I run.

46:23

So they all know that.

But I remember when they when they're running the first half marathon.

46:28

You ran 13 miles.

Yeah.

46:30

Why would you do that?

Why would anyone do that?

46:32

Right.

Yeah.

46:32

And then and then the the Boston was so famous.

You know, everybody.

46:38

You run Boston.

Yeah.

46:40

Run Boston.

And, you know, you, you have your little jacket.

46:43

I'm sure your dad has his jacket.

He does.

46:45

Yeah.

46:46

He probably still has it.

Yeah.

46:47

Yeah.

So it's that when people are not typically surprised when they find out I'm a runner.

46:55

But often.

Yeah.

46:57

You know, I'm over 60.

And they're like, you're run.

47:00

You're a runner.

47:03

Yeah.

And then.

47:04

Well, you know, do you run like 5 KS?

Oh, I'll tell you.

47:08

I'll tell you this.

So I run 317 races.

47:10

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is a really fun thing to do in this summer here.

47:15

You know, they're all 5K races.

There's five of them, right?

47:19

Well, they're 3.17.

Miles, yeah, they're 3.17.

47:21

I do tell people that that.

Irritates some people. 3.17 yeah, yeah.

47:25

And so I was doing one this this last summer and I think I had a New York marathon.

I had a marathon shirt on, right?

47:33

And and this, this woman comes up to me and she goes, why are you running this 5K?

You can run a marathon.

47:40

And I said it's just as fun to run a 5K as it is to marathon.

So it's even people, even people that are runners are surprised you do different things like.

47:49

That, yeah.

Or when you say, like for me, running a 5K is harder than running a marathon or a half marathon

47:55

because of the, if you're racing it, like if you're trying to go at 5K pace, for me that is harder

because you go from like 0 to wanting to die immediately and like wanting to die the whole time

48:08

versus marathoning.

It takes a while and then you get there and it's hard too, but just a different.

48:13

Absolutely, Ali.

For me it's the monumental mile.

48:18

The first one I did of that was like, this is harder than America.

I've never.

48:23

So I've never raced the mile because I'm too.

Scared it probably wouldn't be so bad if I didn't care.

48:29

Yeah, that's, you know, if I didn't care, it'd be fine.

Yes.

48:32

Then oh, I need to do a good time.

And it's only for me.

48:35

It really is.

It's just only for me.

48:36

My times are only for me.

Yes.

48:38

So like that first one I did.

I don't even remember what the time was, but I just remember thinking, this is awful.

48:44

It took me almost as long to recover from the mile as it does for my half mouth.

I mean, it's so crazy.

48:49

So you think about that, but it's true.

It's fun.

48:51

Yeah.

And so at what point during this journey did you find Indie Runners because you were part of Indie

48:57

Runners or still perhaps are or what?

What groups did you?

49:01

Run with OK, so I'm a member of Nifst downtown.

So that was the first training groups that I did with.

49:08

So I did, did theirs for a couple of years.

Indie Runners, I am a member of Indie Runners, but I only started doing that because other people

49:17

did.

But that really wasn't an impetus for me and any of this back on my feet really was.

49:23

So we'll do the back on my feet thing.

Yeah, yeah.

49:27

So when I first started running, I was an evening runner after work, OK.

And, you know, and that most people are, you know, after work, you get done.

49:37

Yeah.

Well, then when I started getting more responsibility at DMD, it's like, oh, I'd have something at

49:45

night and then I couldn't run.

And then that was messed up my schedule.

49:49

That's not going to work.

49:51

So I started running in the morning and I also already went to work at 7:00.

So I'd get up early and and go to NIFS and run and do all that.

50:00

And so then sometimes I'd be running downtown and I'd see this group of people running and then

you'd start going to races.

50:07

Like I remember Drumstick Dash, you hear about Back on my feet.

And so I'm the kind of guy look up what's back on my feet.

50:15

And it is a national running organization that started out as running with homeless people.

And there's chapters in many cities.

50:25

And we have had a chapter here in Indianapolis for 14 years.

And so I saw that back in my feet.

50:30

Well, it's volunteer.

I'm a volunteer.

50:33

And it's like, and I'm a person who likes to volunteer to give my talents to other people.

So I thought I'll volunteer with this group because I can run.

50:42

Yeah.

We run at 5:45 in the morning.

50:46

Oh, well, that doesn't even change my schedule.

And so I started that 13 years ago.

50:52

Wow.

Yeah.

50:53

And we run.

There's three teams in Indianapolis, one at Wheeler Mission, right downtown Delaware and New York,

50:58

one at Pathways just north of downtown and one at Progress House southeast of Down.

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52:05

And we run.

There's three teams in Indianapolis, one at Wheeler Mission right downtown Delaware and New York,

52:10

one at Pathways just north of downtown and one at Progress House southeast of downtown.

And Monday, Wednesday, Friday and then on Saturdays, several guys want to like do half marathons.

52:24

Several have done the the monumental half, a couple have done monumental full.

There's some training for the mini.

52:31

So, so anyone that's doing that right now will will run on Saturday.

And so the idea behind it, the founder in Philadelphia was running past a mission in Philadelphia

52:42

for many years and run by us.

But then the guy started seeing her regularness and cheering her on.

52:49

And then she started, well, you guys should run.

So she started this program.

52:53

And the idea is many of these guys have substance abuse issues.

Certainly running helps you with that.

53:00

Yeah.

But it's also with the volunteer part, you know, having a social network, people that you know, that

53:07

have regular jobs that may be different than what you are.

So those two things together are what make Back On My Feet work.

53:14

And then the staff there is staff.

We have one staff here, so they organize classes.

53:21

So how to how to manage your finances, how do you do your resume?

And so there's volunteers that do that thing.

53:27

So the real goal is to get back on your feet.

The goal isn't to run a half marathon.

53:32

The goal is to get a job and get a place to live.

And so I've been doing that for a long time and it's it's very, very fulfilling.

53:40

Certainly the guys get a lot out of it, but the volunteers get a lot out of it, too.

Yeah.

53:46

And so many of my friends are from that group.

Yeah, honestly.

53:49

And that's how, Yeah, I've been involved in some of this other stuff.

Yeah, so I've had Jim Patton on this podcast.

53:56

And Jim was in back of my feet.

Yeah.

53:58

And I knew him very well.

I know him.

53:59

Very.

Yeah.

54:00

And he was.

The pastor's not the right word.

54:02

What's the word for somebody at the like, at the wedding for my sister's wedding?

He was the officiant at my sister's wedding.

54:08

That's How I Met him.

That's crazy.

54:09

That's really cool.

So, yeah.

54:11

Yeah.

So I I knew him from back of my feet.

54:13

We used to have a coffee.

How is he efficient at my nieces wedding?

54:17

I have to talk to him about that.

Trade Notes.

54:20

Really anyway.

Yeah, so and then Timmy Howard and Wes Doty have both been on this podcast and their stories are on

54:26

the other side.

Not the volunteering but being addicts and how running helped them get through that.

54:31

Which is just crazy but what a cool.

Oh yeah, so both of those guys I know very, very well.

54:38

Timmy works at NIFS.

Right, of course.

54:40

Yep.

And and so I see him all of the time.

54:43

Lucky he and his wife, you know, photograph lots of stuff, races.

And then Wes, he was from pathways, which really is right up the street from me.

54:52

OK, He, he helped some of my neighbors that are, they're senior citizens with their, their yards and

their house and stuff.

54:59

And then I, I worked at the Indianapolis Neighborhood Resource Center after the city of

Indianapolis.

55:04

OK.

And there's a program there called Public Allies and it helps train people to work in the

55:09

not-for-profit.

Interesting.

55:11

Wes did that program.

It's a year long program.

55:14

And so I got to know him really well through that.

That's really cool.

55:17

I love that.

55:18

I actually, I saw the founder of Back on My Feet speak here, really.

And it must have been like right when they started the chapter, but it was at the JW Marriott.

55:29

There was an event.

I don't know how I got involved to be there.

55:33

I forget.

It was a breakfast for back on my feet.

55:36

OK, it used to be for that hundreds of people go to.

That yeah, it was like a huge event.

55:41

Yeah, right.

It was a fundraiser for.

55:43

That yeah, it might have been when I did AI, did a one year stint in economic development.

I never told you that, but I worked for what was develop indie at the time and is now part of the

55:53

Chamber of Commerce and so I worked there for a year and so that's probably why I was there.

I bet probably, yeah, yeah.

55:59

Which was kind of it was interesting.

It was such a cool experience.

56:02

I got to go to Brazil as like with the city and that was fun, but wow.

But yeah, very short like purview into city stuff.

56:10

So I.

Feel like develop indie people.

56:12

I'm sure.

Yeah, we could probably.

56:13

Yeah, I know.

We should probably talk about that.

56:15

And I was probably at that breakfast.

You probably were right and I just remember thinking what a cool concept.

56:19

Did you wear sneakers?

So that was part.

56:21

Of the idea because I have a picture you're.

Supposed to dress up but wear tennis shoes.

56:25

I can picture a picture of.

Myself.

56:27

Yeah, wearing I had a pencil skirt, which is crazy to think.

I used to wear pencil skirts to work, but and tennis shoes.

56:33

Yeah, I did.

It's so funny to think about.

56:35

Totally forgot so it.

All ended with the pandemic.

56:38

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

56:40

So, so yeah, what a cool organization to be involved with.

And then you talk about volunteering, obviously you're part of the board for Beyond Monumental, and

56:49

we have this Monumental Kids movement that's such a big part of our organization.

And then you're on a couple other boards.

56:54

Yes, yeah.

So you really, you know, thank you for giving back so much to the community.

56:59

That's really cool.

It's part of my life.

57:01

I have an aunt and uncle that volunteered and they were like mentors to me in my mind, right?

Oh, you guys are doing all this cool stuff so.

57:08

So I want to do that.

Yeah, that's really cool.

57:10

So you mentioned Monumental Kids Movement.

I'll talk about that first.

57:13

So yeah, I volunteered for that race.

And so you've talked about it, people.

57:18

People don't know.

I always assume people don't know.

57:20

And you?

Just repeat it.

57:21

So monumental kids movement is the, I guess I'm going to call the non for profit arm of Beyond

Monumental.

57:28

So yeah, it's kind of on.

Purpose so.

57:30

Yeah.

So when you when you pay your fee to to run your race, a lot of money goes to help kids in

57:37

Indianapolis become runners or just get physically active.

Yeah.

57:41

So they do a race, we do a race with them.

So I volunteered at that race, and I don't even know the age group, but there's some little kids.

57:49

Yeah.

To junior high, maybe.

57:51

Something like that.

That sounds right.

57:52

And seeing all these kids run a race and the very last one they did was finished it at the 50 yard

line of Lucas Oil Stadium.

58:00

And seeing the the looks on these kids faces makes volunteering worth it every, every single bit.

So I love that.

58:08

Yes.

And then, and then we're beyond monumentals helping these kids be active, you know, maybe they'll

58:14

become runners.

Maybe they won't, but they know what it's like.

58:17

But they're learning how to train for something kind of like back on my feet.

They're learning how to do these types of things that will help with their life.

58:24

Right, right.

Yeah.

58:25

And the parents are there too.

Yeah, which is the parents are very involved.

58:27

So that's all good, yeah.

So I'm on two other boards.

58:32

One is Tangram and it's an organization that works with people that have disabilities and that

provide staff like disabilities where you might need somebody living with you basically.

58:46

And so I've been on that for several years.

I'm in my last year there.

58:50

I knew about it from from working at the city because I had two really good friends that were on the

board, OK, but in from different places.

58:58

One was a friend that actually worked for the city.

One was a runner at Back on My Feet.

59:04

And so apparently their their deal was when you go up the board, you're supposed to find new members

for the board.

59:10

They both asked me and so and I said, yeah, I do that.

I live with a disabled person.

59:17

I know what it's all about.

And so they're doing very important things for a part of the society that many people don't think

59:25

about.

Yeah, absolutely.

59:26

Yeah, It really makes me think about how like accessibility for buildings and accessibility for just

sidewalks when I'm running, right, If there is a pole in the middle of the sidewalk.

59:38

I was thinking, oh, this is if you were blind, this would be so bad.

And so as we change our our physical world, we continually need to think about those, about those

59:49

people, because maybe it's not a majority.

Certainly it's not.

59:53

But if you're the one person in a wheelchair and you can't get across the street or in a building,

we all should care about that.

1:00:00

We all should care about that.

Yeah.

1:00:02

So that's kind of what Tang Room's about then.

You want me to talk about the Damien Center?

1:00:07

So I have a husband.

Yes.

1:00:09

He's from Cheyenne, WY.

From Cheyenne, I was going to ask how you.

1:00:13

Met we met in Cheyenne, WY.

In Wyoming.

1:00:15

His best friend in college is from Indianapolis, IN, so there was a little bit of that when we came

here.

1:00:22

OK, that's cool.

Yeah.

1:00:24

So I lived in Cheyenne six years.

I met him the very last year I lived there, OK, when I was already looking for jobs.

1:00:30

OK.

I'm going.

1:00:31

I'm going to move.

And how did you meet?

1:00:32

I, I swam at the Y at the time, OK, all the time.

And he was an aerobic, his instructor and it was Cheyenne's very small.

1:00:40

And I was like, I kind of asked about who's this guy?

And, and some of my friends said we don't know.

1:00:46

And then they figured that's Sam.

That's Sam.

1:00:48

He's a dancer.

He was a professional dancer.

1:00:51

Professional.

Dancer and they said, yeah, he just moved back from Utah.

1:00:57

He lived in Utah.

And so there was a dance company came to Cheyenne, you know, like they they only had like one night

1:01:04

shows, right?

Yeah.

1:01:05

And I thought, I need to go to that because he's the dancer.

Yeah.

1:01:08

So I got somebody that I work with, Ruth, to go with me.

And it was the Indianapolis Ballet.

1:01:13

Sam always reminds me this it was the Indianapolis Ballet.

All these Indianapolis things were pointing me down.

1:01:19

That's so.

Crazy.

1:01:20

And so he's not there.

And if I'm talking too long, shut me.

1:01:25

Up No, this is.

Great.

1:01:26

OK.

So then sort of disappointed, but I like the ballet.

1:01:30

That was fine.

Then we went out to a hotel bar, which is the only bar where gay people went in Cheyenne.

1:01:35

OK And she and I had a drink, and he comes in with another guy.

So I already knew.

1:01:42

And I'm like, oh, man, he's already going out with him.

And turned out he wasn't.

1:01:47

They were just friends.

But I'm kind of quiet, even though people don't think I really am.

1:01:52

I'm very quiet.

Yeah.

1:01:53

So Ruth says to Sam.

Maury wants to go out with you.

1:01:57

Thank you, Ruth.

Perfect.

1:01:59

And we did.

And that was 38 years ago, 38 years.

1:02:02

We've been together ever since.

He had just got a new job in Cheyenne.

1:02:06

He and we're of the generation where you stay in jobs for a little while.

He didn't want to like be job hopper, right?

1:02:12

So he's going to stay in Cheyenne for a year and then come out to Indianapolis.

But he helped me move and we stayed at Tim and Maureen's house, his friend.

1:02:20

And Tim says, oh, we have a job at our office.

He borrowed Tim's suit, went and got that interviewed, got the job, came back two weeks later, and

1:02:29

he has lived here ever since.

Anyway, wow.

1:02:32

So then that was in, that was 88.

We've been here since 88.

1:02:36

In 92, he was diagnosed with AIDS and he's still alive today.

So it's that is a good thing.

1:02:43

One of the reasons he's still alive is because he has such a good support group.

And part of that is from the Damien Center.

1:02:50

And the Damien Center was created in, I want to say, 8889 to serve people with AIDS.

And for those who don't remember, you didn't live very long when you had AIDS in 88 and 89.

1:03:05

It was more of help, mostly men.

OK.

1:03:08

Yeah.

Die.

1:03:09

So after we found all this out with Sam, he started going the Damien Center.

It was just a few blocks from us at the time.

1:03:16

He ultimately got on some medicine that made him healthy again.

So he he worked for a while, but then he started volunteering at the Damien Center.

1:03:25

He helped start their food pantry because many people with diseases like that don't have the

resources to get food.

1:03:33

Even so he volunteered that till the pandemic.

He was on the board for eight years.

1:03:39

Coincidentally, the city works with the Damien Center because there's federal funds, one is called

HOPWA, Housing Opportunities for Persons with AIDS, and then there's some other federal funds that

1:03:49

help people with AIDS.

Yeah.

1:03:51

So after I left the city, they asked me to be on the board because I knew that part of it.

They all knew Sam, you know, I knew lots about it.

1:04:01

And a couple of years after that, this is I'm in my 9th year, I think.

And a couple years after we hired a new executive director who has helped the agency grow.

1:04:14

So going from an AIDS service organization only it is now a community Health Center.

Basically it's.

1:04:22

AI didn't realize that.

Yeah, it's it's all been in the last basically the last five years, OK, maybe a few more than that.

1:04:29

But you know, if you're if you're going to a center because you're ill and you might need medicine.

So we have a pharmacy now.

1:04:37

We have doctors counseling all of that kind of stuff and it it has grown so much that we are

building a new building and it will open hopefully in April.

1:04:50

So hopefully and in.

April.

1:04:52

That's so.

Exciting.

1:04:53

I've been very involved in the building committee, I bet, given my history with planning and zoning.

And so I yeah, I've been in, I've seen the building about 20 times.

1:05:04

It's, it's beautiful.

It's on Washington Street downtown.

1:05:07

But that new building will be a full Health Center, even have dental care and, you know, they pride

lunches for people.

1:05:14

The food pantry is going to be huge.

And so that's that's my work with the Damien Center.

1:05:20

Look, all that, I mean that's, I mean that with Beyond and with Tangram, that's so incredible to do

all those things you're gonna you're inspiring me to just do more with the community.

1:05:30

It's.

Do more, do more, we can all do.

1:05:33

More we can all do.

More well, I I encourage runners who listen to this who've never volunteered at a race to volunteer

1:05:39

because I never had volunteered at a race until joining the board Beyond Monumental, which is almost

embarrassing to admit because of all the races I had done.

1:05:48

You just take the volunteers for granted and you don't really know the logistics about where they

come from, but literally anybody can volunteer so.

1:05:55

You're right.

And and we need volunteers.

1:05:58

Back on my feet needs volunteers.

Certainly.

1:06:00

I probably did.

I did a couple water stops and I'll be, I'll be true about this.

1:06:05

I don't like water stops.

I can understand why it's so hard.

1:06:10

It's it's usually why did caramel once it was so cold, I was like freezing and then and so that's

part of it.

1:06:17

But then the other part of it is I want to be running.

I guess I'd much rather run, run than do the water stuff.

1:06:23

But yeah, the volunteers are what make it, you know, and what I'm sure you do what I do, you know,

thank everyone that's volunteering because they are giving their time and they're giving more time

1:06:34

than we are, right?

You know, they're, you know, they're starting from the very beginning of it.

1:06:38

Say if it's a marathon, you know there's people like 6 hours, you know, you know there's out there a

long time where we might be 4, three or four hours, right?

1:06:47

But yeah, I think that can be hard, harder than just running because I mean, Ashley Haynes and I did

the monumental kids movement.

1:06:53

We not last year of the year before did a what?

The water stop at the finish.

1:06:57

And I that was the first time I ever done a water station.

And I just remembered being like, this is like a sport.

1:07:02

I mean, filling, stacking, organizing, moving cups.

Like it just was wild to me.

1:07:08

I was like, wow, I have a deeper appreciation for all race volunteers now.

Yeah.

1:07:13

So Sam and his disability that you mentioned was that is that coincide with his is AIDS diagnosis?

Yes, OK.

1:07:20

It's all related.

All related, OK.

1:07:22

Yeah, that's when we met.

He was a dancer.

1:07:25

He was a runner.

He was actually a much better runner than me.

1:07:29

Yeah.

And then there are a number of side diseases or side diseases, I guess.

1:07:35

I say that you.

Yeah.

1:07:36

And 1, the initials are CMV.

And I have no idea what CMV actually stands for, but it's it affects your eyes.

1:07:46

And so some people, you know, go blind, which he did, but it was a number of years.

I bet it took 12 to 15 years before he totally went blind, lost his eyesight in one eye and then and

1:07:57

then eventually lost it in the other eye about about seven years ago.

He's a very strong person and a very, very positive person and he's still living life.

1:08:10

I take him to the gym once a week.

Oh, he's also had a hip replacement and a femur replacement, all because of things that related to

1:08:18

this.

And so he's he's not, he doesn't look physically very able to do things, but he will still do

1:08:25

things.

Yeah.

1:08:26

So.

So anyone, no matter where you are, can still do stuff.

1:08:30

Right.

And when you think about how hard your run is.

1:08:33

Yeah, right, right.

Yeah, right.

1:08:35

And he's so somebody that's blind that goes to NIFS.

Pretty much everyone knows who he is.

1:08:41

Yeah.

It's, it's like it's, it's kind of a, a cool thing to say.

1:08:45

Yeah.

People come and talk to.

1:08:47

Him so cool, right?

That they know.

1:08:49

So what will he do while he's at the gym with you?

Oh, he has that trainer.

1:08:52

OK, a trainer.

Well, yeah, he can't be by himself per SE.

1:08:56

And so he has said over over the years by three or four different trainers.

And the idea really for him is to be able to get out of a chair and not fall over it.

1:09:05

It's at that point.

And so, you know, she does that kind of stuff to keep his leg strong and keep his arm strong and,

1:09:12

and a lot of it to keep his mental.

It's for him to doing something I can do something I can.

1:09:17

I can go out.

Yeah.

1:09:18

So.

So that's where we are.

1:09:20

But we have very supportive families.

Yeah.

1:09:22

So other people, yeah.

Come and help.

1:09:26

Wow, that's a lot.

Yeah, that's a lot, Maury.

1:09:30

That's incredible that he's lived that long.

Oh yeah, I will say.

1:09:34

I would never, I wouldn't have get.

I didn't know that.

1:09:36

I didn't think that honestly.

When he first was first diagnosed, the doctor said two years, so 92.

1:09:43

I didn't think he lived to be 35 and then 40.

He's 65.

1:09:48

He's like, it's amazing.

That's amazing.

1:09:51

And it didn't sit around.

I mean, yeah.

1:09:53

I mean, yeah, no wonder you think about accessibility and around the city you're thinking about,

yeah, somebody who's blind is not going to know that this is here because it makes no sense that

1:10:02

it's here.

And does he walk?

1:10:04

Well, so when he lost eyesight in one eye, there's an organization called the National Federation

for the Blind and they have an Indiana chapter.

1:10:11

OK, so we had so he contacted them and got involved with them.

It's they have meetings and stuff.

1:10:17

Well, they have a guy named Ron who coincidentally, I think he still does.

He owned the snack bar at the City County building.

1:10:25

Yeah.

Now, I didn't know who he was, but but Ron came and taught him how to walk with the white cane and

1:10:31

would take him out and do that.

So.

1:10:33

So he could do that.

Yeah.

1:10:36

Now with the with the hip and stuff, he does walk with the Walker in the house.

He can walk by himself.

1:10:43

But to go outside, it's with me.

Yeah.

1:10:46

It just usually is with me.

He usually won't go out without.

1:10:49

Yeah, without me, Yeah, but he can walk.

And you said supportive families, not just for obviously the disability side of things, but I've

1:10:58

pictured Nebraska and Wyoming and Indiana not as very accepting places.

Yeah, it's kind of coincidentally a week ago Sunday we talked about our coming out story to our

1:11:10

church.

Did you We go to a church that's.

1:11:13

There's a Lutheran Church that is very welcoming.

And so we told our story and both of us never thought we would come out to anyone per SE.

1:11:25

Yeah.

1:11:26

First was just coming out to other gay people.

And that's fine.

1:11:30

That's the way it is.

Yeah.

1:11:31

We didn't come out to our families till Sam was sick and we had to Then, you know, you can't let him

guess then.

1:11:38

Yeah.

He went home and told his parent, his mom, his dad had already passed away.

1:11:43

And he's from a family of nine and they all live there.

Super supportive.

1:11:48

I had to, I ended up writing my family a letter.

They still lived in Nebraska at the time and I was working And it was, I didn't know how they react.

0:00

Anyway, they were fine.

1:11:57

And in their case, it was more of I believe that they thought it was a choice till I told them that

it wasn't a choice because it is not a choice.

1:12:07

Something I knew as five years old.

I didn't know what it was.

1:12:10

Yeah.

But I absolutely both of us have known since childhood.

1:12:14

And they said, oh, we know that you wouldn't choose something like that.

And so they're fine.

1:12:19

Like I said, they moved here.

And so we had like, I have two brothers and the families, we have nieces and nephews that only know

1:12:26

us together.

Yeah.

1:12:27

You know, we've been together so long.

Yeah.

1:12:29

And yeah, they're they're our families are, are fantastic.

And even our extended families, cousins, aunts and uncles, yeah, they all know we have had very

1:12:39

little negative experiences in our life.

Very lucky.

1:12:42

That's not the way it always is, but very lucky.

But I will also say there's places I probably wouldn't go, you know?

1:12:52

Well, I think about you chose between San Francisco and Indianapolis to live initially too.

Like thinking about that as a gay man, you know, that also is interesting just to think like Indy

1:13:01

back then.

It's a lot better now, but I just think.

1:13:04

It is, but So what?

What is interesting, being gay had nothing to do with where I wanted to move, to move.

1:13:11

You know, it's just, it was just one part of me.

Sure.

1:13:14

You know, I moved to be a city planner.

Yeah.

1:13:17

I didn't move to to be in a gay life.

You know.

1:13:21

Yeah, yeah.

So.

1:13:22

So yeah.

It's probably ignorant for me to say, isn't it?

1:13:25

Then no, I I wouldn't say that.

OK.

1:13:27

I remember going to the very first Pride downtown Indianapolis and there were people, there were

people that were, you know, heckling, I guess.

1:13:35

You know how they are.

Yeah.

1:13:37

Back then, there were probably, I wouldn't say as many as there were in Pride, but, you know, you

kind of felt kind of scary.

1:13:44

I sang in the Indianapolis Men's Chorus back then, which is the gay Men's chorus town.

I sang in that for eight years, and we sang in the circle and these guys, people, I guess it's both

1:13:53

men and women saying, you know, God's going to send you to hell.

And, you know, God made me just like he made everyone else, you know, and he's not.

1:14:00

Things have changed a lot.

We are married.

1:14:03

I mean, we literally got married.

Who would have thought we would never?

1:14:05

Have thought that you were going.

To get married, We actually got married in San Francisco before you could get married here.

1:14:11

And it was that was a weird thing.

So my whole family was going to go to my brother's family for New Year's, OK.

1:14:17

And we were coming from different places, parts, parts of the country and and our friends got

married and they said, oh, it's and they had gone to some other state too, because you couldn't get

1:14:26

married here.

They said, oh, it's a big tax break.

1:14:29

And I said, oh, Sam, should we get married?

And that was what it was.

1:14:33

So then I I told everyone, oh, I think we're going to get married while we're out there.

So we went San Francisco City Hall.

1:14:39

Like I actually had a person officiate from out there.

My my whole family went, they kind of made a big deal about it.

1:14:45

Not a terribly big deal, but we didn't want them to.

And so that's how we got married.

1:14:50

And and I will say the tax break didn't work out, but, but everything else was fine.

That's funny.

1:14:57

I got a wedding ring out of the deal.

Yeah.

1:14:58

Yeah.

You.

1:14:59

Did.

Yeah.

1:15:01

And how long have you been married now?

We're in our 11th.

1:15:04

Year 11th year.

We're in our 12th year, 12th year this.

1:15:06

OK, yeah, but 30-8 years, the other one.

OK, so now I'm going to segue to talk about Fox Hollow Farm.

1:15:12

Can we talk about that?

You moved here in 19908888?

1:15:17

Sorry, Yeah, 88.

And then why was I thinking early 90s?

1:15:21

Because that's when Fox Hollow.

Because that's when it happened.

1:15:23

Yeah, I watched this morning and I'm like, what?

I knew that, you know, it's right off the Mona on this farm.

1:15:30

Right.

But I would love to hear like you were in it.

1:15:35

We were kind of, I will say we were sort of sort of in it.

We do live downtown.

1:15:40

If you've seen that documentary Fox Hollow Murders, and if you haven't seen it, I would.

Recommend watch it.

1:15:46

The only reason I watched it was because the guy that cuts my hair who is straight said oh you

should watch this because he knew where I lived anyway so we live 1 block from the main bar where

1:15:59

people got picked up.

We probably should set what this?

1:16:02

Is we should because no, I'm like so into it and so.

So back in the 90s, there were gay men coming up missing, most of them from a bar called Our Place.

1:16:13

And like the FBUFBI was involved and there were posters in the bars and stuff and no one was knowing

what happened.

1:16:21

And so somebody, it was in Westfield.

I think that's where Foxhall are from.

1:16:26

Yes.

To the Hamilton County Sheriff, I think said, oh, I got picked up by somebody and they tried to kill

1:16:33

me and then they found out who that guy was.

And Fox Hollow Farms is in Westfield and it was a big acreage and a wealthy person who ended up

1:16:46

picking up these gay men and killing them somehow.

And there's thousands of bones on the property.

1:16:52

So they found them in the 90.

So that's most I remember the story about there were people missing.

1:16:58

I remember the story about him being caught.

Well, he wasn't caught.

1:17:03

I took that about about knowing what it was and, and the bones being found.

So we were we were a couple and so and we're a couple that we we rarely did stuff by ourselves.

1:17:16

So so I think aside from one person that I saw in this documentary, everyone else was a single

person who got picked up.

1:17:23

So so us to go out and you.

Wouldn't have been a target.

1:17:26

We wouldn't have been a target and we wouldn't even really be thinking about because it wasn't even

really just us, it would be with friends, you know?

1:17:32

Yeah.

And did you go to our place?

1:17:34

Oh yeah.

It's like down the street, but I mean, not, not a lot.

1:17:38

We were in our 30s.

We were like, well, that's what I thought you're. 30 You're not like hitting the.

1:17:42

Bars all the time anymore.

But, I mean, we did, yeah, especially in the summer.

1:17:46

That's when I think it happened because his wife was gone in the summer.

But we have really good friends next door that one of them was single at the time.

1:17:55

And he remembers the guy, the murderer, seeing him at the bars.

And he also remembers some of his people that he knew came up missing.

1:18:04

And so it was.

It's really more as much scary now to think about it as it was then.

1:18:10

That documentary leaves so many questions.

So many.

1:18:14

Yeah, it really talks about, about how could one person do that by themselves?

And it certainly implies that there's other people involved and, and maybe they're in the

1:18:23

documentary, but it tells a lot about how people felt about the gay community in the 90s because it

was not a priority to find this person who did the murders, who ended up committing suicide without

1:18:41

ever being interviewed by any Police Department, which, you know, now one person goes missing,

right?

1:18:48

Well, let's put this, we hear about some people that go missing.

I know there's lots of people go missing and we don't hear about that's true.

1:18:55

But you know, then there's lots of, oh, we got to interview people and all that.

Kind of stuff, yeah.

1:18:59

So yeah, yeah, the closest thing that I ever remembered to that is before I met Sam and Shy.

And Denver was the place that you went out.

1:19:06

And I have my best friend from college lived in Doug.

He's only 90 miles from Shyton.

1:19:10

And I remember the first time I went to a bar, I gave bar and he said we need to stay in the middle

because they're bombing the bar.

1:19:18

And so that's the only thing I have ever experienced with, oh, they might bomb the bar because we're

in here.

1:19:23

You know, that kind of a thing.

Yeah, that was in the early. 80s Yeah.

1:19:27

Yeah.

Well, what is the documentaries available on Hulu and Disney Plus?

1:19:30

So like we said, if you have not watched that, go watch it.

And where I live in Carmel, the Fox Hollow farm still stands and it's 5 miles from my house.

1:19:41

And when I run on the Monon, I run by it all the time.

I had no idea.

1:19:47

I knew that it was a creepy house, like something had happened there, but I didn't know the extent

of what had happened there.

1:19:53

And they said in the documentary it's the largest collection of human remains unidentified outside

of September 11th.

1:19:59

I know that's.

That's amazing to me.

1:20:01

Are you kidding me?

In Indianapolis, right?

1:20:03

And they haven't.

I mean, I think more is happening now.

1:20:06

I it should because.

I knew it was on the Monon too, only because some other friends told me, hey, you've been by that

1:20:12

place.

And this is this was a couple years ago.

1:20:14

And I said, really?

Because I bike up there.

1:20:16

Yeah.

And well, now I know exactly where.

1:20:19

Now, you know, now I'll go buy it.

And another Joe, the, the guy that knew him, he has a good friend that lives across across the Creek

1:20:28

from there.

And she didn't live there at the time.

1:20:30

Yeah, however, she knows someone that that still lives there that lived across the Creek when it

happened.

1:20:35

And there apparently were some like flies or something that are usually around dead animals.

For two years they had them while this was happening.

1:20:43

Oh, that's so creepy.

So there's lots of creepy things.

1:20:46

Yeah, yeah.

So let's hope that never happens again.

1:20:50

Well, I feel like it can't now.

I mean, now they would care.

1:20:53

Like the Sheriff's Department didn't care at all.

I don't think it wasn't a priority.

1:20:56

They didn't even like, they didn't care until a guy literally came in and was like somebody tried to

murder me.

1:21:01

Right, right.

Or and the skeleton.

1:21:03

Anyway.

We won't give it all away, but.

1:21:04

Yeah, right.

Watch it.

1:21:06

Watch it.

Yeah, it's totally worth it.

1:21:07

Yeah, and you mentioned Viking.

We didn't even talk about all your biking stuff running out of time, but you've done some big bike

1:21:13

races too, not just running races.

Yeah, not.

1:21:15

Just are they not?

Racist.

1:21:17

Not racist, not racist.

I can't race.

1:21:19

I can't compete in everything.

But you've done some.

1:21:23

Long Everything I do, I shouldn't say everything, but many things I just kind of fall into it.

Yeah, so who?

1:21:31

Who roped you into biking far?

So a really good friend was a biker, but he actually has he lived here for a while and has lived in

1:21:40

other parts of the country and lives in Baltimore now.

OK.

1:21:43

But he comes and sees us like every other year and and stays for like a couple weeks and and somehow

we got talking about biking and he and Oh, I know it all came about is that the RAGBRA race is the

1:21:58

big, there's it's a it's a ride across Iowa, OK, And it's a lot.

I think it's the longest, or at least the biggest bicycle ride in the country.

1:22:09

Thousands and thousands of people ride for a week across Iowa.

They put their bike in the Missouri River at the beginning and then Mississippi at the end.

1:22:18

And I'm like, oh, I want I'm going to do that sometime.

And some back of my feet friends had done it.

1:22:22

And and Steve goes, well, that's it's too much for me.

And it probably is, it's probably too much for me.

1:22:29

Too many people, right.

Yeah, he goes.

1:22:31

But hey, we could do this other bike ride, just you and me, right.

And I like, well, sure, let's do it.

1:22:37

And so we planned for a year.

And so our our first one was called the Allegheny Passage.

1:22:43

It's the Allegheny Passage through Pennsylvania mostly.

And then the CNO Canal Trail from the end of West Virginia, I believe down to DC.

1:22:53

Oh geez.

It's a, it's a rail trail in the mountains.

1:22:57

And yeah, we live in this flat.

Baltimore's flat too.

1:23:01

Yeah.

1:23:01

And I thought, well, that's going to be too much, but we read about it and it's, since it's a rail

train, it was only 3% grade or something.

1:23:08

OK.

So we drove out to Baltimore.

1:23:12

We drove to Pittsburgh, took a week and biked this Allegheny passage and see, you know, railroading,

that's eight and a little cool.

1:23:20

Airbnb's.

It's a it's a little, it's an economic, economic development thing for these small towns.

1:23:26

So we did that and then, oh, we had so much fun that we then did the Natchez Parkway, which is from

Nashville to Natchez, Ms. and it's Natchez flat.

1:23:37

No that.

Was not flat.

1:23:38

That was not flat.

That was it was, it was fun, But Natchez Trace was a Native American trading path from Nashville,

1:23:48

Natchez to Nashville.

And the federal government created a National Park along it.

1:23:53

So it's this narrow.

When I say narrow, you can't.

1:23:56

It's probably miles, but, yeah, narrow park all the way down.

And they have a Parkway, a highway through it.

1:24:01

But the part, the speed limits, 55 or something, no trucks.

All that can be is cars and campers.

1:24:07

All right.

Yeah.

1:24:08

And so many bikers do that.

So we did that.

1:24:11

Wow.

Then we did the Katy Trail, and that's kind of a famous one.

1:24:15

Once you start biker, it's a trail all the way across Missouri, along the Missouri Murray River.

We did that and then I took my nephew on one in Nebraska and he's an adult.

1:24:26

He was an adult.

I said it was kind of like, hey, you want to do this Cowboy trail?

1:24:30

So Cowboy Trail is a rail trail in Western NE.

So it's out in what's called the Sandhills.

1:24:35

So it's not desert like, but there's no tree.

Yeah.

1:24:39

So we so we did that.

And so those are the my main bike rides and I would love to do some more, but that that you have to

1:24:46

take a lot of planning a lot of time.

Yeah.

1:24:49

And and you mentioned the hills in in Tennessee that that was the hills were hard.

That would be really tough.

1:24:54

That was harder than running.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:24:56

You said at the beginning your mom still rides a bike.

Where does she ride?

1:24:59

Does she ride on like the cultural trail or?

No, She's in Castleton.

1:25:01

So where does she?

Go She rides in her neighborhood now OK, but now she has a bike night ride with me several times.

1:25:08

Oh yeah, probably, probably she wouldn't now so if those two don't don't know night ride is a 20

mile bike ride in Indianapolis in the summer that starts at 11:00 at night like downtown and goes

1:25:20

through the neighborhoods.

Very, very very cool.

1:25:21

She's done it a couple times.

My nephew has done it with us and yeah, she she's very, very active physically.

1:25:30

Yeah, that's amazing.

So I I feel like you're not going to stop running anytime soon if you have if.

1:25:34

I can't stop ever, because if I stop then I'll stop.

Yeah, right.

1:25:38

Exactly.

Speaking of stopping, we have to ask the end of the podcast questions now, which I don't want to do

1:25:43

because I love been great.

This has been so much fun.

1:25:46

And you've run New York City Marathon as well, which we didn't even talk about.

And what's team BLC?

1:25:52

I saw this.

That's that's a so I mentioned I do the 317 releases and so I started by myself doing and well,

1:26:00

then, oh, there's these two guys that go to my church BLC is Bethlehem Lutheran Church.

And so a couple years ago I did a couple and then and so those who don't know run 317 is a run, but

1:26:13

it's also a pretty big party and a very fun party.

And it's very diverse age wise and just in general very diverse.

1:26:21

There's young people and there's people older like we are.

And so, so we, we don't run together, but we have beer together.

1:26:30

And so then and it's become a little bit bigger.

And of course, Tim posts.

1:26:35

About it.

So yeah.

1:26:36

He created team.

BL That's cute.

1:26:38

I love it.

Yeah, you.

1:26:39

You don't.

So you don't have shirts?

1:26:41

No, we don't have, we don't have shirts, but we have had people at church like somebody's texting

me.

1:26:46

Oh, I didn't know you were a.

Runner, right?

1:26:48

That's right.

Yeah.

1:26:48

That's cool.

1:26:50

So I have two end of the podcast questions.

OK, and the first one is what is your favorite running song and or mantra?

1:26:58

And I found out you don't listen to music so.

No, I don't listen to music and that's very important to me because I don't want to be hit by a car.

0:00

There, that's.

1:27:06

And I almost was one time, but I heard him.

And so I don't.

1:27:09

And so I kind of, I know lots of people listen to music with their own, but I, I tell people not to

do that.

1:27:15

Yeah.

But my mantra is, is I can always run a mile.

1:27:20

And so like when you're with people, yeah, you can easily always run a mile, I think.

But when I'm training for a marathon and I do train now, even though I didn't.

1:27:31

So I'm running the 20 Miller and I'm at mile 17 and I'm like, I want to just quit.

And I go, I can run a mile.

1:27:39

Yeah, and and I can.

And so I do tell that to Beckham life because you can run a mile or you can run a block, right?

1:27:45

You can always run a little bit.

So so I I continue.

1:27:49

I like that a lot, Yeah.

Because it's just.

1:27:51

It's true.

Yeah, and you'll have to run fast and.

1:27:54

If you think about it all the whole thing, especially when you start thinking about the ultra

runners and stuff like that, like you're running 100 miles.

1:28:00

But then if you boil it down like I can run one mile 100 times, yeah, I can't.

Maybe.

1:28:05

But yeah, I like that a lot.

And then next finish liner milestone.

1:28:09

We talked about the milestone with the Damien Center's new building.

That is so cool.

1:28:13

Congrats again.

But you're running Chicago in the fall.

1:28:15

So have you done Chicago before?

No, I have not.

1:28:20

Oh it.

Didn't be of the lottery.

1:28:22

No, I qualified.

I have this thing about trying to qualify, and I do.

1:28:28

And I have.

I've been lucky.

1:28:30

I qualified.

So I ran Carmel last year.

1:28:34

OK, Carmel about that.

I wasn't really going to do that.

1:28:36

I kind of was.

New York, was it?

1:28:38

New York was it?

I got to stop running marathons.

1:28:41

Well, when I'm training with these guys at back of my feet, we had two guys were going to run Carmel

Marathon.

1:28:45

Well, by the time you train with somebody else, well, I should just do it too.

Yeah.

1:28:50

And so then I then I get my little competitive self and it's with me competitive.

Well, if I'm going to run Carmel, I'm going to qualify for Chicago with the idea.

1:29:00

I've run New York, I've run Boston and I'll run Chicago.

And that's the three American races of the.

1:29:08

World Majors.

The world majors.

1:29:10

And so that's why I'm doing.

I'm in.

1:29:12

I qualified, I'm gonna train.

I haven't started training, but I'm gonna train and I'm gonna do that.

1:29:18

Usually Chicago, it's like 4th of July weekend is what used to kick off my Chicago Marathon

training.

1:29:23

Well, that's yeah, I have plenty of time to.

Start.

1:29:24

So you do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:29:26

Anyway, so that's what I'm gonna do this fall.

You're gonna love.

1:29:29

It everyone says.

It's yeah.

1:29:30

I mean, it's just the best, yeah.

Especially compared to New York, which is difficult in Hilly.

1:29:34

It was, it was difficult.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:29:37

So that's big, yeah.

And how do you have a total like of how many half marathons or marathons you've done?

1:29:44

The the marathons is is under 10 but close to 10.

The half is probably close to 50.

1:29:49

I I.

Don't know.

1:29:51

Yeah, I've done over 50 so.

Yeah, I, I don't really have a total.

1:29:54

I've never really told it up.

I mean, I'll, it's a lot if, if I'm ever going anywhere now, I always look to see if there is a

1:30:01

race.

I mean, I love running in other cities.

1:30:04

Yeah.

Because you see so much, you know, of the city that's great that people don't see even when you're

1:30:10

walking because you're usually running.

I run in the morning by myself.

1:30:14

I see all this kind of stuff, so I, I don't know many, many half marathons.

That's really the the run, that's the race for me.

1:30:20

Right.

It's easy.

1:30:22

It's, I mean, I know people are going to say, what do you mean it's easy?

It's easy when you run this much.

1:30:26

Yeah, yeah.

So are you doing caramel and the mini this year?

1:30:30

I might do the mini.

I'm not going to do caramel.

1:30:32

OK.

The the the reason I might do the mini is bat with a there's a couple of back on my feet guys.

1:30:37

I'm going to see if if they want they want somebody to run with them.

One of them is has his father is my age, but his father lives in Florida.

1:30:45

And I said, well, get your father to come and I'll run with you and your father.

Yeah.

1:30:49

So.

So I'm, I might do that.

1:30:50

Yeah.

But no, I'm not.

1:30:51

I mean, I probably could run the half at Carmel.

But yeah, I mean, you could.

1:30:55

I'm not going to.

I'm not going to either, which is very hard because I could have and I can.

1:31:01

I just I'm going to be a full time spectator this year.

So the race is putting me at mile 20 with a microphone and music in a tent.

1:31:10

And so I'm going to try to recruit as many people as I can to like make a big spectating thing

because I've run caramel enough and I'll be really jealous of everybody running if it's a really

1:31:19

nice day.

But it's spectating is is so gratifying, too.

1:31:23

Just like volunteering.

So I'm really excited about that.

1:31:26

And then the mini.

I'm doing an event the night before at Bottleworks.

1:31:30

Oh, I think I saw that, Yeah.

So.

1:31:32

I'm really excited about mini weekend and I'm doing Ainsley's Angels pushing.

Yeah, again, which I'm super pumped about as well.

1:31:39

So yeah, so it sounds like you're gonna be there.

You should be there.

1:31:42

I probably won't.

I know it sounds like a yes.

1:31:45

Well, thank you again for doing this.

It was so much fun.

1:31:47

Thanks for having me.

Absolutely thank you to everybody who listened and happy running if you enjoyed this episode of

1:31:54

Finish Lines and Milestones from Sandy Boyd Productions.

Please go share rate review, it really helps.

1:32:01

The show and it means a lot to me personally and I will see you next week.

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