Finish Lines & Milestones: Episode 165: Tammy Mills - Chin Up, Crown On

Guest: Tammy Mills @mills365lego

Show Notes:

Tammy Mills⁠ and I finally met in real life for this interview. Her journey from never being allowed to play sports as a kid to running the New York City Marathon when she turned 60 is one I know you will find inspiring.

During this episode, sponsored by ⁠Noogs⁠ and ⁠Batch⁠, we talk about:

• How she found her coach, ⁠Christi Dee⁠, after attempting to train for the New York City Marathon using multiple training apps
• Growing up in Selma, Indiana and never being allowed to play sports as a kid
• Finding running in her 30s while getting sober, and running the Indy Mini with Ken Long's training program
• Her infamous "Jump the Gun" story — and the lady with the purse who passed her
• Truly finding running in her 50s after realizing she couldn't keep up with her kids at a Tamika Catchings basketball camp
• Running from mailbox to mailbox until she fell in love with movement
• Her first marathon at Indianapolis Monumental in 2016 — buying new shoes the day before and swearing she'd never run another one
• Running five marathons total, including the Kentucky Derby Marathon and Shamrock Marathon
• Her ultramarathon debut at The Full Mo, finishing despite a serious foot cramping injury
• Becoming a Peloton devotee through Robin Arzon and the Swagger Society community
• Running the New York City Marathon with Kathrine Switzer's 261 Fearless team for her 60th birthday
• Her mantra, "you don't know what you can't do," and how it carried her through training and the race itself
• Her path to becoming a United Methodist pastor, getting defrocked after coming out, and eventually being "re-frocked" and serving a church in Michigan City
• Meeting her wife Nancy, their fight to legally adopt their children as a same-sex couple in Indiana, and celebrating Pride Month together as a family
• 32 years of sobriety and how running and gratitude have transformed her life
• Her love of building Lego and her Instagram account, mills365lego
• Heading back to New York City Marathon this fall, running for ⁠Tell Every Amazing Lady⁠ (ovarian cancer research)

Previous Guests Mentioned

• ⁠⁠Whitney Heins⁠⁠ - Episode 163
• ⁠⁠Mike Vollmer⁠⁠ - Episode 156
• ⁠⁠Christi Dee⁠⁠ - Episode 3
• ⁠⁠Mary Pittman⁠⁠ - Episode 10

Sponsor Details

• ⁠Noogs⁠ - Use ALLYB for 15% off
• ⁠Batch⁠ - Use FINISH for 30% off

Other Links

• ⁠Support Tammy's Tell Every Amazing Lady NYC Marathon fundraiser⁠
• Follow me on Instagram ⁠@allytbrett_runs⁠
• ⁠Subscribe to Finish Lines & Milestones weekly newsletter⁠

This is a ⁠SandyBoy Productions⁠ podcast.

Episode Transcript:

Tammy Mills: The world has always told me, " You can't be this 'cause you're a woman.

You can't be this 'cause you're gay. And I finally realized, no, that's the world telling me. I wanna find out what I can do. I don't know what I can't do.

Ally: Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones, a podcast for everyday runners. I'm your host, Ally Brettnacher, and if you run, you're a runner, and every runner has a story. Join me each week as I share these stories, and we celebrate finish lines and milestones together.

Ally Brettnacher: this episode is brought to you by the Noogs Make Your Run More Fun Challenge of the Week. One thing I did to make my run more fun this week was I got to run up at the lake. A change of scenery always makes it so much more fun, and I opted for no music. Birds over beats

Another way to make your run more fun is by fueling with Noogs. They taste just like sour gummy candy. They're designed for performance with quick-digesting carbs, essential electrolytes, and easy-to-chew texture. You can use code ALLYB, A-L-L-Y-B, for 15% off your first [00:01:00] order and get free shipping when you grab two or more cartons, lower 48 only.

I also recommend the Ally combo, which is a combo of electric watermelon and blue raspberry blast. Those are my two favorites. You can click the link in the episode description to grab yours now, and here is to having more fun on the run

And now for today's guest, it is someone who embodies what this podcast is all about, proving to yourself you're capable of so much more than the world has told you. Tammy Mills grew up in tiny Selma, Indiana, and was never allowed to play sports as a kid, didn't find running until her 50s, and since then she's run five marathons, including the New York City Marathon, With Katherine Switzer's 261 Fearless team, completed two ultra-marathons, and is heading back to New York this fall to do it again. But this episode is about so much more than just running. Tammy's a former elementary school teacher, a United Methodist pastor who was officially defrocked and then refrocked, a Peloton devotee, a Lego master, and since we're recording during Pride Month, a proud [00:02:00] member of the LGBTQ+ community, Tammy has been with her wife Nancy for over two decades and raised three incredible kids together.

She is one of the most joyful, funny, open-hearted people I have interviewed on this podcast. I think you're gonna love her. This is Tammy Mills

good morning, Tammy.

Tammy Mills: Good morning, Ally. It's so good to see you IRL.

Ally Brettnacher: so good to see you in person. Hell. It's so good to see you. I am so sad I didn't get to see you at the Full Mo.

Tammy Mills: I was looking forward to that, but it's very early in the morning, and I'm not at my best

Ally Brettnacher: my best. Me either. It's so true.

Tammy Mills: person at all. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: with the 200 people, I thought I would be able to see more people than I did.

Tammy Mills: Yeah, ' well, I got up at 4:00.

Ally Brettnacher: Yep, same

Tammy Mills: yeah, and stumbled down there, so.

Ally Brettnacher: What time did you get to the start?

Tammy Mills: I was probably 20 till by the time I

Ally Brettnacher: here Oh, okay.

Tammy Mills: Yeah. 'Cause Christi had said be there at 5:40, so I got there at 5:45. There

Ally Brettnacher: coach says. Yeah. Shout out to Coach Christi. How long have you been working with her?

Tammy Mills: about a year and a half or maybe a little longer.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. How did you find her? Did you meet her at a race

Tammy Mills: yeah, well, It was two years ago, and I was training for the New York City Marathon and [00:03:00] had no clue what I was doing. So I had downloaded, you know, all the, um, RunIt, like stuff like that, which are- Yeah ... they're all fabulous, but in my quest to do a marathon, I downloaded them all and was trying to follow all the plans,

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, boy.

Yeah. And you're like,

Tammy Mills: And I knew I w- that was just a disaster, and I'd always felt like running coaches were really for real runners.

Ally Brettnacher: what I thought.

Tammy Mills: Yeah. So, I was desperate, and I ran the women's half marathon or whatever.

Ally Brettnacher: Okay, the Indy Women's- Yeah ... okay. Yep. Which

Tammy Mills: I have a long history of that race, but anyway, I had run that, and, in the packet was one of her things.

I'm like, "Well, I, I think I need help, and whether I deserve a coach or not, I'm gonna give it a

Ally Brettnacher: I know. I thought the same thing. I was... I thought, "Well, elite athletes, professionals have coaches."

Tammy Mills: I'm not really an athlete, but I've come to embrace that I am your average athlete. Yeah, me too.

Ally Brettnacher: me too. Shout out Shout out, Mary.

Tammy Mills: but, I've come to embrace that now and- Yeah ... yeah, but that's was life-changing, run- at least running life-changing-

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, I agree

Tammy Mills: a coach 'cause otherwise I was just figuring out what to do, and every run I just tried to go a little faster and a little farther. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Which is kind of [00:04:00] the point, but also- Yeah ... then you realize you're not supposed to be going fast every time and- I had no idea ... me either ... that that was true, so.

Tammy Mills: Yeah. So yeah, I just thought every run had to be a little faster and a little farther, and that was killing me. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

Tammy Mills: So, and I wanted to be able to run a marathon and not hate running after the marathon.

Great. And, and working with her made that possible.

Ally Brettnacher: That's a good testament. For sure.

Tammy Mills: Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Well, when did you start, when did you find running?

Tammy Mills: when did I find running? I may be your oldest person here at the podcast,

Ally Brettnacher: podcast, but- You know you're not, 'cause

Tammy Mills: I have- Oh, that's- ... a niece

Ally Brettnacher: not ... he's 80, so. Oh,

Tammy Mills: that's right. Yeah. And I may be older than your dad.

Ally Brettnacher: Okay. How old are you?

Tammy Mills: I am 61.

Ally Brettnacher: Nope. My dad just turned 70. Okay. So you're a young- Oh, my gosh ... you're a spring chicken, Tammy.

Tammy Mills: of the young ones here. You are. Hallelujah. Usually I'm the oldest one in the room,

Ally Brettnacher: That's what my dad always says. He always tries to find somebody older than him in a room.

Exactly. And he says it's getting harder. I'm like,

Tammy Mills: But the po- plus side, races, some races I have a possibility of winning

Ally Brettnacher: Heck yeah. Yes. A

Tammy Mills: of them I

Ally Brettnacher: I have. That's so fun.

Tammy Mills: It is fun. I still brag about it,

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, we'll have to talk more

Tammy Mills: I'm the only one. But how did [00:05:00] I find running? I'd always kinda liked the idea of running.

I was never an athlete or anything, 'cause how I grew up, was I couldn't be in sports. I probably kinda wanted to be in sports, but it just, girls didn't really do those things. That's the message I

Ally Brettnacher: okay.

Tammy Mills: And that it might be bad for me as a person to do that, so I really wasn't encouraged to do sports.

but I'd always kinda been intrigued by that and thought I might be great at sports, but I probably wouldn't

Ally Brettnacher: wouldn't have been. I really wasn't- Who knows? You could've been an Olympian,

Tammy Mills: could've been an Olympian. I could've been. Oh, woulda, coulda. Regrets. but I mean, I remember running a little bit and trying to do the mile, all that kinda stuff, so I was never an athlete or anything.

But then in my 30s when my life was taking all kinds of turbulent things, I did try to run then, and I had a sense that, you know, this might be something for me, but I could never get the consistency. That's the first time I ever ran the Indy Mini, and that was when I lived in Pendleton, and, I was getting sober.

I'm an actually sober person, and all that kinda stuff, and dealing with a lot of stuff, and running really kinda helped. So I, I did find running then. I ran the Mini. I ran it with Ken Long. Yeah. [00:06:00] Well, I didn't run with him, but- ... I did his program. Oh my God. And all that kinda stuff, and the Jump the Gun. I'd heard that one guy on your podcast talk about

Ally Brettnacher: talk about it- Right, Mike Vollmer's episode was really

Tammy Mills: story from the Jump the Gun, Here I was like this, oh, yeah, I

Ally Brettnacher: Tell people what it was again, just

Tammy Mills: in case they don't know. Oh, back in the day before there was the internet- ... you had to mail in your registration to races, and at midnight you went to St.

Francis Hospital, up on the south side somewhere I think, and, they had a special one-mile run around that you could do, and then at midnight you filled out your form, and you could turn it in and hope that you got in the mini marathon. So that's why I was at the Jump the Gun, and it was my first ever foray into racing or anything.

I'm there, of course, by myself. I do most of my running by myself, and I'm feeling pretty good. I'm in my 30s, so I'm not the old person I am today, and this lady with a purse passed me on the one mile. I'm like, "Oh, my Lord, somebody with a purse just

Ally Brettnacher: Somebody with a purse. No

Tammy Mills: offense to purse carriers, but that was hurtful.

But anyway, that's, that was,

Ally Brettnacher: that's-

Tammy Mills: yeah, that was hard on me. Yeah. But that's how, was how I got into the mini marathon. And I [00:07:00] did that a couple times, and I really enjoyed running, but for a vast array of reasons, never developed consistency or discipline or anything like that. Um, had a lot going on, I guess.

But, but I knew then that kinda planted a seed, and then it was in my 50s actually where I really found running. by that time I'd married my wife Nancy, and we had three kids, and you ha- I don't know, but you're kind of in the midst of that. Yeah. I'm an empty nester now.

You are. My last one just graduated. But anyway. Congratulations. That's a huge

Ally Brettnacher: That's a huge

Tammy Mills: still sleeping in my nest this morning. I don't know what was up with that.

Ally Brettnacher: kicking his out. That'll happen.

Tammy Mills: not happening. Ugh. But anyway, he's got another week or two, and he's out. No, I'm kidding. They can all live...

No, they can, but anyway. so I, had reached 50 and, the 40s were hard for me. I know you're turning 40, but don't panic. You're way ahead of me, so I was just a decade behind. So your 40s are gonna rock.

Ally Brettnacher: e- I'm excited.

Tammy Mills: should. Yeah. It's great. But when I turned 50, it was like I realized I couldn't keep up with my kids.

I'm an older mom. I didn't become a mom till I was, like, 35, 36. Okay. So I'd like to live long enough to see my grandchildren, but I don't want any [00:08:00] grandchildren now. I don't wanna be a grandma,

Ally Brettnacher: like

Tammy Mills: I- ... at all.

so I mean, I'll be a great one when the time comes- Yes ... but-

Ally Brettnacher: You're like, "Not yet, guys.

Tammy Mills: No.

I love it. But anyway. So the notion came to me, I would like to live longer, and I'd actually done a lot of personal work, you know, and different things. I actually kinda liked myself and wanted to live longer, and it was a great feeling. Mm-hmm. And so I decided I wanted to get healthy, and really it was, Catchings, my kids were at her basketball camp.

I love Tamika. And they were, uh, you know, well, I'm a lesbian. We love the WNBA and all that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. So Tamika's like goddess to me. And of course, we send our kids to her camps. But so my kids were at the camp, and then she invited parents to come down and play with their kids, and I realized I couldn't do it.

I could not have done it. I weighed probably 70 pounds more than I do now, and it wasn't just the weight, it was just like- I was not gonna be able to play with my kids, and that really broke my heart. Mm. Now, I didn't leave there and go. It was probably another year or so.

Mm-hmm, yeah, right. But that was my turning point, like, "I have to do something about that." So then the turning 50 just began moving, and I would just literally [00:09:00] walk from one mailbox to another s- mailbox, and then I started jogging between mailboxes, and that's kind of when I found running and began to really, I'd say running helped me get in my body for the first time.

I think I always lived in my head and outside of my body. So running really kind of put me in my body, and I began to enjoy it. I've never been fast or that great at it, but I really do love it, uh, uh, for what it does for me. Yeah. And I was kind of amazed when I could run from, to two mailboxes. Woo-hoo.

Ally Brettnacher: S- I mean- And

Tammy Mills: then three mailboxes.

Ally Brettnacher: somewhere.

Exactly. People ask how to start. That's how you start. You

Tammy Mills: yeah. That's what I always tell people, like, " Don't wait till you're ready to run. You're never gonna be ready- Right ... to run to the mailbox. You're just never gonna be." Right. You start moving.

And, and I always like to point out, it's just about movement. Movement is medicine, as Robin says. Yes. But it's true. For me, it was really true, and I think that's, whatever your favorite movement is, just freaking do it. Yes. Don't wait. Yeah. 'Cause you're never gonna feel like it. Well, do you wake up feeling like you wanna go?

I don't anyway. Yeah. But once you do it, you gotta get out there and do it. So that's when, how I came to [00:10:00] running then, and then little by little just fell in love with it. And I remember the first 5K I signed up for- it was a little one in my community and being so excited for that. And then ultimately my first half marathon was a little bit later, and it was Noblesville.

I don't know if they still do that one or not,

Ally Brettnacher: They don't, I don't think they do, because I did it one time-

Tammy Mills: I think. It was always on Memorial Day. It was like on the holiday

Ally Brettnacher: one, well, maybe there were multiple. I have no idea. But I think the one I did was in September. Okay. 'Cause I was training for a marathon, and so I was trying to do local half-marathons- Mm-hmm

just to get the miles in with company versus training by myself. That's how I do it too. Yeah. I

Tammy Mills: hate running alone by myself. But, I did that, and I remember the first marathon, or half marathon at Noblesville, like I just wanted to get to the end, like and I wanted to jog the whole way, and I did that, and it was like amazing.

I couldn't believe it, and that was probably a year or more into running. But- Yeah ... and little by little my body morphed and, and things like that, and I just, all my stats improved. Not my running stats, but my,

Ally Brettnacher: Everything

Tammy Mills: know ... my measures of health improved- Yeah ... which is what I wanted and felt like I could keep up [00:11:00] with my kids.

And, uh, now they can't run as far as I

Ally Brettnacher: I was gonna, I was gonna say. I

Tammy Mills: They come cheer me on,

Ally Brettnacher: an ultra-marathoner times two.

Tammy Mills: Times two- Yeah ... which is crazy. Yeah. This one was so... I highly recommend doing two. Oh. I don't know that I would do three, but this one was so much better than the last one.

Ally Brettnacher: that's good.

Tammy Mills: Yeah. 'Cause I had so much fear the first one, but yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. I feel like I could use a little redemption and not feeling like crap half of the race would be nice. Yeah. But it was... I mean, I knew it was gonna be hard.

Tammy Mills: But I-- You didn't expect the first

Ally Brettnacher: hard.

Tammy Mills: to be hard. Right. That makes you ner- for me, that would make me terribly nervous.

Right. Like oh my God, if I feel this bad the first half, I'll never

Ally Brettnacher: didn't think I'd... Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But after finishing, I was like, "You know, I would, I would do that again." It was a very fun race.

Tammy Mills: Oh, it's the best. Yeah. If you're gonna try an ultra- Yeah ... it's the one to do.

I listen to your podcast, of course, and I've-- every time you mention the Full Mo, I would yell at you, " Goddammit,

Ally Brettnacher: Just start

Tammy Mills: up already." Finally. "It's the easiest one. You run on the Monon all the time. Come on." Yes. "It's a no-brainer. You don't know how many times I've told you that." I'm like, "Just sign [00:12:00] up already."

Ally Brettnacher: finally heard you.

Tammy Mills: Excellent. The aid stations are amazing, and it's just fun, and it's a familiar territory and all that kind of stuff.

Ally Brettnacher: I think that's why I liked it the mo- Yeah ... it felt really a community effort, and it was really cool.

Tammy Mills: is.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. Yeah. So what did your wife Nancy think when you started running?

Did she try it, too? Was

Tammy Mills: a bit of a runner herself Okay And at different times she had run before me a little bit too. Okay. She's not as obsessed, maybe in general, about things as I am. I tend to get obsessed about stuff. Yeah. But, she had done some running and stuff too, but, I don't know h- like I...

When I finished this recent ultra, I had a day or two where I didn't ponder, but then I, without thinking, I said, "Hey, you know, there's this thing called the Hustle in the Heartland, and it seems like a really small race, and it's like a one-mile loop. It would be a great way to challenge myself to see if I could run 35 miles instead of 31."

Yeah. And I- she just looked at me like, "Oh, my God." Like, yeah. Yeah. "I g- you're right. I should ponder that." But I still emailed Christy about

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, you're like, "How about that?" I, that is,

Tammy Mills: It seemed like a non-threatening challen- way to- Right ... try to [00:13:00] see if I could run a little farther. I seem to always wanna run a little farther.

I don't know what that's about. I'm sure I'll discover that in therapy,

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, right. You're like, "Why do I wanna put myself through all this pain?" It's like- Yeah ... well, because it's therapeutic in a lot of ways. It's

Tammy Mills: when I feel in my body, honestly. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: When you said that about feeling in your body, I really related to that.

'Cause sometimes I do feel like I'm living outside of myself,

Tammy Mills: think for my first 40 years or so, I didn't know I lived outside my body- Yeah ... um, and then Fitties Movement really helped me to do that- Yeah ... and to feel like that.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. Did you grow up here in Central Indiana? I

Tammy Mills: Okay. I grew up in Selma, Indiana.

Ally Brettnacher: don't know where that... Was that sort of the S, Selma? Yeah, Selma. S-

Tammy Mills: It's near Muncie. Yeah, okay. East of Muncie a little bit. Okay. Out in the middle of nowhere. Went to Wapahani High School. Shout out Wapahani

Ally Brettnacher: Wapahani.

Tammy Mills: Wapahani High

Ally Brettnacher: is a name. That

Tammy Mills: quite the name, yeah.

So it was a teeny, tiny little place. that's where I went to high school and everything, so.

Ally Brettnacher: went to high school and everything. Yeah. And did you have siblings?

Tammy Mills: I have a brother. Okay. A, a younger brother.

Ally Brettnacher: [00:14:00] brother. So you're the oldest, I'm the oldest too.

Tammy Mills: the only way to be.

Ally Brettnacher: way to be. Ma- makes sense, yeah. It's the best and, but you're the guinea pig.

I had some, I have some gripes with being the oldest, but not too many. Mostly it's pretty nice.

Tammy Mills: I, I think it's the best- Yeah ... by far. Yeah. My wife's the youngest of 11. Stop. So we are the opposites in that sense. 11?

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

Tammy Mills: Oh, yeah, she's... No, 10. I lied. Oh, there's so many, I-

Ally Brettnacher: after her. Yeah. Well, I would lose track- I would lose count

as well. Probably, right, yeah. Yeah. Geez, how many nieces and nephews do you have? Like a m- a million.

Tammy Mills: And great ones now and all, 'cause she's the youngest and, her- Oh my

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, right

Tammy Mills: nieces and ne- like her age, kind of that

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, right. Yes. Wow, that's... That is cool.

Tammy Mills: I, it's kind

Ally Brettnacher: It's kind of fun being- Yeah ... that way. Yeah. Are they local here? Do you see

Tammy Mills: see a lot of them? Some of them are. And it's nice, some of them are a little spread out, 'cause we go to Florida- That's nice ... to visit Uncle Bill and Uncle Barrett. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: That's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. So, back to the mini, 'cause I love that you've been doing it for- A long time

so long. Yeah. How many have you done?

Tammy Mills: not sure exactly, 'cause I do not obsess over my spreadsheet the way you do. Yeah. I don't have a spreadsheet.

TAMMY MILLS INTERVIEW: [00:15:00] Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. Um- Not everybody's as crazy ... I

Tammy Mills: mean, I've certainly do- I've probably done 10 of them. Okay.

Yeah. It's one of my all-time faves.

Ally Brettnacher: Did you do it this year?

Tammy Mills: I did. Okay. Yeah. it's just a great race, and the, the way the city turns out and all that kind of stuff.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. And then, so was it only the mini that you did before you turned 50, and then your first half-marathon was

Tammy Mills: did the Mini probably a couple times before I turned 50. Okay. Yeah. And then

Ally Brettnacher: what made you wanna run your first marathon?

Tammy Mills: Uh, my bestie.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, that'll do it. Somebody roped you into it.

Tammy Mills: did it the year before I did. Like, Miss Pion, she and I taught together. I taught elementary school for, uh, like 22 years, but, I didn't have a classroom.

I worked with kids who struggled with doing school, we call it. That's what I call it. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I understood them better. But anyway, she's my bestie, and she was a runner. And we actually coached the little running team at our elementary school, and, uh, She said, "Of course you can do it."

So I believed her. That was insane. She's crazy. And she had done it the year before, and I'd watched her do it. Like, "I'm, I'm gonna do it." So I put my [00:16:00] thing in there to run the Monumental And I had no clue. I did everything wrong. Like, I bought new shoes the day before and wore them on the race. Stop. I did.

Okay. But they were cute.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

Tammy Mills: Darn it, they looked good. I looked good for 20... No, I didn't look good for 26.2 miles. I looked good for the start of the race. That was about it. And I did the best training I could. Like, you know how that goes. the kids were all in school and that sort of thing at that time.

so I did the best I could, and I got through it, but I just remember the... It was probably a couple months before I ran again- Mm ... just 'cause it, it it, I have never felt such pain after anything. I remember Nancy came to pick me up and I'm like, "Oh my God, could you have parked farther away?" And she was probably, like, two blocks away.

But I'm

Ally Brettnacher: Oh my gosh.

Tammy Mills: "But sh- can you walk?" I go, " No, I can't. But you see me, I cannot walk." Yeah. Like, are you crazy? I was dy- like, so that nearly took my love of running. Yeah. Yeah. But I, ultimately, I did kind of recover. But, and I said I would never run a marathon again. That was just the most ridiculous thing.

Mm-hmm. And I didn't for a long time.

Ally Brettnacher: And that was 2016? Yes. Your first marathon?

Uh,

Tammy Mills: And the Monumental [00:17:00] Marathon, for me, it was very lonely in the back half. I th- I assume- Yeah ... I've never run it again, and I hear it's picked up, but- Yeah ... it was, like, nobody around back there, and it was just like, ' cause I'm not very fast.

I'm like, "Oh my God." Yeah. But

Ally Brettnacher: I mean, it can, it definitely...

And Carmel gets that way, too, being a smaller race. I've

Tammy Mills: the Carmel Half. Okay. But I have never done the full. But again, when I think about my medals, when I look at that 2016 one, it's start before you're ready. I was not ready.

Yeah. But I toed the line, and I did it, and I survived, and I learned so much. So start before you're ready. Yeah. And I learned I never wanna be that unready again.

Ally Brettnacher: Did you run at all with your bestie? Did you start together or- Oh, heck no ... run

Tammy Mills: no. Oh. She's like the speed of light.

Ally Brettnacher: Never.

Tammy Mills: No, she can actually finish a race, take a shower, come back and cheer me on, you know?

We're, we're at different spectrums on

Ally Brettnacher: I have...

I mean, I get

Tammy Mills: Although she had a baby recently, and I'm thinking maybe we should go run now.

Ally Brettnacher: Right. You're like, "Let's see who can win now." And see if [00:18:00] she's recovered. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: "Let's go out for a little run

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

Tammy Mills: Ah, she'd probably still beat me.

She's very competitive.

Ally Brettnacher: Okay. Yeah. So what other races have you done?

Tammy Mills: probably all of them around here. Okay. As far as that go. Like, a lot of 5Ks and that sort of thing. Mm-hmm. I always do the Rainbow Run. Happy Pride Month.

Ally Brettnacher: oh yeah, it's Pride Month. It's Pride Month. I love

Tammy Mills: Month. I know, and it's Pride

Ally Brettnacher: I didn't even... We didn't even plan that. I

Tammy Mills: know. That's

Ally Brettnacher: perfect.

Yes.

Tammy Mills: I always do, I, as much as I can, do the Pride Run. I've done Geist, I ta- I taught Lawrence Township Harrison Hill, and we'd take our little running club. And for a long time they had us go run the Geist 5K, and that was always great to run it with my little kids and, , that was so much fun doing that with them. Now they don't do Geist anymore. They do a, Connor Prairie. Okay. that is a 5K, and they do that. so I've done that one, that sort of thing.

I always run the Sickle Cell one. I always do that. Okay. I don't know why. I don't think, I did not do that this year, uh, probably 'cause I was recovering from the

Ally Brettnacher: From an ultramarathon

Tammy Mills: But whatever I c- find around, I do. 'Cause I'm- Especially if I'm training for a longer race, I'll do as many halfs as I can, sort of that- Yes

'cause I don't like to do long runs out there by

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, I feel the [00:19:00] same. I

Tammy Mills: I haven't conquered my brain on that yet.

Ally Brettnacher: my fear of that yet. It's hard. I know I have to have, I usually will listen to an audiobook- I do too

or a pod- or a podcast just on a longer run just to drown out my thoughts mostly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. My

Tammy Mills: head says, uh, "You feel terrible." Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, you can't- And I don't really feel terrible

Tammy Mills: I- And if I was at a race, I'd probably keep moving, but- Yeah ... something about being there by yourself just

Ally Brettnacher: It's hard. And it is good mental training to go without, and so I'll do that on shorter runs- Mm-hmm

to try to, you know, get s- mentally stronger. But being by yourself running really long is-

Tammy Mills: It's, it, for me, it's really- Yeah. I know some people

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, right. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: an extrovert off the charts, so I draw energy from people and sounds and things, and I just know that about myself and- Yeah

I don't really like nature that much and stuff,

Ally Brettnacher: is not as much nature

Tammy Mills: is as much nature as

Ally Brettnacher: you think. Right, so you're not gonna go trail runner on us?

Tammy Mills: Oh, we could talk about that race- Oh ... if you want. I tried. Oh my God. That is my only in my history DNFing. That's right. But I

Ally Brettnacher: great T-shirt- What was that one called? What

Tammy Mills: What run was that?

Um, the Cereal Killer run.

Ally Brettnacher: that's right.

Tammy Mills: And I did it because, well, I've r- [00:20:00] moved last year up to Michigan City area, and there's an actual lady serial killer that lived in that area many years ago. I read about it. Her name was Belle. I read about her and researched her, but anyway, so there's some play on that,

Ally Brettnacher: Wait, well, I'm interested in that. I

Tammy Mills: I couldn't believe it 'cause I'm a big documentary

Ally Brettnacher: love, ugh, I, any kind of documentary really- I think so ... but I love true crime a lot too.

Tammy Mills: So anyways, that had all my intrigue, and once again, my office administrator's like, "Oh, let's sign up to do this." So I signed up, and she never signed up.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh.

Tammy Mills: And so here we are. I think it was in January or February, and I've never run a trail run in my life.

Ally Brettnacher: how, what was the distance on that 15K, is that what you

Tammy Mills: think it's what it was. I don't know. I did

Ally Brettnacher: further than

Tammy Mills: was three. I knew we had to do three laps. so I show up at this thing, and I remember the day before I had called Christi.

I said, "Should I wear, like, trail shoes?" 'Cause actually, being a runner personally, I do own a pair. Okay, yeah. I've never had them on a trail or anything. But they were a lovely color, you know. I really enjoyed them, and I've worn them at Halloween before and things like that, but I've never

Ally Brettnacher: That's funny

Tammy Mills: But I just did it as, like, sometimes you gotta do something different, and I thought, "Well, I'm gonna try [00:21:00] this," 'cause I love the shirt, loved Cereal Killer, and they had bowls of cereal

Ally Brettnacher: it was spelled like cereal- Exactly ... so I didn't even realize, I don't know why I didn't know it was the Cereal Killer.

Well, yeah- I

Tammy Mills: assumed- Well, bec- I didn't know it either, 'cause, but It's a play on both those things. Yeah. And there's no reason you should know it or any- Yeah ... I just love the shirt, and then I thought my office administrator was gonna do it, too. And, but anyway, so I show up there.

She did show up to cheer for me.

Ally Brettnacher: Well, that's, well, that's the least she could do. She was consoling me. I'm just kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Consoling.

Tammy Mills: at the end. and it had snowed a lot.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, no.

Tammy Mills: And they just said, they go... And it was a great, well-run race, so I highly re- if you're a trail person, this group does great races, I'm sure, but I had never done this.

This was like a trail, like up hills and mountains. and there was like a foot of snow. It was like running in sand. Have you ever run in sand? Maybe. It's the

Ally Brettnacher: I've, no, not like for a long-

Tammy Mills: Oh, my gosh ... stretch, I mean. It's, sand is, I hate running in sand. Yeah. Even though I live up at the lake, I don't run in the sand.

But that's what it was like, and it was like this horrible snow, and I was sliding, and these people were just running. it's the only race where I ever felt like I'm fighting for my life here.

Ally Brettnacher: Do people have poles, like the trekking poles?

Tammy Mills: Uh, they probably did. Yeah. I don't know. I didn't notice that, but yeah, [00:22:00] you're probably right. I should've had poles. Oh,

Ally Brettnacher: I was just thinking that's how I

Tammy Mills: there was trees acr- I had to climb over trees and stuff. This a- this roadrunner was not ready. Yeah. And I might have done better if there hadn't been snow c- so I could actually seen the ground and- Well, yeah

and not slid. That's

Ally Brettnacher: That's terrifying kinda. Or like step on a big branch or ro- you don't know what's

Tammy Mills: Exactly. And at the time, I was actually training for the Shamrock Marathon. Oh, that's right, right. I thought,

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, that's right. Okay ... if

Tammy Mills: I break something here and don't get to go run by Virginia Beach and see the ocean, I am gonna be so ticked off." Luckily, I did not break anything. so when I finished the first lap, which may have been, like, it was probably like a 5K. Yeah. I told them, I go, "O- one lap or cr- give me my T-shirt. I'm out of here." Yeah. So it was a little bit mental in the fact that I have never not crossed a finish line- Yeah

no matter what. But I was like, "I know this would be insane to try to do two more laps of this," 'cause I don't even know where we're going, and like I'm, they took off. And I'm like, " I need to see somebody." Yeah. Like, ' And they are totally a great run race, and they, everybody else did fine.

Yeah. It was just my first attempt at it.

Ally Brettnacher: was not, yeah.

Tammy Mills: had [00:23:00] no clue, no clue at all. So that was quite a fun race, let me tell you. Wow.

Ally Brettnacher: I, the only trail race I've... Well, I think I did one at Eagle Creek a really long time ago. but I... Like the Holiday Park does a trail run that I will say is very approachable.

Okay. It's on a real trail.

Tammy Mills: Is it not during snow time? It's

Ally Brettnacher: not during snow time. It's like March, like early March. It's- Like a trail

Tammy Mills: you can actually

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, and it's five miles only. Okay. You could do, I think there's a three mile and a five mile even, and then they have a kids version. Oh. It's, it's a really nice, for me, it was a nice like, "Okay, let's dabble a little bit."

It's not very far. I should've done something

Tammy Mills: that between never done one and going up to do this one. But I mean,

Ally Brettnacher: I don't know. You, you picture, you know, you're in Ind- I was- It was-

Tammy Mills: I'm gonna be honest,

Ally Brettnacher: in Indiana, you said?

Tammy Mills: You said- Yeah, it was up in Mich- it was up there by

Ally Brettnacher: by Michigan City. By Michigan City.

So it was- So yeah, I mean, you didn't probably know what to expect and yeah.

Tammy Mills: But the T-shirt was fabulous,

Ally Brettnacher: You still have it? Of course. Okay. Kinda wanna see a picture of it if you have it. I have a picture. But how about the... Well, did you, you probably didn't even get a medal then if you didn't finish. Oh, no.

That's a bummer. That is kinda sad. Yeah. 'Cause I bet it was cute.

Tammy Mills: the volunteer that was in there was, she ca- I don't [00:24:00] know ex- but it wa- I just remember it, 'cause me and the off- ops administrator, um, Emma were just sitting there chatting away and, and I was a little depressed.

And she kept going, " Now, did you let them know you DNF'd?" I go, "Yes, I let them know." " They'll be looking for you if you didn't let them know." I go, " I let them know." Yeah. I do not know, it felt like I had to tell her that, like, 15 times, and every time was like a dagger in my heart.

Ally Brettnacher: you like me, like just to put that on the shirt?"

Tammy Mills: Oh, yeah. Like, oh, I'm out of here lady. 'Cause yes, I told them. Could we say it a little louder so we all know I'm a loser? but that, it was fun. You don't know till you try stuff. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: And then how many marathons have you run?

Tammy Mills: I have run five. Five. Can you freaking believe that?

Ally Brettnacher: cool. I can believe it.

Tammy Mills: I can't.

Ally Brettnacher: can believe it.

Tammy Mills: can't. Um, I was never gonna run another one, but then, I've become quite the Pelotoner.

Oh,

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, yes,

Tammy Mills: Quite by accident, but love

Ally Brettnacher: me how you found Peloton

Tammy Mills: well, my boss, my principal. Okay. Um, 'cause I've, I've always pastored a Unitarian church and I taught school, so I always had two jobs. So when I say boss, I wanna be clear there. But my principal was a big Pelotoner, and she would talk about how she just loved it.

She transformed her life. [00:25:00] She loves it. Yeah. So I kept listening and listening, and I thought, "Well, my wife really likes biking." I thought, "Ooh, I could get her a Peloton." Ooh. "She would love that probably." But then, you know, getting your spouse something, e- exercise equipment

Ally Brettnacher: spouse something, e- exercise equipment. Here's a vacuum. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: exactly.

But I took a risk and got it, and she likes it okay, but I ended up being the one that fell in love with it- Yeah ... 'cause it's community. She's a big introvert. Yeah. But for me, it's like, "Oh, there's people up right now. Let's go." Yeah. You know? Yeah. So I... But I don't bike as much anymore, but that's how I got introduced on the bike.

Yeah. And then the app is amazing. Mm-hmm. And then, I love that there are so many different coaches or instructors.

Ally Brettnacher: There's so many now too, especially. And

Tammy Mills: persons. Yeah. And sometimes that, and it's nice to, it changes up a little bit. Like, I don't run with Matt Wilpers. Matt, if you're out there, you make me crazy.

but if I wanna be, work out my anger, I get on there 'cause I'll let him have it the whole time. Yeah. I'm like, "Rar, rar, rar, rar." Yeah. "White man, what do you know? Blah, blah, blah."

Ally Brettnacher: Um, so, so

Tammy Mills: thank you, Matt, for that. It helps me express my anger a lot of times. But I love that you can do that, like- Yes ... pick whoever, and I kinda, I [00:26:00] really, Robin Arzon was- Yeah

the one that really spoke to my heart always. Like, she's one that, like, I swear she sees my face. she'll look at me, " Come on, baby, let's go." I'm like, " Oh my God, she knows I stopped. How did she know that?" Like, " Don't wanna cheat on yourself." I'm like, "Oh." Yes. You know, it's like she gets me.

And,

Ally Brettnacher: And,

Tammy Mills: uh, little by little, got connected with all that kind, wolf pack and that stuff. Wolf pack. But then, uh, through this amo- amazing turn of events, became a part of her Swagger Society. Mm. Which is kind of her, like, I don't know what you'd call, but anyway. But it was the most amazing experience, getting kind of an insider look with her at some things and that sort of thing, and she continues to be a part of that community and reach out to us, and, it feels like a real connection.

Yeah. And she's just really inspired 'cause there's things she says that-

Ally Brettnacher: I, I

Tammy Mills: forg- it was a, a certain run I was doing with her like pr- probably like six years ago, and I knew I was, things were going pretty good in the running department, but it wasn't all integrating somehow. I just, you know how you feel like, "Okay, I got...

But, hmm, you know, something isn't authentic

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

Tammy Mills: she really encouraged people, "Do therapy. Work with it. Use your brain." Like, I'm like, you know how she is. "Move, move. What you waiting for?" You know, like, "Oh, [00:27:00] well." But I'm like, "Oh, it's okay to do therapy and do running? You can do both?" and so I'm like, "Okay."

It was like sometimes you need people to point things out and give you permission. Yeah. And, so I started that along in this journey, and been doing that ever since too, and that's been... I'm getting places in therapy I never thought I could get because I'm running, I think, because there's something about it releases something.

I believe a lot that your body holds a lot of stuff. Oh, yeah. And, um, the running kind of was releasing that stuff, and so I'm able to deal with a lot more stuff that, I'm an old person, there's a lot of stuff probably, so I'm literally a gold mine for the therapist. But, uh, you know, the more miles I run, the more things just come unleashed.

Yeah. So you gotta deal, you gotta deal. But I wanna deal, ' Yeah. But the, she's just really been very instrumental in that. And I'd always hear her talk about running New York City Marathon. Mm. Which I'm like, I would kinda say like i- if there was any marathon I'd do, it'd be New York City, but you can't get into New York City.

But some of my friends in Swire Society were like, "Yes, you can. We can run with a charity." And I didn't really know much about charity running. " Yeah, well, let's, let's do it." And, um, so one of my friends was like, [00:28:00] "Yeah," and, and I'm like, so they kept talking about it. I'm like, "Oh, I don't think I c- I ran one once and thought I was gonna be dead."

You know, I near, I felt like I nearly died.

Ally Brettnacher: It

Tammy Mills: I probably d- it was a near-death experience. Yeah.

TAMMY MILLS INTERVIEW: experience. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: New York was just the thought of me, I can get teary thinking about it. Like, this little Selma girl running in New York City? You gotta be f- kidding me, 'cause I don't belong there I was always told there are a lot of things I can't do.

Yeah. And so I just couldn't believe that I could maybe do that, and in my city, 'cause I always knew New York would be my city. I mean, I'm an extrovert. Come on. Yeah. And it is my city. I love it there. and my wife actually likes it a little bit, too, so we can go in doses. but anyway, I ended up, um, signing up to do New York City I wouldn't have done it with just any charity. I mean, it's okay to pick what... I don't care how people do it. Yeah. But for me, I needed something that I clicked with, and through an amazing turn of events, I, was able to get hooked up with, 261 Fearless. Which is Kathrine Switzer's, She was the first woman to officially run the Boston Marathon, and just, she's just a real spitfire, still runs.

[00:29:00] And when I, in my 50s, early 50s, I found her book and had just... Well, I'd always admired her even before I was a runner, but then reading her book and things like that, I just, she was the best, and to think that I could run on her team was just mind-blowing. like I said, I get a little teary thinking about it.

I mean, just, I was running with the woman who ran the first Boston Marathon. Yeah. I, I just couldn't believe it. Wow. So to get to train with her, and her, her charity had helped me in that sense, like they really em- believe in empowering women through movement, and that's what I had found, power through movement.

So it was very important. So I raised money for that charity and signed up to run the freaking New York City Marathon. Like, I thought it was cra- it was crazy, and thank goodness I found Christy then, ' cause like I said, I had, uh, signed myself up for, like, 50... Well, it wasn't really. I, it was probably three, but I was trying to follow all three of those training things.

That was ridiculous. So having a coach to calm me down and say to trust the training- Yeah ... was really important. I didn't know it

was important,

Ally Brettnacher: helpful. Yes. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: "Are you serious? We did, are you sure we ran far enough?" Like, I don't always say those things to [00:30:00] her- Yeah ... but I'm always

Ally Brettnacher: that. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: I don't doubt it as much now, but then I doubted everything- Oh ... in that sense, but so have, that helped a lot. And so I trained to get ready for that, and then it ended up just being a magical time. I invited my whole family. Aw. So the wife was there, and my three kids- Aw ... 'cause I wanted them there, and it was amazing.

Ally Brettnacher: What year was this?

Tammy Mills: this? Uh, 2024. 2024. Yep. I'm sorry. I get all... But it was. I mean, think- I still have my medal in my pocket. I don't leave home without it.

Ally Brettnacher: You don't leave home without your-

Tammy Mills: No. It looks terrible,

Ally Brettnacher: I wanna see it

Tammy Mills: Let's see here. But yeah, no, I keep it in a bag 'cause I realized in my training runs it was really getting sweaty.

Ally Brettnacher: sweaty. Tammy, this is so

Tammy Mills: watch it. Oh. Look at... It's in, it's in pretty bad shape, but- Mm-hmm ... yeah. Here, I think, um, I do

Ally Brettnacher: be- It's a very beautiful bag. No yeah, that's-

Tammy Mills: You need a special bag

Ally Brettnacher: I need a special bag ... I, I, so I ran- Special bag ... I ran in 2018.

Okay. And, I was so bummed because that was before I found Peloton. Oh. So I found Peloton in 2019, before the pandemic.

Oh, that's good Um, and so then [00:31:00] now I'm so jealous of all the people who've run New York and get to s- like see all the instructors, and like potentially run into an instructor, like while running the marathon.

My friend- It's just

Tammy Mills: that had helped me get in with, Catherine and 261 Fearless, go check 'em out and support them.

Shout out. They're amazing. Yeah. she's, big in the Wolfpack, and so we got to ride with Robin, and she gave me special shout-outs and stuff, and it was great. And, and then later, we actually got to hang out with her, and she pointed out the whole route to me and really was very... You know, it's g- I've got great pictures of us together.

We were wearing matching jackets, Robin and I. I was f- fashion twinning with Robin.

Ally Brettnacher: That's

Tammy Mills: What are the odds of that? Yeah. They're zero. But m- many of the, the instructors really, they're the real deal. Yeah. Nobody can tell me different.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. Marcelle,

Tammy Mills: I mean, my God, she's my hype girl. Yeah. I got to run with her at Shamrock a little bit, and I don't know, I love... Uh, Mariana, she went to Purdue.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Huh.

Tammy Mills: Yeah. She did the, uh, shakeout run when I did New York City.

Okay. And to get to meet her, and I'd done so many runs with her,

Ally Brettnacher: so cool ... these

Tammy Mills: people that are just, like, in your app, and then you see them- Yeah ... and realize they really are. [00:32:00] Like, I like Ash Pryor. I mean, I don't row or anything, but- Yeah ... they're just,

Ally Brettnacher: like, real people. Right.

Tammy Mills: And, uh-

Ally Brettnacher: uh- Yeah ... shout

Tammy Mills: shout out to all

Ally Brettnacher: people. All the Peloton people. I've had a couple, I think only women that I've met through Peloton have been on this podcast.

I'm trying to remember if there's any guys I've met through Peloton that I've had on this podcast. but Mandy, I'm gonna forget, I forget her last name, but she's been in Peloton forever. And she was the one who ran and helped Tunde finish- Oh my God ... the New York City Marathon one time. Tunde's one of my favorites.

And then Susie Chan on the treadmill I really love.

Tammy Mills: Whenever on a long run,

Ally Brettnacher: I like Susie Chan. Oh, she, her book is really, really

Tammy Mills: Her books got me through several long runs. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: It's, just, you're like, "How in the world?" Yeah. but yeah, I've, I got to go- Hannah Frankson

oh, I love Hannah. I

Tammy Mills: go to London. Let's go to London. Let's do it now.

Ally Brettnacher: go.

Tammy Mills: Let's go. Let's go. Get the tickets. Let's go.

Ally Brettnacher: Let's go. Ah. I, I, well, I went to the old studio in New York City. Oh,

Tammy Mills: did you? Okay. Mm-hmm.

Ally Brettnacher: I was early on kinda into it before it was so hard now. I feel like now to get in to go to a class at a [00:33:00] live studio would be like really hard.

Tammy Mills: Yeah, you, like, sign... You have to know, like, 90 days in

advance- Yeah, stuff

Ally Brettnacher: it's like crazy. Yeah, so anyway, I, I'm with you. I really have enjoyed the community. And so back to the Swagger Society community, is that like something that you pay to be a part of? You join and then it's like a digital kind of community- That's what it started out to be ...

Tammy Mills: started out to

Ally Brettnacher: call, like calls or s- Yeah, that's-

things like that?

Tammy Mills: Yeah, that's what it started

Ally Brettnacher: that's really cool. It's

Tammy Mills: kinda morphed since then, but we had our own app and that sort of thing where- Wow ... so we-

Ally Brettnacher: Wow, I

Tammy Mills: that. You know, it was people... It was the first time in my life I ever met people as obsessed about improving as I was.

Mm. I don't know. Like, it... They made it okay to say, "I'm gonna go for this, and they really believed in, the community there and still do. I really credit them. Ron was a guy, I'm sorry. he was running, like, 100 miles, at the time.

I'm like, "Oh my God. How do you do that?" So I kinda joked, and it became, you know, my fourth mile, 'cause three miles was as long as I really enjoyed running. Yeah. So one day I went out, 'cause he was doing 100-mile run, I knew that, and I ran a fourth mile. I said, "This is my Ron Jordan mile." You know, and I...

things like that. Like, the... I just found real community, and people [00:34:00] that were kinda like me in that sense. Yeah. And we've had gatherings. We still have quarterly

Ally Brettnacher: That's so cool

Tammy Mills: and things like that. So it was just- Yeah ... really cool to be a part of that. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: during COVID, I had never... I actually have only met one of these guys in person, but two other guys and I started a, community called Ride and Raise, and we would- Mm ... get on Zoom calls.

Okay.

Put the computer like facing the Peloton.

This sounded s- it was, felt really weird, but at- But- ... COVID you just did weird stuff- Just did what you could ... to get community. Yeah. And so we would, get on, we would plan which live ride we were gonna do, and then we would get on, and we would raise money for a charity every month. Mm. And we did that for at least a year.

It was so cool. Mm. I met and made a lot of friends through that as well. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it was just, it's really been fun to watch and see how the entire Peloton community has morphed. Now there's just so many subsets of community. there's somewhere for anyone.

Tammy Mills: Yeah. And on the... And the app has all those different group- Right ... like, you can really just

Ally Brettnacher: like you can really just really tailor- Well now you can finally like... Yeah, there's a lot more functionality now, too, to find other members

Tammy Mills: they [00:35:00] really mean it when they say, you know, you can adapt.

Like, they really- Yeah ... speak to no matter what your pace is or what movement you're doing. Right. They really support you. Yeah. And they are not just saying that. Yeah. They really mean it.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. You better believe there's sometimes where I'm like, "I'm not doing that." Matt Wilpers. I can't, I cannot put my resistance on 75 and sprint. Like, you nuts?

Tammy Mills: it's crazy. That

Ally Brettnacher: I o- I only- Yeah, that gets me ... I only ride with him... I don't really run with him either, 'cause I know it's gonna be really

Tammy Mills: so much. I'm like,

Ally Brettnacher: Smile on

Tammy Mills: "Ugh." He

Ally Brettnacher: so funny. I love that you don't like him. It's so great. Ugh, yeah. You gotta...

No

Tammy Mills: somebody just really work your rage up.

Ally Brettnacher: yeah. Peloton is wonderful.

It's great. I really hope

to get- yeah, there again

Tammy Mills: it was great to go to a class. That was the first time I'd been to a class. Or might, yeah, I think it was the first time I've been to...

Ally Brettnacher: a class. That's so cool. Or might... Yeah, I think it was

Tammy Mills: I've been- Yeah ... to a couple since then. But, Kirsten Ferguson, like- Yeah ... runner number three. She, oh my God, 'cause when I was training for that 2024, so was she. She ran it that

Ally Brettnacher: year. Oh, that's

Tammy Mills: So I felt like I was training it

Ally Brettnacher: I was doing it with her. with her. Yeah. And I remember

Tammy Mills: at some mile, I don't know what mile it was at the New York City Marathon of like maybe it was 14, 15, I turned a corner and there was her billboard, because she had [00:36:00] had hip surgery, and she, and so it was an advertisement for that.

I'm- Oh ... and all I could feel was, "Oh my God, I train with her," and then, "Oh my God, she had to see that as she ran." Yeah. So I later did a run and chatted with her, and I could just kind of feel like, oh, what that would feel like to see like that. Yes.

Ally Brettnacher: up there and- Yeah

Tammy Mills: yeah, it was great.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. I spectated the year after I ran, and so in 2019 I spectated 'cause some of my girlfriends- Oh, that's so cool ... had to defer, and so I was like, "Well, they came and cheered for me, so I'll go back and cheer for them," but what a magical race. And how was race day for you? It's kind of

Tammy Mills: to explain that to people. Like, you just have to experience it.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

Tammy Mills: I mean, I was glad, uh, Christy, having Christy kind of help because- Mm

I was supposed to run with my Peloton friend, but she had gotten injured, so she c-

Ally Brettnacher: so she couldn't- Dang, yeah ... she couldn't run

Tammy Mills: it. And, but anyway, the, it's... I joke it's a marathon to get to the marathon.

Ally Brettnacher: And to get out of there.

Tammy Mills: out of here ... here I am. I've never been on a subway or anything like

Ally Brettnacher: that. I was gonna ask- it was wild ... is it the first time you were in New York

Tammy Mills: Y- yes. Oh, no, I take that back. Okay. It was the second. I had actually in the spring met with Swagger Society out there, so- Right ... it was technically the second. But, I actually got on a sub, so I had to take a subway, and then I had to [00:37:00] get to this ferry thing, and I got on the ferry thing. And then I thought I'd be there, but you're not there.

Then you get on a bus, and then you're there. So I took three modes of

Ally Brettnacher: I didn't know you had to get on a bus after the

Tammy Mills: Yes, you get on a bus after the ferry. And it was b- it went great. Yeah. Shout out to them. I don't know how

Ally Brettnacher: they organize it It's wild how they get that many people

Tammy Mills: crazy.

Yeah. And I got to the start line and f- well, or got to the start- Area? Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Island, the start island, literally- I've never seen- ... like on Staten

Tammy Mills: port-a-toilets in all my life. Oh,

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, man. That, it was a wild place.

Tammy Mills: Now, I only have one regret at the New York City Marathon, and when I run it this year, I'm cha- I did not get one of those Dunkin' Donut hats.

Oh.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh.

Tammy Mills: day, I kick myself. Dunkin' Donuts, in the start area, gave out free hats, little. No. And I wear toboggans, like, all year. I love my hats. Yeah. Shout out to my toboggans. But I, so I really needed that. And while I was running the New York City Marathon, at some mile, somebody had thrown one on the ground.

But I'm so competitive. Even though I wasn't gonna get a good time, I didn't care.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

Tammy Mills: I was like, "Oh, I could bend over and pick it up." But like, oh, somebody'll run into me. I'm like

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. Well, it's so hard to stop

Tammy Mills: It's so hard to stop. Oh, man. It's gonna

Ally Brettnacher: That's funny

Tammy Mills: time, but- I

Ally Brettnacher: I [00:38:00] hope somebody, maybe somebody listening has one that they don't wear

Tammy Mills: man. Oh. Oh, they've got it in c- in case then or something 'cause it, it'd be a shrine hat. It's

Ally Brettnacher: something. Yeah. Okay. I don't know if I've seen a picture of one.

Oh, yeah. I'm sure I have

Tammy Mills: you probably

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, yeah. Okay. I'll have to-

Tammy Mills: and orange. Okay. They're just amazing. Wow. Maybe But that was my one thing, getting to the start correct, 'cause I knew about this.

I don't know how I'd, but I knew about it. So I got to f- and they were out of hat. I'm like, oh my God, I don't... I was, like, crushing people.

Ally Brettnacher: And you know some people don't even care.

Tammy Mills: You know they don't. Yeah. You know they don't. They d- I would literally wear hats like that for six

Ally Brettnacher: months Somebody has one you can have. Somebody. Oh,

Tammy Mills: shout out out there Out there

Ally Brettnacher: out there. Shout out. Out there. Find, the internet. You know the internet. I'm manifesting it right now. Just say that Swagger, hey, dear Swagger society- I just-

who has a

Tammy Mills: yeah, who's got a hat

Ally Brettnacher: there.

Yeah. Gosh, that don't... Ugh, so, okay, so your whole family was there. Yeah. Did they get to see you on the course?

Tammy Mills: They did, unbelievably. And actually, Robin and her husband Drew, Drew drew out a map f- kind of drew out a map for them and told them- Wow ... "

Ally Brettnacher: Get out here." That's

Tammy Mills: subway to here," 'cause we had no real clue. And so I will be forever grateful for him, and they managed to find me [00:39:00] three times.

Three? Three times.

Thank gosh. That's amazing. Amazing. The first

ti- well, first of all, like, I think New York City Marathon's the first time I never listened to anything on a run.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, you

Tammy Mills: it, and I mean this seriously. Well, you

Ally Brettnacher: know this, like- Yes

Tammy Mills: square here, but it's a 26.2-mile finish line. People are cheering the whole time.

Yeah. This city is amazing, and by cheering, I mean, like- Screaming ... screaming and hordes of people. Yeah. Like, not just one or two out there. They're all out there. And thing about for me, uh, the race probably starts at 8:00, okay? So people are out there early cheering people on- Yeah ... for the whole 26.2 miles.

Yeah. I didn't even start the race till almost noon. That's how I was. Which meant I was finishing at, like, 5:00 or 6:00 in the evening- Yeah ... like, in dark. Yes. And there were... 'Cause time had changed. That's another story. Right. My only one goal was I wanted to finish with the sun still up, and what does the Earth do?

That time change thing happened. I'm like, "Oh!" Oh. And I hit, uh, the, the park there, Central Park, and the sun's go- I was like, "No way I'm gonna finish in the dark." That was my only goal. Oh, but I was able to, "Okay, it was a time change thing.

Ally Brettnacher: I- Right. Yeah ... I'm, I- Yeah. You're, no way you're gonna improve your time by an [00:40:00] hour, so there we go.

Tammy Mills: But, there was just so much cheering. I didn't have to listen to anything. Yeah. It was just amazing. And they found me, actually, the first time I found them, it was around the, I Williamsburg area. Okay. So it is a little quieter there, and they found me, and I was feeling fantastic. I'm like, "Yeah."

I barely wanted to stop because I was like, "Ugh." Yeah. But, um, I was feeling really good. But anyway, it was just, it was just magical to see them there. Yeah. And to think that I could bring them there. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Ally Brettnacher: The small town girl in the big city And

for me,

Tammy Mills: I grew up always wanting a family, but knowing as a young gay woman, that was not in the cards for me, and for lots of reasons that, well, first of all, I was going to hell.

But second of all- ... But- Poor Ally ... you know, but it just, that wouldn't be in the cards for me. And to think of, oh my gosh, I'm here in New York City running a freaking marathon, and I got a wife and three kids, Just what I always dreamed of. It's

Ally Brettnacher: of. That's so magical. Which

Tammy Mills: is... So I, I like to share that in the sense that, it's okay.

You will get there, you know, if that's what you want. Yeah. my motto when I trained for the New York City m- I have several that I... But this one was just for me. It was like, "You don't know what you can't do." The world has always told me, " You [00:41:00] can't be this 'cause you're a woman.

You can't be this 'cause you're gay. You can't be this 'cause this. You can't, you can't, you can't." Yeah. And I finally realized, no, that's the world telling me. I wanna find out what I can do. I don't know what I can't do. So that was my motto there. And then seeing them, like, they're right about I can do about anything I wanna do.

You know, the, the choice is mine. And that was really good to reclaim that, because it was just really important, that. So to see them there. And they had surprised me. They had a big, one of those big heads.

Ally Brettnacher: I was really hoping they had some

kind of

Tammy Mills: had some kind of thing. They had a big head.

Ally Brettnacher: head. Those are

Tammy Mills: fun. And so my kids had done that.

my girls are older. they're in their 20s now, but they had managed to get it mailed to the hotel. That's great. And it, so it was a complete

Ally Brettnacher: That's-

and it was a big help ... unbelievable. Well, and it probably helped you spot them too. It did. 'Cause to your point, I mean, there's- Yeah ... over a million people out there spectating. Exactly. So to find somebody is- Yeah,

Tammy Mills: I could- Yeah. And for us to not know the city, like it was just- Right ... to me, I'll, uh, forever grateful that they found me and that Drew helped them do that, 'cause it was just amazing. 'Cause they'd had to take the subway and all, and they liked doing all that.

Yeah, but

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, but it's-

Tammy Mills: You're on a time crunch. You gotta find your person, you

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, you're beating the clock. You're trying to... Yeah, it's... That

Tammy Mills: I think I saw them [00:42:00] about, again, at mile, oh, it was probably like the 18th or some- Okay ... 18 mile, 18, around there. And again, feeling pretty good to see them.

But then it was at mile, they also found me, and actually, I think it was Drew that told them to be there, at mile 21, 22 or something, like just before you get into Central Park. Mm-hmm. And I was done then. That's one race where I did hit a wall. Like, I'm done.

Like, this is enough." Yeah. And I saw them, so I went over there. I go, "Let's go get tacos." And they're like, "What?" I, "Yeah, I'm done. Let's go get tacos. Where's the best- Yeah. I love tacos. Where's the best taco?" And they're like, "No." And I still remember feeling my, middle daugh- or well, she likes to be called the baby girl.

Mm-hmm. She's just not the middle child, she's the baby girl. Baby

Ally Brettnacher: Baby girl.

Tammy Mills: her little hand on my back going, "You got this," and pushing me back out. They all pushed me back out there, and thankfully they did. And yes, they had a taco at, when I

Ally Brettnacher: there. Good. That was my- And she- That was literally gonna be my next question.

I was like, "They better have had a

Tammy Mills: met me with a... They'd been to somewhere and found a great

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, that's so perfect. Yeah,

Tammy Mills: was perfect. So cool. It was really picture perfect in every way,

Ally Brettnacher: And now you're gonna do it again.

Tammy Mills: do it again. It's crazy.

Ally Brettnacher: So cool

Tammy Mills: really believe [00:43:00] there's something about that race, and the fact I still carry that medal, that- I don't know. It was that moment you need sometimes- Yeah ... to go, "Yeah." Yeah. "F 'em. I can do whatever." Yeah. And that's what that felt like, and I've changed a lot in my life since then.

it just really empowered for many different things, so yeah. Yeah. And since then, I would've never guessed I'd run another marathon, but I did.

Ally Brettnacher: Ran an ultra-marathon.

Tammy Mills: was, 'cause I signed up to run that Full Mo. Is that what I did? Surely not. I did. Is that... Well, I'm trying to think of the... Okay.

Ally Brettnacher: year, yeah, 2025. Right. So the year after you did New York- Right ... was the year you did the Full Mo for the first time.

Tammy Mills: what it did to me? It, running New York City'll make you think you can be an ultra-marathoner.

And

Ally Brettnacher: you can.

Tammy Mills: Yeah. And I, and because I don't like to do long runs, I signed up to do, the Kentucky Derby Marathon. Okay. 'Cause it was in April. I think it was in April. Yeah. I thought, "Well, that'll be my long run for the-" Mm-hmm. 'Cause I don't like to do them. So I did the Kentucky Marathon, the Kentucky Derby Marathon, which was a lot of fun.

and you get to run, like, like Churchill Downs and all

Ally Brettnacher: that crazy stuff. Yeah, my most recent guest- I had no idea ... Whitney, did that instead of Carmel,

Tammy Mills: But I was laughing when I heard her talk about the park. She is no joke. [00:44:00] Yeah. You do, like, ab- about halfway into it, I knew it was gonna be hilly, and Christy and I talked about walking up the hills and run down like that, but it was, like, hilly, like hilly.

Like-

Ally Brettnacher: "Where are these hills coming

Tammy Mills: It was, like, real

Ally Brettnacher: for sure. Interesting.

I didn't know Central Park was hilly, by the way.

I mean, you- Before... If somebody told me before, I'm so glad. It is ... it was, like, right before. I didn't know. I just trained for the bridges, of course. Exactly.

Yeah,

Tammy Mills: that first mile- Yeah ... of New York City is straight up.

Ally Brettnacher: York City is too hilly. Yeah, right.

Tammy Mills: But yeah, the last miles are in that

Ally Brettnacher: park- Woof, yeah. it is hilly. It is hard.

Tammy Mills: So if, I highly recommend the Kentucky Derby Marathon. Only two things: be ready for the park, cause, and it comes at that weird time, like at a halfway, a little more than halfway of the marathon.

Yeah. So it's like, whoa, that's a lot. And the other thing about Kentucky Derby, and I don't like races that do this, it's just personal preference, but you had to, like, the finish line was to your right, but you had to keep running forward.

Ally Brettnacher: Right

for, like,

Tammy Mills: three more miles and turn around and come

Ally Brettnacher: and come back- Yeah ...

Tammy Mills: to speak.

Ally Brettnacher: And

Tammy Mills: I'm like- Yeah ... "Oh, that's..." For some reason for me, right, that was kind of my wall there. I'm like, "You're kidding me. I could be like, uh-

Ally Brettnacher: a lot of pe- I mean, that's, that mental [00:45:00] stuff- Yeah ... that stage of the game is just mean.

Tammy Mills: So I don't like- Yeah ... doing that. Yeah. But yeah, so I did Kentucky Derby, then in May I ran my first ultra,

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Tammy Mills: But yeah, so I did Kentucky Derby, then in May I ran my first ultra, the Full Mo.

Oh my God, I was so nervous and scared. And it was, it was very good for me. I ended up injured essentially. my foot did this terrible cramping thing I'd never experienced before at about mile 22. And so for the

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, no ... for the

Tammy Mills: I knew I was gonna finish. Yeah. If I had to crawl across the finish line, I would.

but thankfully my friend Linda was there. She was on a bike. She's in the Fishers

Ally Brettnacher: Run Club.

Tammy Mills: And she sherpa'd me, and she had Biofreeze. We went through a lot of that, and she's a physical therapist. So- Okay ... she was working on my foot for me. But I got through it, and I, at the time I wouldn't have said I'd ever run it again.

A- and my attitude su- It was m- it was more just I felt defeated, 'cause I had never been injured or had like something like... My brain might have caused me to stop running at different times, but never like this feels like my actual

Ally Brettnacher: Body is gonna...

Yeah, [00:47:00] yeah

Tammy Mills: my foot, I've never felt like

Ally Brettnacher: that Yeah ... running before.

Tammy Mills: But anyway, I ended up getting through, and as a result, Linda sent me to a certain podiatrist and, uh, and he discovered something that might be my issue, and I forget what it's called. But the bottom line is we treated it and, um, I haven't had any problems since. I continue. I have to wear a boot once a week.

I wear this, uh, immobilizer

Ally Brettnacher: thing. Oh.

Tammy Mills: And, uh, it stretches my calves or he explained it all

Ally Brettnacher: to me. Okay.

Tammy Mills: medical stuff. But anyway-

Ally Brettnacher: like, "Okay"

Tammy Mills: I, I haven't had, had it since. So for the first three months I had to gradually crank it up to give a little more stretch. Mm-hmm. So I had to wear, I call this boot Olga.

Uh, she's a little bit of a torture mistress, if you know what I

Ally Brettnacher: mean.

I, I have a friend named Olga who might listen to this. Oh. I hope she does.

Tammy Mills: I don't, I'm not saying at all Olga's, but for me- Olga ... I picture somebody a little bit- Yes ... domineering in a lovely way. So for the first three months I had Olga, I had to wear it, one hour on each leg 'cause I was too cheap to buy two of them.

Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, yeah.

Tammy Mills: So for two hours every night I had to sit there. But then once your three months were over, you only have to wear it once

Ally Brettnacher: Interesting. Okay. So. That'd be a [00:48:00] good way for me to stretch because I hate stretching, so to have, something just crank it on, do it for you might be- Yeah

the way to go. I don't

Tammy Mills: to sit there.

Ally Brettnacher: there. Yeah. Well.

Tammy Mills: a lot, you know. But anyway, so the Full Mo pointed me to that and then, um, then I, at that point I decided, I moved up to Michigan City for my job. Yeah. I had trained to be a United Methodist minister, and at the time they didn't accept gay people.

I knew I was gay but I was raised United Methodist and I love John Wesley, have a kid named Wesley, which came much later. so it just felt natural 'cause for me, United Methodism is really about, they look at faith through a l- four things. You know, through y- your own personal experience, through what you read.

uh, it just, it's, I, it was my way of understanding the world. So it was natural to go into the United Methodist Church, and I did go into the Uni- I went to seminary and all that kind of stuff, and was ordained in the United Methodist Church, all the while knowing I was gay. But I had kind of this experience with me and God.

Me and God are close. Go- I believe God's love, infinite love and all that kind of stuff. I'm not real, that sort of thing. we had a very deep [00:49:00] conversation in a sense, and all I could feel is, like, like God was like, "You're chill. It's all right with me." And so I never questioned whether God loved me or not.

Like, I knew everybody else thought I was going to hell, but I knew God, and I don't exactly believe in hell anymore like that either, and I had this sense that the church was gonna change and it would all be fine, and that's what God thought, too.

Well, God was wrong. Hate to say that. Or God and I were just not on the same timeframe with the United Methodist Church. Yeah. And ultimately, the United Methodist Church did not change. And, in the meantime, I met my wife and, fell in love and was like, "Oh, gotta say goodbye to the United Methodist Church," and so I did.

And in the, in the process, though, of leaving the United Methodist Church, someone outed me. And as a result of that, I... And I like to say this, it's kind of fun. You'd, you've probably never met anybody that got defrocked. What? I was officially defrocked.

Ally Brettnacher: never even heard that term in

Tammy Mills: I know.

It's like the 1600s

Ally Brettnacher: or

something. So they're like stripping you of your- Yes ... ordi- like you're not an

ordained minister.

Tammy Mills: credentials, and it's an official defrocking, and kick you out. And so the United Methodist Church did that

Ally Brettnacher: and,

What do they do, [00:50:00] like send you a letter?

Tammy Mills: Oh, I was ha- gonna have a trial Yeah, it's a real thing.

Back... And you have to think about back in the day, this is like

Ally Brettnacher: the 1600s? Exactly. Yeah, that's,

Tammy Mills: And trial by your colleagues that have liked you, but suddenly now they don't because of this, whatever. And at the time, I was at, in, in a church. I had met Nancy, and we had actually adopted our daughter, and I was on what was called leave, and I was in the process of leaving the church in that sense.

Yeah. But it just really, like really we needed to go through all this. But so anyway, that left a little bitter taste in my mouth, as one might imagine. Yeah. but me, God, love, whatever you wanna call God, were always okay, but it was just the church. So at that point, we'd moved to Indianapolis, and we're raising our daughter, and I was, a former parishioner actually was a, a superintendent at Lawrence Township Schools, and she's like, "Come work for me."

I'm like, "I don't know." So I, my degree, my undergraduate degree is in teaching. Okay. I love teaching, all kinds of teaching, any kind of... I just love teaching, always. So I went and worked for her and did that literally for 22 years then at Lawrence Township. Wow. But in the course of that, I, found the Unitarian Church,

Ally Brettnacher: Okay. Unitarian Universalist

Tammy Mills: Universalist Church, and the one [00:51:00] specifically in my community was just amazing.

They literally let me sit in the back of the church and just kinda heal, you know. And Unitarian Universalism is very open and just fabulous. Have nothing but good things to say about that. And, uh, just let me heal, and that was real important. And ultimately then, I took on a pastoral role in the Unitarian Church for them, and little by little found my way.

Re-frocked. Yeah, I re-frocked in a way. and was totally good living in that. And then, I made the decision to retire from teaching And I'll always remember that as I was packing up my classroom, the United Methodist Church, had suddenly decided they'd let gay people in. I'm like, "What? Gay people can be pastors now?

I'm retiring. What's up with that?" And, uh, I s- I did not wanna be i- in the United Methodist Church, but I'm like, "Gosh darn, give me my frock back. I paid for that seminary degree. Give me that frock back." So I called them and said, "I want my frock back." I said, "I want my credentials back 'cause you accept me now.

I want 'em back." I didn't quite realize that when I said that, that put into motion like, well, they did accept me back as an elder in full, like, like I'd never left. It was the weirdest [00:52:00] thing. and that meant you could have, that they were, had to give me a job. And I'm like, "I don't know if I want a job with you guys.

What's up with that? I like my church. I like my life." but I ended up taking a quarter-time appointment at Broadway United Methodist Church here in Indianapolis. And, in the course of the year I was there, just really felt like, "I wanna be here, because I wanna help them heal. I'm healed."

just felt like it would be important. so then ultimately I decided to, uh, tell the bishop I was ready for a full-time appointment, and I would like one an hour within Indianapolis 'cause our youngest was gonna be a senior and didn't wanna move. I

Ally Brettnacher: move.

Right. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: That would be bad

Ally Brettnacher: That'd be

Tammy Mills: He'd really hate

Ally Brettnacher: me Oof.

Tammy Mills: time. Yeah. He's got lots of reasons to hate

Ally Brettnacher: me,

Tammy Mills: but- Yeah ... that would be a real specific one. but then the bishop called. Well, she doesn't really call. It's a whole thing. But- Yeah ... anyway, and said, "I have a, the church I wanna send you to is in Michigan City."

I go, "Is that in Indiana? That can't be three hours from Indianapolis," or, "That can't be an hour from

Ally Brettnacher: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Turns out it's

Tammy Mills: An hour away. Yeah. Yeah. Turns out it's three hours

Ally Brettnacher: Indianapolis. I was gonna

Tammy Mills: That's fair. Nobody

knows that better than me. Yeah. so I couldn't imagine I was gonna say yes to it. You're really supposed to kinda say yes, but, like, you can [00:53:00] say no.

Ally Brettnacher: But

Tammy Mills: went up there, and you know how it is sometimes in life, and I had my medal. Nancy and I both went up there to meet the people and expecting to just let's do the process, see what it's like. Yeah. And then by the end of it we're like, "Oh, yeah." I knew, And it was right. I love Michigan City.

That church rocks. I mean, they get me totally, 'cause I'm a totally goofball pastor in many ways, You might have guessed, I'm maybe not your, how shall we call it, uh-

Ally Brettnacher: the boss kind of pastor-

Tammy Mills: kind of pastor. Right. Um, in any sense of that. and they really get that, and they're very open. They accept Nancy and I. I mean, it's j- and that's been very healing to actually- Yeah

the place that kicked you out and defrocked you, these people are actually, like, treat us as we're the gay-lesbian couple living in the parsonage, which is fantastic. Yeah. Um, and they love our kids. They've met our ki- you know, things like that. So that's been really ha- and I just...

It's like living at the ocean up there. Have you been to Michigan City?

Ally Brettnacher: I ha- there's a casino there, right?

Tammy Mills: There is.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, I've been there. Oh. I love a good...

Is that the

Tammy Mills: say, if you get a big wi- yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. I've been there once. It

Tammy Mills: it's the Blue Chip. Oh, sorry. Blue Chip. Four- that's okay. Four Winds is South Bend. Four Winds, yeah.

Yeah. A- I always say, if you get a big windfall, you gotta come by the [00:54:00] church and we'll bless it for you.

Ally Brettnacher: Hey, I like that. My aunt, who might... I'll have to make her listen to this. She lives, well, now she splits her time between Syracuse, Indiana, which is Lake Wawasee, and Venice, Florida. Okay. But we love a casino in my family, and so- And so we'll come to your house.

Yeah, yeah. I think the Blue Chip's the one I went to, and we had the worst luck ever, and it was really brutal. Well, we haven't. Yeah. I love craps,

Tammy Mills: Okay. I don't, not, I, I know what craps

Ally Brettnacher: but I- Yeah, yeah ... don't do it. So funny. Blue Chip, yeah. Michigan City.

Tammy Mills: Michigan City. Michigan City. I live one mile from the ocean, I call it.

Ally Brettnacher: it. The ocean.

It looks like

Tammy Mills: ocean. It looks like... You can't see- Right. And- You can't see land ... excuse me, on a good day, you can see Chicago. That's nice. You can literally get on a train less than a quarter mile from my office and be in Chicago in an hour, an hour and a

Ally Brettnacher: a half.

That's pretty cool.

Tammy Mills: It's very cool, 'cause one of my daughters lives in, my baby girl lives

Ally Brettnacher: Chicago. Oh. Well, that's perfect. It is perfect. Yeah. That's awesome. So

Tammy Mills: it's been a crazy year. You know, I started sharing that, like, I think New York City, I would've never said yes to the, any, the church, to any of that stuff.

But there's something about crossing that one particular finish line that just, I don't know. Yeah. [00:55:00] It was everything to me. And so I've changed up my whole life that way. Now it's been a lot of going back, 'cause we didn't move west, my son. so my wife and he stayed in Indy, and I moved up there, but

Ally Brettnacher: we- Okay

Tammy Mills: technically, we do a lot of driving- Okay ... back and

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, 'cause I had no idea you lived in Michigan City.

Yeah. Yeah. So did you get, did you stay here last

Tammy Mills: Yes, because we had, my son's, graduation open house

Ally Brettnacher: yesterday. Oh, it was yesterday. So it was perfect. Okay,

Tammy Mills: I was like, "I'll

Ally Brettnacher: Indy." I was like, "Tell me you did not drive three hours this morning." Oh, no. You'd be like, "Heck no."

Well,

Tammy Mills: I have done things like that. I have too. But, no, I was s- here. Uh, and now out of here I'll head back to Michigan City then. And then, like, Nancy will come up then and spend the weekends with me. Like, we do things like

Ally Brettnacher: that

Well, that's perfect for summer. Yeah. Summer up there has to be just

Tammy Mills: Oh, it's gonna be, yeah Yeah. We've got all of our beach stuff

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

Yeah. We've got all of our beach stuff

Tammy Mills: So it's gonna be cool, and hopefully she'll move up pretty soon,

Ally Brettnacher: Mm-hmm.

Tammy Mills: I'm sure that's tricky right now. He's off to, Purdue Engineering. Excellent.

Ally Brettnacher: So. Nice. Yeah. Nice. So he won't be too terribly far from

Tammy Mills: actually, oddly enough, he's doing motorsports engineering. Oh. Which is in Ind- their Purdue campus- Okay ... in Indianapolis because of

Ally Brettnacher: the sports. Makes a lot of sense.

Tammy Mills: A lot of sense ... yeah. Yeah. So he'll stay in Indy.

Ally Brettnacher: Okay. [00:56:00] Cool. very cool. Good for him. Well, I think that that story you shared is just, I think forgiveness is so important, and props to you for going back.

I think- Oh ... the example that sets for a lot of people who perhaps have gone through maybe similar feelings, whether it's with the church or in other situations in their life. Mm-hmm. I mean, that says a lot about who you are. Mm-hmm. And thank goodness they accept you.

I need the Catholic Church to be a little bit better about that,

Tammy Mills: But they, I like your pope now.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

He's a lot better. He's a lot better. But I mean, in terms of where I sit in my beliefs, it has been hard being a Catholic, because it's very black and white.

We don't accept that, and I like, that personally doesn't work for me.

Tammy Mills: Yeah. That's why I don't like to out myself as a Christian pastor.

Yeah. 'Cause Christianity is so associated with na- Christian nationalism now and all that kind of stuff, so I just hate that. Right. I am not that, and my church isn't that. And that's kind of why I'm there, 'cause I do believe in love. I believe that- Yeah ... you know, and all that kind of stuff, and everybody deserves a place to belong- Yes

and be in community, and to me, that's [00:57:00] what- Yeah ... love is, what church is, and, that's why I'm there. But- Yeah ... it's kind of weird now that I don't like people to know I'm a pastor necessarily, that don't know me in that con- 'cause it feels like I'm outing myself, like being gay again like that sort of thing.

Ally Brettnacher: Th- that's be so interesting because you essentially lived a double life.

Tammy Mills: Oh, yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: At what, at what point in your life did you know that you were gay? At what age?

Tammy Mills: didn't have the words for it until probably middle school, but I knew by third grade I was different. Okay. and I do believe sexuality is a spectrum or whatever.

I just happen to be really, like most things in my life- ... one end or the other, you

Ally Brettnacher: You know?

Tammy Mills: I had no idea what it was. It was about middle school I thought, "Oh, I think I know what this is. Oh." And then I immediately was raised in a very fundamental church and had heard that term there and heard hate about it.

So I'm like, "Oh. Oh." I d- And, and again, I didn't feel like I chose it or anything, so I didn't understand that at the time. But I'm like- Yeah ... "I gotta try to get rid of this," but I didn't even pick it. So I, how do you get rid of something you didn't pick up, so to speak, you know? Right. So that was really always a dilemma.

Yeah. And so, and I always felt that call to minister. [00:58:00] Like, I love being with people. To me, it's about building relationships. Mm-hmm. And I love that part of it. I love teaching. I love teaching spiritual things, so that made sense, and seeing people make those connections. Mm-hmm. Um, I love story and the power of story to teach, all that kind of stuff.

So all that, I always felt that call to that, but then always had to kind of wrestle with the idea that, "Well, called you to that, but you can't do it 'cause, well, there's this other thing about you." Right. So yeah, it was always like that kinda double life thing. Yeah. So certainly by college was really wrestling with that.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. I bet. When did you tell your parents?

Tammy Mills: And not officially until I was 40, till we were getting married and everything. I'd already gotten married and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Wow.

Tammy Mills: Yeah, it didn't go well.

Wow. And

Ally Brettnacher: I'm sorry.

Tammy Mills: Yeah.

I knew, always knew it wouldn't. Yeah. wouldn't. wrong, I was... Why did I...? One would think

Ally Brettnacher: Ugh

Tammy Mills: the time you're married and have kids that, you know, it'd probably be okay.

And they were really loving and accepting until I said it out loud, Even though up till that point they had accepted the wife, the kids, and I don't know what they thought about us, but yeah. my mom passed before we really [00:59:00] reconciled or anything.

Mm. But my dad and I are fairly close now, and he's supp- he was my son's graduation stuff and all that kinda stuff. So we have a connection, which is nice.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. Yeah.

And how'd you meet Nancy?

Tammy Mills: Well, I like to say I met her at church. I did. You know those gays, they're always meeting at church. Ah. I actually, I got moved to

Ally Brettnacher: Battle Ground, Indiana,

Tammy Mills: Ground, Indiana, which is up by, uh- Lafayette

Lafayette. I know, doesn't that sound... Get a call, "Hey, you're going to the Battle Ground Church." I'm

Ally Brettnacher: What was your high school again?

Wapakoneta. Yeah. Battle Ground, Wapa- Yeah ... yeah.

Tammy Mills: she, oddly enough, and you want a strange story, here. My mom taught at an elementary school, and her mom worked at an elementary school, and they were the same elementary school.

So growing up, I kinda knew her. my mom would oftentimes say things like, "Those Craig children, they are so fabulous." maybe saying to me, like, "Yo, girl, you could spiff it up a little. The Craigs are really something." So she's Nancy Craig. so I grew up kinda knowing about her, she's like three years younger than me, and how great the Craigs were and how, "Oh, they're nearly perfect."

I heard those things a lot. I probably didn't a lot, but it did stick with me. Mm-hmm. So I knew of her family, and we [01:00:00] literally different high schools, but literally five miles apart. Wow. But never actually met, met, but I did know about her for sure. And she went to Ball State, I went to Ball State, chirp, chirp.

Mm. Middle daughter, Ball State, chirp, chirp. Older daughter's a teacher, though. Better sh- get her a shout-out in here. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. Yeah, you better, Mom.

Tammy Mills: The older, teacher at Washington Township Schools, public schools, let's hear so we were kind of at Ball State at the same, but never met or anything like that.

And then, so all these years later, I'm in my 30s and get appointed to Battle Ground United Methodist, and she is working at Tippecanoe,

Ally Brettnacher: the

Tammy Mills: the Lilly lab. Uh, they used to have a plant up in Li- up- Okay ... in Tippecanoe County, and she was working at Tippie and going to Battle Ground Church, and that's where we met.

And when we met, I was like, the first time she introduced herself, I'm like, "Nancy Craig? Oh, my gosh, God, you are too..." I am not gonna be the pastor for so- one of these perfect Craig children. They're perfect. Why they need church for? Come on. But anyway, we, and we just built a, a really good friendship.

cause I don't wanna give the notion I would date somebody I was a p- pastor. Right. Uh, that would never happen. but anyway, so we just became [01:01:00] friends. And then it was into that friendship, uh, we were probably friends for like a year and a half, because of our mutual connections, schools and stuff like that.

And then it was, it was after, kinda after 9/11, I think it kinda opened a truth in both of us. Mm. And that's when we knew that, oh, there- so I don't wanna add her, her story or anything, but for us though, that was when I was ready. I knew the church wasn't gonna change.

And it wasn't just about her in that sense. It's like, " I can't have my family and have the Methodist Church." It was just that-

Ally Brettnacher: Right ... that clear. Yeah. And- Yeah ...

Tammy Mills: so then we met, and then we were had to get the hell out of Battle Ground. And we did.

Ally Brettnacher: Um- Yeah, it does not sound like a place that would be super accepting.

Tammy Mills: would be super accepting.

The... And not. That church left the United Methodist Church, so they were not super... But there, there are a lot of great people that I still think very fondly of and, cherish the times I ha- I had great times up there. but yeah, and came to Indy, and, she works at Lilly, and she'd got a job working for them down here, and I gotta say shout-out to them.

They were much more accepting than the United Methodist Church, and afforded us... At that time, you have to think back, there wasn't [01:02:00] recognition of marriage or anything like that, so we had to do things crazily to get legal, recognition- Oh my gosh ... and to get insurance and things like that, 'cause when I lost the Methodist Church, I didn't have that stuff.

And Lilly, worked with us and helped us, and even in adopting our children. our girls are adopted from China.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, they are? They are, yeah. That's

Tammy Mills: Chinese adoption. I n- always knew I wanted to do that. Um- Wow ... and it was beautiful, and they're amazing. And, so we had done that.

But, Lilly helped, they helped nor- well, I won't say normal, heterosexual couples with adoption, and they helped us a little bit with ours too.

Ally Brettnacher: incredible. Because-

Tammy Mills: That's wonderful. Yeah. Because back in the day, as gay parents, you couldn't both adopt. One of us, so I went to China and adopted, and then came back here, and we g- we got the privilege of paying to adopt again.

You had to adopt again to get the partner's name on the birth certificate Yeah, you had to do two adoptions. You couldn't do it as a couple 'cause legally you weren't a couple. And luckily Indiana, conservative state that it is, had made a law about stepparents in a way for s- it was called second parent adoption.

They could get on birth certificates, meaning it for [01:03:00] heterosexual couples. Yes, right. But a few judges, one in particular, Judge White in Tippecanoe Count- I think it was Judge White. I don't know, Tippecanoe County. Uh, we found, you know, I was... We gays speak amongst ourselves. We found a lawyer who knew a judge, and, uh, we were able to do that.

And then by our second daughter, it was still the same process, but there were a couple more judges that would do it as well. So we were always so proud that we ended up, fighting and

Ally Brettnacher: got- Yeah ... our,

Tammy Mills: our names are on their birth certificates. And then our son, Wes, uh, Nancy gave birth to him.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Tammy Mills: So he's, he's more homegrown, but I still had to adopt him.

Ally Brettnacher: More homegrown. That's the best. Um, but,

Tammy Mills: homegrown. Um, but, I had to adopt

Ally Brettnacher: then. Yeah, yeah.

Tammy Mills: which always felt a little odd.

Ally Brettnacher: little odd. Right. You're like,

Tammy Mills: there for the whole thing,

Ally Brettnacher: yeah. Like, well, okay. Okay. Make me do that. Man, well, as time goes on, I I hope it continues to get easier and easier for-

Tammy Mills: Well, I hope, but that does not, that is, let's be real, that is not the trend.

Yeah. And the hate is real as we celebrate Nuclear Family Month right now instead of Pride Month here in Indiana. And I'm all for nuclear families, but everything- Everybody- You have all 12 months of the year. Yeah,

Ally Brettnacher: everyone, [01:04:00] everybody deserves happiness.

Yeah. Whatever that looks like for them. how will you celebrate Pride? When is the, when is the Pride 5K down here?

Tammy Mills: Oh, well, the- In- ... Pride 5K already

Ally Brettnacher: happened. It is in May.

Is it? Oh, okay. It was. Why is it in May?

Tammy Mills: I'm not sure why they always do that. I don't know if it's a weather thing. Okay. I'm always surprised

Ally Brettnacher: that as well.

Tammy Mills: well. Yeah. 'Cause I'm like, "Well, okay." Yeah. Um, but Pride is this weekend, I believe, here in Indy.

But Nancy and I are actually gonna be in Michigan City Pride. We're gonna do Michigan City Pride. Yay. Love Indy Pride. My kids, if I don't say this, and if this doesn't make the podcast, that's fine, but my kids hate me for saying this. They go to every Pride with a-- They're huge allies. I'm so proud. All my kids turned out straight, sadly for us as

Ally Brettnacher: as gay parents.

You know, we were told we

Tammy Mills: were told we could only raise gay kids, and we, three straight kids. Yeah. But whatever. I'm sure they have a spectrum and wonderful lives. But, they always go to Pride with us. And I'm really proud that when you look at their friends and everything, they have the most eclectic group of friends, all three of them do.

You know, and I'm so proud of that, that they're huge allies and

Ally Brettnacher: Yes.

Tammy Mills: So they always go to Pride, and I always have a saying when we were at Pride, because we're standing there either marching or cheering, whatever we're doing at the parade. I always say, "Come on, family, get together. I [01:05:00] remember coming to Pride in Indy and there were more protesters than marchers."

And they, they laugh at me 'cause I do remember that, fearing for my life when we were out here. Um, there really were more protesters than Pride marchers. And now this... Have you been to the Pride parade?

Ally Brettnacher: I'm so embarrassed.

I have not. I know. And it's not because I'm not an ally. No, no. I just have not. You should. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: It's the most fun thing you can

Ally Brettnacher: I've seen so many-

Tammy Mills: It's a huge

Ally Brettnacher: party ... pictures and videos, and it looks

Tammy Mills: kids love it ... my kids would love it. Just check their, like, sometimes things get thrown off of floats that maybe you don't want your kids to open immediately. Oh. We always... Not, they're not bad.

They're appropriate things if you're a little older.

Ally Brettnacher: Okay.

Tammy Mills: you might not want your younger children to. Yeah. But, but that's fine

too. But,

yeah, you know, so, but it's a great, it's a really fun party, and you can do the parade for free. Um, usually you have to pay to get into the festival, goes on for, it really does go on forever.

And for me, as an old gay, and one who has literally celebrated Indy Pride for probably 30 years, to watch it grow and change that way is really amazing. Yeah. It's crazy.

Ally Brettnacher: I- Oh, the world is nuts. Okay, Well, the [01:06:00] year you turned 60.

Tammy Mills: Oh,

Ally Brettnacher: that was a big milestone- Yes

year for you as well- Exactly ... which we did not mention.

Tammy Mills: Yes. When I crossed the New York City Mar- like, my goal, my year, 60 was a year of epic shit. I didn't wanna cuss- 60 was your year ... too much in the podcast 'cause I want everybody to listen. Yeah. But I don't care. Uh, shit's an okay word. Yeah. Uh, but it was my year of epic shit, and that's one of the reasons I decided to do the New York City Marathon.

TAMMY MILLS INTERVIEW: like

Ally Brettnacher: my goal, my year, 60 was the year of epic shit. I didn't wanna- Seriously ... cuss too much on the podcast. That's, I, I- Oh, by the way, delicious. Yeah. But I don't care. Ah, shit's amazing. Yeah. but it was my year of epic shit, and that's one of the reasons I decided to do the New York City

Tammy Mills: So when I crossed that finish line, I had just turned 60, like, couple... Uh, my birthday's October 30th. Okay. So I had just turned 60. Wow. And it just felt like full circle, 'cause I really started my health journey when I turned 50, and so much had happened in those 10 years. And sometimes I think we think, "Oh, 50, you know?

What are we gonna do after 50?" I've done a lot after

Ally Brettnacher: 50. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: know? That you can pi- you can always do a lot or whatever. So that was really pivotal that year- Yeah ... in turning 60 and then doing that marathon.

Ally Brettnacher: It's such an important message. It gives me so much inspiration, too. I mean, just knowing that, you know, your life's not over when you turn 40.

It's totally- Especially, you

Tammy Mills: I have a lot of fear of aging-

That's so great ...myself- personally.

Like, okay, 60 is great, and that's why I do a lot of this running, 'cause I wanna be healthy.

Ally Brettnacher: live-" Yeah ...

Tammy Mills: live [01:07:00] because I wanna experience life.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

Tammy Mills: Yeah. That one of the gifts of going to Michigan City First United Methodist is there are a lot of women in the church, shout out to them, and this is no disrespect, ladies, a lot older than me, and they are amazing.

They are out living their lives. They're playing cards every night. They're going out to dinner. They're doing this. They're doing that. It's just shocking. One of the ladies I met, she's since passed, but she was a runner. She was in her 90s. She had done more races than I had done. She was... We love, I love meeting and chatting with her.

She was just the most amazing lady, and that was another sign I'd gone to the right place. Like, she was one of the first people I met, and she lived in an apartment in assisted living, but she was still getting around, and she was still complaining about, "Don't get around the way I used to." I go, "Girl, you're 90 and you're around,"

Ally Brettnacher: You're still alive. But they

Tammy Mills: they just gave me

so- They, they every day give me hope. Right. They have great friendships. They rib each other all the time. They are not some, like, social blah, blah, blah- Right ... barely moving. They are out there living their best lives in their 80s and 90s and still in charge of things and doing things.

Yeah. And that's been a real gift. [01:08:00] And, and, and my UU church, the same thing. one of my f- little ladies, shout out to Bonnie. Bonnie the Clogger. She clogs.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, good. I'm so glad we talked about Bonnie- Sun City- ... 'cause I forgot about that,

Tammy Mills: glad about that ... Circle City Cloggers, whatever.

Ally Brettnacher: tell people who they are if they don't know.

Sun City- If they haven't done the mini

Tammy Mills: Cloggers are, they, and she dances at the state fair and stuff, too. They go everywhere, but it's a, a clogging dancing group here in Indy, that's, I think, open to anybody. But my friend Bonnie, who's in her 80s, is a big old clogger, and every year she's at the Mini-Marathon at mile, what is it, mile-

Four and a half

four and a half or so. And I love giving Bonnie a hug there. But, um, she just teaches me that, you know, she drives a great Volkswagen Bug with little eyelashes on. I mean- Oh ... these ladies showing me you can live in your 80s and 90s and still living your best life. Yeah. And she's out there clogging and supporting and all

Ally Brettnacher: of stuff. Yeah. It's really awesome. I love that. That's really awesome.

Tammy Mills: It is. I'm very grateful. Yeah. I think gratitude has been a real... I've discovered the art, the discipline of gratitude. Mm-hmm. I think that's been key. Running gives me that. Yeah. and just I see gratitude as a spiritual discipline, that sense of every day [01:09:00] I post or about gratitude and think about gra- It really changed who I am

Ally Brettnacher: a person.

Mm-hmm.

Tammy Mills: it changes my mind. And, uh, so I'm grateful f- because I have such gratitude that I have these older women in my life, s- showing me that. And- Yeah ... gratitude in so many ways has been a life changer.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. I agree. My aunt got me a gratitude journal. Mm-hmm.

And, I'm really bad at journaling, kinda always have been, but, I will say that it, it really helped kinda kick off that, like, season of gratitude for me. it would have you think about all the little, tiny things- Yes

to be grateful for.

Yeah.

And you're like, "Wow, most days I don't even think about that. I'm thinking about something stupid that I'm stressed about." Mm-hmm. And it just, it does help to kinda always go back to that when you can.

Tammy Mills: The Course in Miracles describes a miracle as literally a change of mind And so every time I have a, that gratitude, I'm like, "I'm having a miracle," 'cause I have changed this attitude somehow

Ally Brettnacher: faith. Yeah ...

Tammy Mills: That is a miracle, truly. Yeah. A change of mind, change of direction, that is a miracle, and gratitude brings me that miracle every time.

N- now this works for me, 'cause I'm a bad [01:10:00] journaler, some... I don't know. It's not great at that. Uh, but I am social media person.

Ally Brettnacher: I was like Instagram's kinda

Tammy Mills: I have an Instagram secret. It's not really a secret. I don't, it's, uh, smiling every day, and I ha- every day I post one little thing that made me smile.

Mm. That's how I think of gratitude. Yeah. And that's truly been my thing, 'cause for a long time gratitude was house, dogs, car, house, dogs, car. Yeah. I'm always happy for those things- Yes ... grateful for those things, and then it was, finally it clicked one day. No, what did your dog do today that made you happy?

That's what gratitude's at. Yeah. " Oh, I love that she nearly pushed me down the steps 'cause she was so excited to see me." Like- ... that's gratitude, you know? And, yeah, I'm happy for my kids, I'm grateful for them. No. What did your kid do today- Yeah ... that made you- Right ... feel grateful? And f- when I finally clicked into that, you know, it's, so it's like I see a certain flower, I'm snapping a picture.

Like, that made me smile today, you know? Yeah. So you start looking at

the world differently-

Ally Brettnacher: I love that

Tammy Mills: me anyway. Uh.

Ally Brettnacher: Okay, quick side note on your Instagram, 'cause it's

Tammy Mills: This is mills365lego. Lego. What is that from? Oh, Lego master

Ally Brettnacher: here.

That's what I was gonna guess 'cause I- Yes ... yeah. [01:11:00] Okay, so-

Tammy Mills: Lego is my way...

I think because my jobs have always been up, open-ending, whether it's pastoring or teaching or whatever. Mm. Like, you never know if anything you do flourishes in the world. You hope

Ally Brettnacher: does. Yeah, right. 'Cause it's so good. Right.

Tammy Mills: But there's something about Lego that's so beautiful. You open it up, you create, and it's done, and it's gorgeous.

So when I relax my mind and really want to find peace, I build Lego. Yeah. I'm a Lego master, and my daughter shout... Now I can shout-out my oldest. My oldest, we were in Florida, in December, and she took me to Legoland for the first time. Oh, boy. Oh, my God. I did go to heaven. I, it turns out I'm not going to hell.

I went to heaven, and it was Legoland. Aah. Uh, but I love building Lego for that reason. Okay.

Ally Brettnacher: What does master mean? How do you become a Lego master?

Tammy Mills: I gave myself that title. Okay. But you do-

Ally Brettnacher: just do.

Tammy Mills: you just, I just, uh- Yeah ... there's no official, I don't

Ally Brettnacher: should be. There should be. Be kinda cool

Tammy Mills: then I just ... I don't know. It'd be cool.

There, there may be. I don't know. But- but there are adult friends of Lego and things like that. But yeah, I make all the Legos [01:12:00] and literally,

Ally Brettnacher: Wow. What are you working on right

Tammy Mills: What are you working on right now? Well, the Pride Legos. I have all those. Yeah. Like, different L- Legos, like unicorns. I do a lot of unicorns for Pride.

But Nancy got me the Harry Potter castle.

Ally Brettnacher: Get out.

We're in a big Harry Potter phase right now with my second grader, soon to be third grader. We, we just finished the second book. Shout

Tammy Mills: to my Potter.

Ally Brettnacher: to my Potter. Oh, boy.

Tammy Mills: And now let me

Ally Brettnacher: s- let me

Tammy Mills: s- let me caveat Harry Potter. Okay. I believe in the power of story I think the Harry Potter story has transcended its author, 'cause I don't in any way wanna endorse- Oh

or condone anything that she has come out with. but, uh, well, let's hope she finds her way back to the light. But I s- do believe in the power of story. I feel that way about the Bible too. The Bible's very political. It didn't all come to- like, it's a miracle that- Yeah ... the story speaks still. Mm-hmm. And for me, Harry Potter was the story that found me, when I was getting sober actually, this, uh, poor outcast little dude who had no clue, you know- Right

who he really was. Yes. And I feel like my life's been a journey of figuring out who I am. Yeah. Tammy- Look at that ... you're a wizard.

Ally Brettnacher: Whoa. I... Okay, now it makes sense.

It does. Everything makes sense all of a sudden.[01:13:00]

Yeah ... How... Oh,

Tammy Mills: power in that story. And, my favorite thing was like, I'm old, so I had to wait for the books to come out.

You know? Like, I'd literally go to the

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, me too. I remember going to Barnes & Noble- You were a kid though ... with my mom. Yeah, I was.

Tammy Mills: was. So. I had to pretend like I had a kid.

Ally Brettnacher: I did

Tammy Mills: I did not have a kid, but I was there dressed up waiting on my books.

Ally Brettnacher: That's so good. So

Tammy Mills: what I did with my kids, I couldn't wait to share the story

with them, but I

would only...

My kids love to read. They read all the time. But I would never let them read Harry Potter. We had to read it together. That's good. And we would start it at the summer, like the da- their first day of school, and we would read it through the summer. Oh, that's smart. And then they had to wait till the next summer to hear the next book.

Yeah. And we couldn't watch the movies either.

Ooh,

Ally Brettnacher: the movies either. Ooh, that is what I should do.

That was mine. Well, I should do that because my second grader, she's a little young for some of the stuff that gets pretty d- it starts to get pretty dark. It does, but not the first couple. And you're right, the first couple were good. She wa- we watched the second movie. She wasn't scared, thank good- and my five-year-old watched it, too, 'cause that's what happens when you have an older kid.

It's, they just get kind of- Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like, meh, she'll be fine. They just, they just accept it. Yeah, yeah. But we should... We finished the second book on the f- last day of school this year. [01:14:00] Okay. And so she's already hustling me to go to Chicago to go to the store there and, like, get the third book. Oh, New York has a good store, too.

Ugh, gosh,

Tammy Mills: Oh, and The Wizarding World, I went to the Universal

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, yeah. I wanna go there, too. I've never been, and I love Harry Potter, so. I...

Tammy Mills: yeah, it was smoo- I had gone, we had taken the kids when they were little, and they only had about half of it.

And so this year we took the whole family, the whole extended family, pretty much everybody. Well, actually Nancy didn't go, but she, it's okay. But we were at Universal and we got to get on the Hogwarts Express, and I felt like, " Yeah, I'm going to my home people." And actually, we hung out as a family for a while, and I'm like, "Kids, go, go enjoy your lives.

Mama needs to just sit

Ally Brettnacher: here

Yeah, this is my- Commune

Tammy Mills: my story, the power of story." Yeah. ' we find ourselves in story. Yeah. And that's how we learn about ourselves. Yeah. And I, I think that's why every runner has a story. Every race has a story. Like, I can tell you the story of my training, uh, for this Full Mo and who I became.

Mm-hmm. that is the power of story. Yeah. Yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: How long have you been sober?

Tammy Mills: Oh my gosh. At this point, like 32

Ally Brettnacher: 32

Tammy Mills: Yeah, for freaking [01:15:00] ever. Congratulations. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. It's not really a congratulations thing. It's the only thing where people congratulate you for breathing, essentially.

Like-

Ally Brettnacher: Good job being alive,

Tammy Mills: still a- being alive and haven't drank today. Way to go, girl. but- I

Ally Brettnacher: I'm sure that was not

Tammy Mills: not f- not easy. And I was- Yeah ... yeah, lots of reasons. Yeah. it was a very- difficult journey. A- and I was still thinking, I still sometimes, "Well, you know, it's over this long.

I'm sure I could drink now. Come on."

Ally Brettnacher: go." Right. Well, yeah.

Tammy Mills: minute I think that and think, "Okay, you're really wrestling with that and you wanna risk everything for that?" Like-

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah.

Tammy Mills: that seem like normal thinking? Probably not. A little stinky

Ally Brettnacher: there Yeah. I, I haven't had a drop of alcohol since before Ash Wednesday, so it's been I think over 100 days.

I'm not necessarily keeping track. But what I've found is that when I think about, you know, having a beer, I just think, "Well, I'm just gonna be tired." it just doesn't do it for me anymore. Yeah. So I just- Yeah ... it's just, I just don't. Yeah. And it's fine. It r- Nobody really cares. It's like- Mm-hmm

now we're in a world that, thank goodness, like, there's, you know- Normal ... NA beers that [01:16:00] taste great and, and all the things. But yeah. Anyway, we also didn't talk about how you were an Adidas sponsored athlete. Woo. Which I feel like now I get to kick you off my podcast. Sponsored athletes aren't allowed on here, Tammy.

I'm just saying.

Tammy Mills: Oh, I was loosely

Ally Brettnacher: No, I, I wanna hear that story really quick. But,

Tammy Mills: uh, Catherine Switzer was through... It was this race again. Oh. She is sponsored by Team Adidas, or Adidas sponsors her. Yeah. And so they take us on, and all of our race gear and stuff.

They sent me Adidas shoes. It's the only time in my running career I hear about these influencers getting shoes. Right. Do you get shoes? You probably get shoes.

Ally Brettnacher: Sometimes.

Tammy Mills: Oh,

TAMMY MILLS INTERVIEW: Ah!

Tammy Mills: that was, like, the dream. Yeah. And one day this pair of shoes came to my house, and then the best part was I was teaching fourth grade at the time, and they're, you know, they all, they love their shoes and all that.

Yes. We all about our kicks and all that kind of stuff. I love my Dunks and stuff. But anyway, I got to stand up and say, "Uh, yes, I'm an Adidas sponsored athlete," to my fourth graders. They lost it. You

Ally Brettnacher: That's so cool. They were very excited about that. That is so cool. Especially coming

Tammy Mills: me, who was never allowed to play sports 'cause they might make me gay.

Um- Yeah. ... and that sort of thing. Turns out it's not sports that make you gay, it's not playing them. But, uh, [01:17:00] anyway, I, you know, I'm sorry. That's okay. But anyway, to think now that I'm a sponsored, well, sort of was a sponsored athlete. Yeah. It was kind of loosely, but I- Oh, yeah ... I take... It was on my jacket, it was on my shoes.

Yeah. They sent me shoes.

Ally Brettnacher: You were on the team. They,

Tammy Mills: they sponsored our team. Yeah. So I'm very excited

Ally Brettnacher: I'm excited. I was very excited about that. Yeah. What a year that was.

Tammy Mills: was. It did literally empower everything after that. I know. And still does,

Ally Brettnacher: really. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: Still does. Yeah. So yeah. So where was I at marathons? I did Kentucky Derby.

Ally Brettnacher: We didn't talk about Shamrock. Oh. We mentioned it briefly. Oh,

Tammy Mills: let's talk Philly, 'cause you

did

Ally Brettnacher: well. Oh, in Philly. I did, tried.

Tammy Mills: I thought of you 'cause you, that's where there was soup at the end or something. Yes. What's at the end?

Ally Brettnacher: the chicken

Tammy Mills: could not find the chicken broth. it was the one thing at the end of that marathon, like, Ally says the chicken broth is life changing.

Ally Brettnacher: They didn't have it?

Tammy Mills: They had run out just before I got there. Stop. It was enough to make me wanna get faster for the... And it wasn't terri- I mean, I still, but that like

Ally Brettnacher: But man, you can't run out- I know ... on the chicken broth. And

Tammy Mills: and I was so looking forward, 'cause I'd heard you on several podcasts

Ally Brettnacher: S- ... some podcast talk about-

It, literally

Tammy Mills: the chicken broth. Yes. It will bring me back to life. Yeah. And I've listened to enough Ultra people talk about,

Ally Brettnacher: how they do stuff like that.

Yeah ... the

Tammy Mills: So I've like... But anyway, I did [01:18:00] not get to, but Philly was great. that was a great marathon. I, and that's what's been illuminating to me, especially since starting with working with Christie.

Maybe I'm not technically getting super fast or anything, but oh my goodness, the way I feel. Like, I never hit a wall at Philly.

I ra- my fa- one of my fastest miles was my last two.

Ally Brettnacher: Amazing.

Tammy Mills: You know, being able to do that. Yes. Like, okay, this is what I always wanted out of running. I'm in my body, I'm healthy, and I'm improving.

Yes. You know, which is really phenomenal, to feel that and to feel that at the end. Oh.

Ally Brettnacher: I feel like there's no better feeling than that. It is. Like, I never in my life thought I would ever negative split a race.

Tammy Mills: I still have not done that yet. Do you ever do it at all? But one of these days, it's coming.

Ally Brettnacher: soon. It's coming. Yeah, right. I mean, but it's something that doesn't happen overnight, obviously.

Yeah. It's a whole different way of thinking. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: Consistently showing up I finally get that. It's taken me all these years to get, but- Mm-hmm ... just consistently doing the work. Yeah. And Robin says that all the time, just- Right

gotta consistent. Consistency is key. Yeah. Have you ever done her, uh, December challenge? No.

Ally Brettnacher: No. 30 for 31. Mm-mm.

Tammy Mills: Or 30 for 31, where for the whole month of December, you move for 30 minutes. You can run, you can walk, you can dance, bike, it doesn't matter. Yeah. But [01:19:00] every day, 30 minutes. And I did that for like a year and a half because of that. Yeah. Like, it just really kicked, like that's what it's about, that consistency. It's not about one day running 20 miles and then not running again for a week. Right. It's really about the 30 minute. It's really about consistently- Yes ... just

Ally Brettnacher: just showing up.

Just

having it as part

Tammy Mills: it bu- does make a difference. Yeah. It really does. Yeah. You were mentioning about stretching, I too really- I need to ... you know, Christy's like strength and stretching. I'm about that. I really didn't buy it for the first maybe year we worked together, but I have to honestly confess, like now, like I really do it regularly and I notice a difference.

I hate to tell you

Ally Brettnacher: I know. I should stretch. I just really should.

Tammy Mills: I

don't wanna should you, but- Yeah ... I have noticed a huge difference, 'cause I really like, "Hey, if I got the guts to get out here and run, I'm, do not have time to stretch after." Yeah. But

Ally Brettnacher: yeah, it's

Tammy Mills: we- And I'll warm up. I, we don't have the...

I worked at The Runner's Forum for like five years to pay for my running shoe habit, and Jesse, I forget Jesse's last name, but he's a big famous indie runner. He doesn't live here now,

Ally Brettnacher: but

Oh, Davis.

Tammy Mills: Yes,

Ally Brettnacher: Jesse

Davis. Yeah. Super fast guy. Yes.

Tammy Mills: and one day I was running the Broad Ripple Run, so he's my boss, and [01:20:00] he's go, "Okay, go do your warmups."

I go

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah ... "What,

Tammy Mills: What, Jessie? "Well, yeah, go run before the race." And I go, "No, my run my warmup is in that first mile of the 5K." Yeah. He used to crack me up, like- Yeah ... he was, like, dead serious about stuff like that and- Yeah ... but now I kinda get... I don't run, but I, yeah, it does make a difference. Yeah. Right.

Ally Brettnacher: I know people do their drills and stuff to warm up, and I'm the same. I'm

Tammy Mills: I look at 'em like, "Girl"

Ally Brettnacher: just ... let's go. I

barely go- Yeah any

Tammy Mills: bit of energy I have's g- going in

Ally Brettnacher: this

one. I used to never do shakeout runs the day before races because I, I was like, "I'm not gonna run the day before a race."

Tammy Mills: I know. It's crazy.

Ally Brettnacher: That's gonna wear me out."

Tammy Mills: I agree, but

Ally Brettnacher: now- Which now you're like, "I kinda get it." I

kinda get it.

Tammy Mills: I kinda get it. Yeah. It kind of gets the nerves out and stuff. Right.

Ally Brettnacher: all systems, got make sure everything's good and- Yeah ... yeah, crazy.

Tammy Mills: But

yeah, Philly was, uh, just really great. But, and g- I s- my corral was right under the steps where Rocky is.

That's perfect. It was

Ally Brettnacher: perfect Yeah ... It's really... I would love to do that race again and not quit. That was really, that was the only marathon where I technically DNF'd because I chose the half, but I was, like, deathly ill.

Yeah I should not have been running at

Tammy Mills: gotta listen to your

Ally Brettnacher: well yeah. It was- I'm [01:21:00] learning

it was a bummer, but, you know, it was what it was. Exactly. It was the only time I tried to run two marathons in a season. That's what got me, I think. Yeah Just overdid it. My body wasn't,

having it. It said, "No, thanks.

Nope." And now they're on separate days,

Tammy Mills: so- That's true.

Yeah- So that's good ... 'cause I went and cheered for

Ally Brettnacher: half Yeah, yeah. Yeah So. Yeah.

Tammy Mills: Now, the, I do wanna say that I, the Shamrock Marathon, shout out to them.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, right. The Shamrock Ma- which is in

Tammy Mills: I wanna let people know that I had a hard time at the Shamrock Marathon, but don't give up, 'cause I, it was not my best marathon.

It got really hot.

Ally Brettnacher: What time of year is that one?

Tammy Mills: the end of March. End of March. It was my long run for this Full Mo.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, okay. Oh, it was this one. That's right. Yeah I did know that.

Tammy Mills: Yeah. And, but it is a great race, and it was a lot of fun. but if you're gonna have a race where it's really gonna get too hot at, towards the end, you get to, like, look at the ocean the whole way back, so that was good.

That is nice. That made a big

Ally Brettnacher: difference- Yeah ... I

Tammy Mills: you did the little bit of the town in there and you came out and you got to see the ocean and stuff. Yeah. That

Ally Brettnacher: fun. Yeah. That's good. Well, and it helped, I mean, the full MO got pretty toasty towards the end- Yes ... for sure. Those Orange Theory towels, like, chan- changed my

Tammy Mills: did not get one of those. I heard- Yeah ... I should've gotten one of those. Yeah. But I was so grateful they added [01:22:00] another aid station, especially for those of us finishing, you know, six, seven hours, 'cause it is just like an oven 'cause there's no... You have all that beautiful

Ally Brettnacher: shade Right, and then all of a sudden they're like, "Here, we're gonna put you on a stove top."

Tammy Mills: that's what it feels like out there in the middle of nowhere. It, it, yeah. So having an extra, it felt like, I've pretty sure there was an extra place

Ally Brettnacher: There wa-

Tammy Mills: would, yeah. About a mile and a half or so, like- Yeah ... you wouldn't think that, but like, oh, so

Ally Brettnacher: see them- It was nice. I remember

Tammy Mills: and they were cheery, and-

Ally Brettnacher: She had a megapho- I remember. We

Tammy Mills: a mile and a half left."

Ally Brettnacher: Yes. You're like, "Okay, but that's so far."

TAMMY MILLS INTERVIEW: that's so far." That feels like

Ally Brettnacher: You're like, "Oh, I'm tired." I know. It felt so far at that time. Oh, man. Oh. Yeah. okay, I have to ask you the end of the podcast questions favorite running mantra and/or song is the first question.

Tammy Mills: favorite m- mantra is, uh, probably Robin's chin up, crown on. Mm-hmm. It's been mine forever, and it continues to be the one I... ' Cause sometimes it, Chris'll be like, "Get it, let's do new mantras or whatever," like but...

And I do, but that's been the one, the- Yeah ... chin up, crown on.

Ally Brettnacher: I love it. You know? I have her children's book that I've read to my girls- Yeah ... by the way. It's so cute. Awesome. Yeah. Do you have a tattoo that says chin up, crown

Tammy Mills: I only have this one tattoo. Okay. I, this one's gonna be the New [01:23:00] York City

Ally Brettnacher: quote over there.

Of course. I love that you're planning that. I'm ready for more tattoos. but I just, I haven't decided what exactly. I

Tammy Mills: known ever since I crossed that, because I gotta quit carrying this around- Yeah ... at some point. It's

Ally Brettnacher: So I felt

Tammy Mills: like if I could get a tattoo of it, then I'd be set.

I... Yeah. Yeah. That'd be cool. I'm gonna do the course I think, that one you

Ally Brettnacher: that would be- Yeah

Tammy Mills: that would be cool. So song, You won't break my soul. You won't break my soul. I c- Yeah ... I always go back to

Ally Brettnacher: You won't break my soul.

Tammy Mills: And that always kick that on at the end of something. Yeah. Like, you ain't gonna break my soul. Yeah. Mm-mm. No, you ain't. You can do a lot. I've had a lot but- Yeah ... this run ain't gonna break my soul. So me and Beyoncé out there.

Ally Brettnacher: Yes,

that's a

Tammy Mills: know it, but she has helped me get through a lot of

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah, that's a good one. That's a really good one. Okay, and the next finish line and milestone

Tammy Mills: Woo

TAMMY MILLS INTERVIEW: New

Tammy Mills: Ooh, New York City, baby. New

Ally Brettnacher: New

Tammy Mills: going back. I'm going back to do it again. And my friend I was gonna run with it, she's doing it this year. Hopefully she's, worked through her injury, it's

Ally Brettnacher: Okay. Okay ... so,

Tammy Mills: she's doing it as well. I don't know if we'll run together together, but it'd be just be great to go back and to do that. And I'm running with, Tell Every Amazing Lady, which is ovarian cancer. Yes. I [01:24:00] had a good friend, about six years ago that passed away

Ally Brettnacher: that.

Tammy Mills: that and, I miss her a lot.

And one of the things that got me with her, she had a lot of different symptoms and things, and it just took forever to diagnose it. Oh. And as I got onto Team Teal and learning more about that, that is, there's no test that we can take that says you have ovarian cancer.

Instead you get treated for this symptom, and that symptom, and things. And then eventually, a lot of people's stories, then eventually they find it, and by the time they find it, it's

Ally Brettnacher: already spread and- It's too late. How do they eventually find it? Do you know?

Tammy Mills: just finally a different doctor, different doctor, different,

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. 'Cause I'm like, "What do you need?" 'Cause it's like, "I, hello, I need an MRI," or whatever it is to like find it.

Tammy Mills: more like you just keep going from doctor to

Ally Brettnacher: doctor.

Ugh, I hate that for us.

Yeah. Yeah. Women, it's, it's hard And

Tammy Mills: l- That's hard ... because it's a woman's thing- Yeah ... the way that, research has been, cut back so much, but especially it was never there for women's diseases anyway- Right

it really makes me happy to, uh, be raising money for them. Yeah. And to, it feels... And I think that's why I wanted to do, New York felt great for a lot of reasons, and one of 'em was 'cause I was doing it for something more than me. Right.

Ally Brettnacher: Yes.

Tammy Mills: And, uh, so to be able to do this for, for Kim, for, other people, or for my [01:25:00] daughters, Mm-hmm

it's important. Yeah. And, uh, so that's how this feels too. Like, this is more than me. I gotta cross for all of us that are- Yeah ... gonna deal with that.

Ally Brettnacher: feel So

Tammy Mills: I like that New York's become that race for me.

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah. That's awesome. I ran for Alex's Lemonade Stand- Oh, yeah ... which is childhood cancer. Yeah. Well, that's awesome And I thought of that many times through the race.

I was like, " There's kids with cancer, Ally. you can't be hurting that bad."

Tammy Mills: Have you run Columbus,

Ally Brettnacher: Huh-uh, no, but I've heard about that race.

Tammy Mills: oh, yeah I've done the half

Ally Brettnacher: times. Okay.

Tammy Mills: And they ha- every, ev- kids with f- well, not just... lots of different diseases Right, yeah They, but they sponsor the miles, and so you're out there running feeling like, "Oh my God, oh, darn."

Then you look, like, oh man, this family's out here supporting like that. And then there's one, a mile where they honor people that have

Ally Brettnacher: passed. Yes.

Oh my gosh. And-

Tammy Mills: it's a lot, but it's like, wow, you know? It just really kicks you into that gratitude- Yes ... and you think about their stories- Mm-hmm ... and how you try to carry on and stuff, so.

Yeah. Yeah, you should go do Columbus. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. I love, we love Columbus as a city. Yeah. Oh my gosh, if you like books, the best bookstore in the world is there.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, My

in-laws used to live there.

Oh. Now they're here. It's amazing. are you gonna do like Fort Ben or any... What are [01:26:00] you gonna do leading up to New York? Anything else

Tammy Mills: I'm sure I will. Yeah. last sh- I'll, I'll do a... Up in Michigan City, there was a LaPorte half marathon. I did it. I'll do

Ally Brettnacher: the Tour de LaPorte.

Yes. I remember seeing that, yeah.

Tammy Mills: It sounded fancy, didn't it? Yeah. Hilly.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh my gosh, really?

Tammy Mills: know. I thought up there at the lake and stuff, it'd be flat.

Yeah, no. But it was not. It was hilly. I mean, it was bad hilly. But I probably will do it again, 'cause it was not as bad hilly as

Ally Brettnacher: Yeah ... Kentucky. Well, and that's great for New York to have some hill stuff.

Yeah, I think

Tammy Mills: I'll do that. And Christy's always laughing 'cause I'm always like, "Oh, yeah, I signed up for that."

And actually, I've signed up for a February marathon too. I've always wanted to do, um, Every Woman.

Ally Brettnacher: Oh, I've w- And it's in

New Orleans ... That's

Tammy Mills: be in New Orleans. Oh, it is. I've never been to New Orleans.

Ally Brettnacher: so That'll be fun.

That's gonna be fun. Yeah.

That seems like a great excuse to go to New Orleans. Exactly.

Tammy Mills: Nancy's all about that one,

Ally Brettnacher: When is Mardi Gras?

Tammy Mills: I have no idea, but

Ally Brettnacher: very- It's arou- It'd be, it'll be before that ... It's like around... Okay. But it's like- Before that marathon, yeah. Yeah. But still, be like- Yeah. That's cool.

Tammy Mills: I probably don't need too much Mardi Gras.

Right. But, uh, uh,

Ally Brettnacher: But, um, I, I've,

Tammy Mills: it, I've, uh, just heard great things about that, and I get to... Catherine [01:27:00] Switzer's big in that and,

Ally Brettnacher: and it's like- Yeah, that's really

Tammy Mills: spon- Yeah, yeah ... her group's sponsoring that again, so to

Ally Brettnacher: fun. Oh, I wanna do that one someday too.

Yeah. Excellent. Well, I'm so glad we got to do this.

Tammy Mills: too, it was great I could

Ally Brettnacher: talk to you all day. That's what we do. That's what we do on the podcast. Right, yeah. Oh my gosh.

Tammy Mills: you get, old people. We got a lot of

Ally Brettnacher: I love all the stories.

Tammy Mills: the stories According to my kids, I

Ally Brettnacher: stories.

Tammy Mills: a lot of

Ally Brettnacher: yeah. It's the best. Did we miss any good ones that you were like, "Man, I shoulda told that story"?

Tammy Mills: I don't know. probably not,

Ally Brettnacher: Well, we'll save those for

the next time.

Tammy Mills: yeah

Ally Brettnacher: For

Tammy Mills: Oh To be continued To be continued That's the beauty, to be continued Yeah, yeah.

Ally Brettnacher: you so much for doing

Tammy Mills: Oh, my pleasure

Ally Brettnacher: And thank you to everybody who listened. Absolutely. And happy running. Thank you. Yay.

Tammy Mills: You too.

Let's go do another ultra

Ally Brettnacher: on. Gosh, yeah. Let's see. I'm ready. Mm-hmm.

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