Finish Lines & Milestones: Episode 72

Here's a link to listen to this week's episode.

Guest: Jim Patton

Show Notes: 

Jim Patton⁠ and I didn't meet through the running community. You'll have to listen to hear the story. I like to think of Indy as a "small, big town". During this conversation we talk about:

• How Jim and I know each other
• His sub-4 hour marathon in Mesa 2024
• Working on his nutrition, strength and following a running plan helped him find “edge”
• How he got into running 15 years ago
• The story of him being the first person to register for the Carmel Half Marathon (ever!) and one of the first members of the Carmel Runners Club
• Why he joins Indy Runners and Carmel Runners Club every year
• 2011 Marine Corps Marathon was his first marathon
• Getting sober 15.5 years ago and how that ties into his running journey
• Finding ways to give back - ⁠Back on My Feet⁠ (how he met ⁠Timmy Howard)⁠, ⁠Drumstick Dash⁠, ⁠American Cancer Society ⁠(his wife, Jennifer, is a survivor), and Big Brothers Big Sisters
• The unfortunate injury he’s dealing with right now heading into the NYC Marathon in November
• How we used to suck at training for races
• Our virtual race experiences - “The Jim-athon”
• A health scare he had at the Indy Mini in 2015
• The ⁠Ragnar⁠ events he’s done - 7 of them! And his team won their age group one year after another team admitted to cheating

⁠Donate to Jim's NYC Fundraiser

Episode Transcript

0:00

Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones with Allie Brettnacker.

Incredible stories and tales of triumphs with everyday people achieving their goals and fitness.

This podcast brought to you by Athlete Bouquets.

Celebrate finish lines and milestones of the people that you love by visiting athletebouquets.com.

0:22

Hello and welcome to episode 71.

This is Allie Brettnacker.

And as I record this, we are on the cusp of Labor Day weekend, which is just hard to believe, frankly.

Most of us are back in school, although some East coasters and I don't know, maybe W coasters still are almost there.

0:38

We've been in school for like a month already here in Carmel, IN, which is crazy.

And it is almost time for the Indiana Women's Running Festival.

I am so pumped.

It's on Saturday.

So if you listen to this on Friday, August 30th, when it comes out, it'll be tomorrow, August 31st.

0:56

So hopefully if you're listening and you're running, you're excited.

It's going to be a little warm for my taste, but it'll be fine.

It's not going to be 97° like it's supposed to be the day before, so at least there's that.

But I am, if you didn't already know, I have a booth at the Expo, my business, where I make gifts for runners.

1:17

So stop by and see me there and I will also be on the microphone in the morning, which is slightly terrifying.

I have these index cards I printed out to practice the announcements I will be making every 10 minutes.

So hopefully you don't get tired of my voice.

And if you want to hear more of my voice throughout the race, join me in the 155 pace group.

1:39

So it's the first time I've ever paced a race.

Last year I did this race with my friend Christy D, who paced 210, so slightly slower pace and it was in October.

And this year, you know, obviously it's Labor Day weekend and a little faster of a pace and I'll be flying solo.

1:56

I think.

I don't know.

I don't know who's going to be there to run with me.

So if you are listening to this and you're running the half, please come run with me so that I'm not alone.

And a quick note of congratulations to Chris Galloway and Mark Geyer for and their team for completing Hood to Coast last weekend.

2:15

And that brings us to this week's guest, Jim Patton.

He actually has done Hood to Coast a couple times.

He's done 7 Ragnars, which I know you're getting sick of me talking about perhaps, but mine is on the 20th, 21st of September.

So I of course had to pick his brain some more for some advice on his experiences.

2:34

But Jim and I met not through the running community at all, which is an interesting story, and I told him that I would love to have him on the podcast after he breaks 4 hours in the marathon because that was the goal he said he was chasing.

And sure enough, he did it this February and I finally got him on.

2:50

So he's gearing up for New York in November and we talk a lot about his running journey and all his involvement in the community here.

He has been a part of Indy Runners, Carmel Runners Club every year for the last 15 years.

He has been the president of the Carmel Runners Club, he did his first marathon in 2011, and he has found ways to give back after getting sober 15 1/2 years ago.

3:18

He has been involved now in Back on My Feet, Drumstick Dash, American Cancer Society and Big Brothers Big Sisters, which is really inspiring.

It makes me want to do even more for our community and I was really happy that I finally got a chance to sit down and really get to know Jim.

3:35

So enjoy this conversation.

Hello, Jim.

Allie, how are you?

Good.

How are you?

Good.

I am just thinking back to the first time that we met, which is so funny because nobody's going to expect this story.

No, they're not.

They're.

Going to be like, oh, through a race or something.

3:51

Yes, but you were the officiant at my sister's wedding.

I was, yes, I my cousin Mike.

It's ironic.

So I go go back.

I actually played a role in his mom and dad's wedding.

And then when his sister about seven years ago, Katie decided to get married, she approached me and said, hey, would you officiate my wedding?

4:10

And I've never done that before.

And I'm like, yeah, I'm quite flattered and honored.

And so I said I would do that.

And I have a lot of friends say, how did you get into this business of officiating weddings?

And I said, I think I cuz I say the family prayer at reunions and that gave me the the credentials.

4:27

But yeah, so I did.

I've done 3 weddings now.

Morgan's and Mike's was the was the third one I've done.

So cool.

Yeah, yeah, it's almost been a year now.

It has almost been a year and Katie was about seven years ago.

And it's a funny story.

So when her mom and dad got married, Mike's mom and dad got married, videotaping weddings had just started.

4:45

So we're going way back, right?

Like we're going back to the mid 80s.

And I worked at a video store.

And so her mom and dad said, hey, could, you know, would you be interested in videotaping our wedding?

So I can figure that out.

I was in college.

I think I was a sophomore at the time.

And that's when cameras were huge and you put them up on your shoulder.

5:01

And so I can figure this out.

So we get to the church for the rehearsal dinner and the rehearsal.

I mean, and the pastor at the church was not keen on this.

This was new.

And he said, OK, look, you stand right up here in the front.

You're in the corner.

I don't want to see you do your thing.

I said, OK, well we get to the wedding the next night and they put flowers all around where I was supposed to stand with a camera, but the pastor said stand there with the camera.

5:21

So I videotaped and the autumn, the automatic focus kept going back and forth.

And so most of their wedding, they're camouflage.

So if you go back and look at their wedding tape.

And so it's been something I've had to try to live down for now 30 plus years because it comes up every holiday.

That's really fun.

Yeah, they look like they're in camo.

5:37

That's well, you're like, well, I was just obeying.

I was cheap.

Well, I don't have any video of my wedding.

Can you believe that?

Yeah, 2014, we got married and I, that's one of my regrets.

First regret is not getting a band.

5:53

We did a little DJI just had my heart set on hearing the songs.

I love the way that they are, but I regret not getting a band.

Bands way better and then not having a videographer.

I don't know why.

I just was like, my husband Zach was kind of like, do we really need to spend the money on that?

6:08

I'm like, yeah, probably not.

And I don't know how often people go back and watch them.

So you might you might not be missing out.

I know, but I wouldn't watch like the whole thing.

You know, you could all these people have these cute little like 5 minute clips of just seeing it and like I have a couple of phone videos from that night and it's just funny because I'm like wow, my memory is sucks.

6:28

So just being able to see some of that, I'm like, oh wow, yeah, I didn't think about that.

Or I don't know.

Anyway I.

Regret that well, it's funny about South then the following year, so I'd videotape that wedding.

Everybody's laugh and it's camo.

The following year John and Diana could not come to Christmas and so they sent a video and they said hey, put plug this in skin family.

6:45

So I plug it in and they're sitting behind their Christmas tree carrying on a conversation, telling everybody, you know, Merry Christmas, mocking that I had done that with him with a flower.

So it's just continued.

That's great.

Oh, man, that's really funny.

Yeah, you're never.

I guess you're just never going to live.

It down and I've never been asked to videotape at other weddings.

7:01

Well, that hey, I mean, that's kind of nice.

Yeah.

That's like putting your finger over the lens of like taking important.

Pictures.

Yeah, it's kind of like that.

Yeah, my grandma always used to, like, press the button really hard on cameras, and so she'd cut everyone's head off, so she'd never looked that down.

Yeah.

7:16

So yeah, it was so funny.

We met, and I remember, I don't know if it was Morgan or Mike introducing us and being like, hey, Jim runs.

Yeah, you can talk to Jim.

Well, I remember I met you once previous just briefly, and it was after I don't it's the monumental half or full you'd.

Run.

It was Morgan, Mike.

And it was, you know, the weather wasn't great or something.

7:34

We spoke to each other and said yeah.

No, that's right.

It was the monumental.

He never chatted with.

You.

Yeah, right.

It was like, OK, well, you know, like when you're a runner, you can talk to runners, right?

Someone they're like, look, here's a runner.

And we didn't really get to chat much at the wedding, sadly.

So now we get to.

And I've seen you, I feel like, everywhere since, like just here and there on the Monon.

7:54

I saw you the other day at the State Fair with your granddaughter Nina, and yeah, so.

Yeah, no, I, we have seen each other quite a bit and I've listened to a number of your podcasts and you know, a number of the people you've talked to are good friends of mine are running friends.

So it's been cool to, to listen to the series and hear everybody's story and you know, how they got involved and what they're doing now and whether they're chasing a dream or trying to have fun or maybe a little bit of both.

8:17

So.

Yeah, no, that's where I saw you too, at Timmy's thing, which we'll talk about.

Yeah, later.

I, I remember when you and I talked briefly about running, I think it was at the wedding, you were chasing that sub 4 hour marathon.

I'm like, OK, Jim, when you get that sub 4 hour, you're coming on and you're telling us all about it.

8:38

Yes, on the podcast.

And you held to that, and so did I, yeah.

You did and you crushed it.

You didn't just get a sub 4 hour.

You got it was like what one or what one?

55355, yes, yeah. 35455 yes, OK, call it 354.

8:55

Yeah, that counts.

I know my PR is like 357, like 58 or something very close to.

So you got to.

Yeah, yeah.

So what was what was that journey like getting to that sub four?

Well, we'll go way back too, but I want to hear about your sub four.

9:11

So no, that's a great question.

You know, without going too far back, about five years ago I got real serious.

I started running 15 years ago, lost some weight.

We can talk about that at some point.

But five years ago, because I was starting to get in really good shape, I'm like, you know, I wonder if I could break 4 hours, maybe I'm going to chase this because I've gone 4 1/2 hours and I completed Chicago in 2018 and was like 412.

9:34

So I said let's go all on in this.

So I got a running coach.

I went to Saint Vincent's Sports Performance and got a sports dietitian and got, you know, real serious and not doing so much strength, which ends up coming part of the story as well.

And then did Chicago in 2019 and got down to four O 2.

9:53

I took a bathroom break, but I don't think that's why I didn't get it because I think I was a lot faster after I came out of the bathroom.

So yeah, it was a it was a it was a process.

And so then what I did to amp it up like, hey, now I'm getting real close is in the last before and this was Mesa in February went where I broke for hours about eight months before that.

10:13

I said I need to go all in on strength too.

So I joined D1A gym here and in, you know, in town there's one.

Of.

These yeah, it's a good mix of cardio strength, strength on free weight, stuff I hadn't done since I was like in high school and college.

So benching with free weights and squats and deadlifts and so that combination with the nutrition and then following a running plan religiously, it was in the best shape of my life.

10:37

You know, I know a lot of Strava users on here, Garmin users, I, you know what talks about your VO2 Max and talks about your age equivalent.

Like I got down to 20.

I was like, it says you're 20 years old.

This is awesome.

I don't know if I'll ever be down.

I think I'm at 32 right now since the marathon got out there that day and it was I like Mesa because there's no humidity.

10:57

It's February, it's not hot yet.

That day was pouring down rain, which and we'd gone to Palm Springs the week before on vacation.

It never rains in Palm Springs.

It's a desert.

It rained all week.

It's when that tropical river or whatever they call it came to California.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So lots of rain.

11:13

So waiting for the race to start.

You're sitting in a bus and it quits raining.

It's like, OK, this is good.

Get out there and about it hit quit raining until probably about 12 miles in and it just poured.

But I got into everything worked.

I got into a zone.

A lot of it was mental.

11:28

I learned the last year or so that I would get to it in miles 19 or 20 and start to go.

I can't do this.

And so trying to, I read a lot of books, Steve Magnus do hard things.

One of my favorite books, like being tough isn't maybe always the way I was raised on being tough, like, you know, yell and scream and look at yourself and, you know, maybe, but it's more like mental toughness.

11:49

Like, OK, this is going to get hard.

What are we going to do here?

And it did start to get hard.

And I was like, you've got this, like you, you know, you're trained, you're, you know, and, and as it got, as the mile started clicking away and you got the mile 20/21/22 in your head, you start doing the math going, whoa, I do got this, right?

12:04

Like I could even slow down.

And it's like, no, don't slow down.

Like no, like go as fast as you can.

And for me, because of my age, 350 would actually have been a qualifying time for Boston.

Obviously there's add some minutes to that or take some minutes off because of the standard.

But yeah, it was, it was unbelievable.

12:21

And I'd gone to Mesa the year prior and also set my half PR.

So my half PR had been 154.

And when I went, I went 147, which was like never in my waters dream.

So it's like, how does this happen?

So now Mesa has become a favorite place of mine and my wife likes going out there.

12:37

It's a nice break in the winter.

And so we've, we've even talked about going maybe this next year and spending a month out there and yeah, we can work remotely and, you know, play at the same time.

Right, right.

Which?

What part of February?

Is it early February?

Early February?

It's like around the 8th, 10th, 9th.

I'm gonna commit.

You stay out there and then do Vegas.

12:55

OK, that would be good.

It's a different.

Race end of February OK, that would be good night race.

Oh, that would be fun.

And my dad and I usually do it together, but this year he has a golf tournament now I guess that's that that weekend that my mom wants to do.

And so he's given up his Vegas running trip.

And so but I already registered he likes strong armed me into registering.

13:12

So I'm.

Like Vegas?

So I'm going to go, I want to go.

So now I'm trying to recruit people to come do it because it's really fun.

So if you're you know, if you're out there the whole.

Month taking it out right?

Sure, you can just do that on your way home A.

Couple weeks to recover and then head to Vegas.

Yeah, exactly.

I like it.

So wow, how did you feel good when you crossed the finish line?

13:30

Like you still felt strong?

I did.

Yeah, yeah, I did, I I did.

And I same way with the half, I tried to also enjoy it.

I had a have a history for a whole bunch of reasons when I would finish a race and even though maybe it was my PR saying, yeah, but you know what, I could have gone faster and not enjoying the moment, right like.

13:50

Yeah, that's.

Hard And so for the I've worked on that too.

So when I did that in the half, you know, I was smiling.

I had friends out there with me taking pictures, like you're smiling like a little kid.

And I did the whole day long.

I just grinned from ear to ear.

It was the same way the full like I knew it's the hardest recovery I've had.

So I know I went pretty hard.

14:07

It took a long while to get the aches and pains to go away.

But yeah, I felt really good.

Yeah, I think that's a testament to to doing it right, like the, like you said, strength nutrition coach.

Yeah, 'cause I, I 'cause some people, you know, some people, not everybody can afford that.

14:22

But then I started looking at how much it cost to do that.

I've wasted money on so many worse things, Ally.

I mean, it's like plenty and and the nutrition, what really started that besides, yeah, I'm trying to get faster is I just got to a point where I want to feel good when I wake up in the morning and quit eating crap and waking up and going, you know, like feeling hungover even though you haven't been drinking because you ate a bunch of stuff you shouldn't.

14:42

So that I started with Saint Vincent's Sports Performance, Lindsay Langford, who I'll give kudos to on here.

Four years ago and we got pretty healthy.

COVID came and though I was still running a lot, I ran a ton during COVID, like a lot of people because that's something we could do.

That was normal.

My nutrition went to Nell wafers and cheeses.

14:58

I mean, those are my go to's, right?

I could eat a whole box of Nell wafers.

So I went back to see Lindsay two years ago and actually we said, well, let's see where you are.

Let's do a baseline look at your body fat.

You know, we'll do the bod pod.

And I'll never forget she came out we sit down in her office and she looked at it and she said, well, let's just set this to a side now just talk and I go, Lindsay, you can tell me.

15:16

I mean, is it bad?

Because I know it's going to be.

And she goes, what's not good, right?

Like your body fat's gone way up and your muscle mass has gone down and yes, aging is part of that, but we can get a lot of back that back with nutrition.

So yeah, I would say anybody that's wanting to and then for that rights beyond running, it's just healthy lifestyle.

15:35

But if anybody wants to, if you're looking for that edge, it's for me it was strength.

Fond of running plan and nutrition.

So I've got two of the three of those.

I've got my running coach, I've got I do strength, she makes me do strength.

So then I do it and but I don't have the nutrition piece yet.

I finally started actually carb loading like before a race because I used to think pasta the night before was enough.

15:58

To truly carve that way, sure.

You know, which I'm sure people listening are like, oh really?

So I actually like followed.

It was a Featherstone Nutrition has a plan that you can find on the Internet, but it's basically you just you eat so much more than you'd anticipate to carve load.

16:15

But obviously that's not all about what you need for nutrition to fuel your body.

I've started reading a book recently.

Oh my gosh, I should know her name.

Jackie is her first name.

What's her last name?

I forget but about feeling for the finish line.

And so that's a piece I'm very interested in.

16:30

Yeah, it was, It was fascinating because I thought I knew a lot, right?

Because I've been running for, well, at that time, 11 years.

Like, I know this.

I know I'm supposed to drink some water before you run.

I learned a ton.

In fact, I was still trying to lose a few pounds at that point.

And when I started working with Lindsay and Lindsay's, she's does all the nutrition for Butler sports.

16:48

She the US women's soccer team and the World Cup.

She got to travel with them.

And it's kind of cool.

Like she's with them.

She's now working with the Bengals, inside Bengals.

And it's like, and Jim, like, you know, you got to fit me in Joe Burrow and where do I fit in?

But I learned a ton.

17:04

I learned, she said, Jim, you can take in.

You should be taking in more calories and you could still be losing weight.

Like that's how because I'd just gone off the old BMI index.

Well, and it's like, whoa, I got like 30 more pounds to lose and she's like, no, you've got like maybe four, I mean.

17:20

You just have to switch the.

Muscle.

And the.

Fat right and so learned it I learned it I I sweat more than the average human so I learned that hey start taking salt tablets and taking more water well that was a game changer because I realized sometimes when I was slowing down it had nothing to do with my running ability but it was dehydrating and just didn't realize it so just.

17:41

Stuff like that.

So many Cool.

That's so interesting.

Yeah, I I think I should do that.

I need to need to figure that out.

I'll give her.

I'll give you her message.

Yeah, Perfect.

Yeah, although it sounds expensive if she's like working with the US women.

No, it's not.

Like I think, no, it's $75 a visit or something.

17:59

I mean, it's not, that's what's.

Amazing.

Like you said, if I just stop buying, you know, Java house coffee all the time or going to Starbucks, like save a few bucks a month for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's really interesting.

Well, congratulations again on that feat.

18:14

That's so awesome.

I hope you've been able to relish in that moment and enjoy it.

I have probably relish too long 'cause it was like, well, you know, what am I going to do next?

And you know, those days when I was all in, there were some days where I would hit the gym in the morning and run in the afternoon and hey, can I do 8 workouts this week?

18:32

Can I do nine?

And now it's kind of like I'll go for a run, but I don't know if I want to do any speed work.

I mean, that's kind of hot out or, you know, in the gym, maybe I can go tomorrow.

So it's been hard to like, what's that next milestone?

And we'll, we'll get to that as well.

18:50

OK, so now let's let's go back a little bit.

How in the heck did you get into running in the first place?

A great question.

So I, as I said, I started running 15 years ago.

So I'm 59, so I was 44 years old and I've been an athlete all through high school, in fact right across the street at Carmel High School, played football, couple state championship football teams.

19:10

But when I got to college I didn't, that kind of all went away.

I didn't keep working out.

And so by you Fast forward to 15 years ago, I weighed about £70 more than I do now.

Wait about 270 and I just said, if you don't do something, you're going to die.

I mean, you got to get up off the couch.

19:26

And I'll never forget it was a it was in January in Saint Louis.

I was there on business.

It was snowing and I had some running shoes with me.

And I thought, well, all these people that say, hey, you can run year round and I, you know, I'm going to give this a try and see what's like.

I went out and ran a mile and thought I would die.

19:43

But you just slowly, unlike a lot of things I've done my life said, OK, how do I do this and do this the right way?

Because as you know, if you go haven't worked out for a while and you go lift a bunch of weights, you're so sore.

You go, God, I can't do it tomorrow because I'm so, so sore today.

So how do I do this the right way?

Got into some running programs.

19:58

There was a program back 15 years ago called Bricks to Bricks to help you train for the mini.

So I think that maybe I'll do that.

And so I started learning what's, what should a week look like for a beginning runner?

Like you don't go out and run as fast as you can every day, right?

Like, let's spread this out.

It's a couple days and I started losing some weight then.

20:16

And so that was pretty cool because that's why I wanted to do it.

And as the weight started to come off, it's like I said, I said, well, I think I'll do the mini.

And I, I'd done the mini back in 2003 when I was younger, decided I didn't like running.

I didn't want to do it.

I think I did it again in 2004, 2003 I trained, 2004 I didn't.

20:32

And as you know, if you've ever gone and done a race and you haven't trained, that's miserable.

And so I don't want to do this anymore.

That's.

My husband every year at the Mini.

It's yeah, it's hard.

He thinks because he goes to the gym every day like it's the.

Same he.

Can just show up and do it.

I'm like, one of these times you're going to hate, hate it.

And that was this year.

20:48

My younger daughter, she's run the mini with me, I don't know, four or five times.

And she said a few years ago, she said, you know, I can't just like show up anymore.

You know, I was younger when I was 16, I could show up now it's not much fun, Dad at 28 just to show up.

So started to do that, ran the mini.

21:05

And then I thought, well, you know what, I bet Carmel, you know, I live in Carmel.

I wonder if they have a running club and they were just starting Carmel Runners Club.

How long ago was that?

So this was, this was probably 14 years ago.

Yeah, right.

When I'd started, within a year, when I'd started and Carmel and the Carmel Marathon had just come along too.

21:22

They said we're going to have this race, the Carmel Marathon, it's going to have 1/2 marathon.

So I signed up to do the Carmel half Marathon.

I get a phone call and they said, you're the first person to sign up, we want to interview you.

We're going to do some PR around it.

And I go, you got the wrong guy, right.

Like, I'm not an elite runner.

21:38

I'm not, you know, from Kenya or Ethiopia.

And they're like, you're perfect.

You're just the kind of guy we want to talk to because we're trying to promote this for the, for the average everyday runner.

Yeah.

So I'm like, OK.

And they came and they interviewed me and they brought me a caramel.

What marathon shirt?

OK.

Is that interview somewhere on the Internet that?

21:54

Would be great to know I don't.

Know well my Googling didn't find.

It.

No, no.

So it was.

I think it may end up being actually a newspaper article.

That's so cool.

Yeah.

So I got involved in, tried to do it the right way, got involved early on with the, I was looking at ways to give back.

22:10

Got involved with American Cancer Society for a while.

You could, they had different programs.

You could run 1/2 marathon and raise money or run a full or, you know, 5K.

And my wife's a breast cancer survivor.

So that's kind of close to us.

And so I did that for a while, but that's actually, you know, how I got involved was I just wanted to start, I wanted to get the weight off and it's been amazing.

22:30

It's I'm fortunate because people you hear this all the time, right?

And I know your listeners do too.

Well, it doesn't hurt your knees.

Like, don't your knees hurt?

As I roll my eyes, nobody can see me being like.

That and I'm like, no, because I didn't start running till I was 44.

So I was, I'm, I'm a newish runner.

22:45

I don't know if I can keep saying that, but that's why I kept part of why I kept getting faster and by my body held up is unlike my friends who have run their whole life, some friends, they're starting to break down because they've run for decades.

Well, I've run for, you know, 1415 years.

So that's a bit of an advantage, yeah.

23:02

Yeah, it's like my, I, I forget how old my dad was when he started running, but he was also a later in life runner.

And I don't know, he's, it's getting to him now.

I tell you he's going to be, he's 68, so about 10 years older than you.

But yeah, I think it's pretty cool when people start later in life because I, I don't know, people listening, maybe they've never done a marathon or even a half marathon.

23:24

And it's like, you know, it's, it's really never too late.

And it's also.

People think they can't do it.

And it's, you know, we hear you talk about some of the ways that you did it the right way.

I think anybody, anybody can literally.

I try to, I tell people on the poster shot for that because I mean, I was like, I had not done anything.

23:40

I mean, I was completely sedentary and I was like, how, how, how am I going to do this?

And you know, people said you'd enjoy it.

And for those first few years, I enjoyed it when I was done each time.

But then I, you know, 5-6 years in, I was like, no, I, I really enjoy this while I'm doing this.

This is kind of cool, right?

And it became more than physical.

23:56

It became mental, a mental health break and all those things, you know, the building friendships and, and you know, with, with an age, you know, friends now they're in their 20s that are all maybe all the way up into their 70s that we have something in common.

Right, yes.

And so were you a founding member of the Carmel Runners Club?

24:14

Then I was one of the, yeah, I was one of the first members I stayed in.

It's interesting.

Over the years I always joined.

Each year I joined Carmel Runners and Indy Runners.

OK, partly because I've lived in car.

We lived in Carmel, then we moved to Indy for a few years and moved back to Carmel.

Main reason why is I tell people, I feel like then if I'm on a Saturday long run, I can drink anybody's Powerade because I've paid for it.

24:32

So I feel like, but I was, I, I was present at Carmel Runners for a few years and moved to Indy.

I got involved in Indy Runners, was on the board.

So, and there's a lot of people that overlap, you know, those clubs and you know, we go to all the same races.

That's funny.

So you can drink the.

24:48

Power.

Yeah, I've.

Totally.

I can picture it on 86th.

Street at the.

Station.

I've totally done it without being a member.

I'm so sorry, so sorry.

I was desperate and I was like, I don't, I don't know if anyone's.

Going to care, but yeah, they don't care.

It's yeah, that's so that's yeah, being part.

25:04

I've never actually been part of a running club, if you can believe that.

It's, you know, it's it's good, the social part of it's great car.

More runners I know they build themselves is a social club with a running problem, right.

And it's really grown.

Yeah.

And within those groups, you find people that, you know, either you have some commonalities with because where you're at in life or what your paces are or some combinations of those.

25:24

And so maybe you'd break off and spin off.

But, you know, both groups, you can be as social or as not as social as you want.

Some people come just because I want a training plan and I want somebody to run with my own pace.

And others you know, they love the social part.

Of it, yeah.

When did you?

So you signed up for the Carmel Half and that was your first half marathon?

25:42

Ever the the mini was my.

First, OK, No, sorry.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then?

So then you did the Carmel half.

When did you decide?

OK, you know, I've done a few half marathons.

I kind of like this.

Let's go for the marathon.

So this would probably be where, though I said I did it right, I went fast.

25:58

I mean, in terms of going progressing up to what I want to do next.

So in 2011, I decided I wanted to do the Marine Corps Marathon.

So I've been running like a year and a half and signed up for the Marine Corps Marathon.

At the time it was a lottery, or wasn't a lottery.

It was first come, first served.

26:13

And I got right on that and got in.

And so that was my first experience.

It was awesome.

That was your first marathon.

First marathon 2000.

Did I know that?

I don't know.

You may not have known that.

Because I've done Marine Corps as well.

Yeah, it was awesome.

It's.

So I want to go back.

I want to do it again.

I told people, I said I don't know how I'm ever going to top it because it was so organized, because it was put on by the Marines.

26:30

I mean, yeah.

And you had Marines hand in your water.

And I'll never forget being like at mile 23 and just.

I'm slowing down, I'm breaking down, I'm walking.

And the Marine going, come on, you got this, You got this.

And my nephew had just, my nephew's the same age as my oldest daughter, and he had to listen to Marines.

26:47

And I'm sitting there going, my nephew's in the Marines.

I got this Marine cheering for him.

And we're going to finish at this, you know, World War 2 monument.

And so as I finished, I got tears in my eyes, right?

And someone came up to me and said, yeah, it's really touching the monument.

I said it is.

But also these cramps are killing.

Me, actually, I have a lot of pain.

27:03

But yes, it is.

I'm so tired.

Yeah, yeah, man.

I'm just in pain.

That's really funny.

Yeah, yeah.

So it was a great experience.

I went, I think it yeah, it was 4 1/2 hours.

Some friends of mine who I worked with at the time who ran the mini when I got back and running, ran the mini with me for before I'd done the Marine Corps and thought that this was maybe just like a temporary thing.

27:25

So they came and ran with me.

Hey, we did the half with you.

Great.

Like you're doing the marathon now.

And he ordered me a nice plaque and, you know, send it to me.

I still have hanging up to this day.

And they're like, we're out.

We're not going to continue to keep doing races and stuff with you.

Right.

We didn't know you were going to like.

Do this all the time.

Become a lifestyle, Yeah.

27:42

Right.

Oh, man, Yeah, Marine Corps was just, yeah, incredible.

And next year is going to be the 50th year.

OK, I didn't realize that I had not been back.

I did not realize.

Jay Idoljorg, who's Fishers Running Club, he's going to go do it next year, OK.

And there's a couple other people or at least one person.

27:58

And I know Jill, she does it every year.

I have a good friend that does it every year.

And yeah, so I did it.

I can't remember the year off the top of my head.

It must have been like 2013.

I don't know, but I did it with my dad and my sister-in-law and brother-in-law live out there.

So it was really nice.

28:13

Like we got to like they drove me to the metro super easy, you know, and it's just like you said, very well organized.

The weather we the year we did, it was great.

And yeah, it's hard to you.

You are suffering and you're like looking around, there's all these, you know, men and women in uniform.

And so it's just really so inspirational.

28:31

Yeah, there were a few things like that.

They were inspiration to that.

And I had not to be my first marathon.

I hadn't been in with, you know, the rollers and to see, you know, those folks trying to get up like some of those hills, like in Georgetown.

And I'll never forget, I was struggling to get up and someone went to push him.

He's like, no, like I got this, like I got this.

So that going by all the, you know, beautiful sights in the DC area.

28:49

And then I have a good friend of mine who's about 10 years older than me.

He's run his whole life, who I worked with, who lives out there.

So kind of like what you're talking about.

And he said, Hey, I'm going to be out there cheering for you.

Like you don't have to do that.

And he goes, no, I'll be there.

So about mile 20, he said, I'll be around mile 20.

I look up and I hear somebody on my name.

29:05

He's standing on top of like the cement base of a light pole.

And it's a beautiful day.

It snowed the night before, real light.

And it was beautiful sunny day.

And he jumped in.

He goes, do you mind if I run with you for a while?

And I'm like, this is awesome.

No, So he ran a mile 2 with me and he's like, you're the luckiest man alive.

29:20

The sun is shining, you're trained up.

So we got to about mile like 20, maybe 22.

And he goes, I'm going to depart now because these last few miles is a marathoner needs to be between you and figuring it out, you know, have a good time.

So it was so cool.

And one of the pictures that the race had taken was he and I just happened to be coincidence.

29:39

We're running together and I've got that frame too, because it was it meant so much to me because he kind of not kind of he mentored me in my first few years, you know, trying to figure this running thing out.

That's and still stays in touch with me.

If I post a something about a race I'm in, he'll go.

I'm so proud, you know, keep going.

Oh.

That's so nice.

29:54

I had a Co worker come out and I hadn't seen her in years and she's like you're going to be there, I'll be there.

That's so nice.

So she took some pictures, too, of me and my husband hugging, like one of my favorite pictures of him, like supporting me at a race.

And then, yeah, they, we were, I forget what part of the race this is where they could like cross the park and like, see me twice.

30:12

Yes, my wife did that.

Yeah, which is really, really cool.

And yeah, I also remember, it's funny the things you remember about races, but because I told you I have a bad memory, but I remember somebody was handing out doughnut holes at like mile 23, and I tell you, that's the best donut all I've ever had.

I bet it was because it reminds me when I was about that same mile somebody was handed, because it's in October, right?

30:31

And they were handing out Halloween candy and I didn't know these people.

And I'm like, yeah, just there could be.

Whatever you got, don't.

Hold, but you know I don't care.

I think something because I don't know if I'm going to make it right.

Yeah, it's kind.

Of funny, some of the things you just like.

OK, great.

So if you ever spectate a marathon, like now, I always try to bring something if I'm spectating.

30:47

Oh, it's a good idea.

Like a bag of pretzels that we'll talk about New York later, but that was my New York thing, so wow.

OK.

Your first marathon 2011, you said OK, and then from there you just started doing them.

Yeah, so I did.

31:03

So then it was like, well, I can maybe do one or two of these a year and I continue to do halves.

I was one of those guys when the halves come along as you know and some of your listeners, you know you've got at the beginning of spring the mini and Sam Costa and used to Geist was early on.

So I'd sign up for all those like just to go through all those.

31:20

So I continue to do that.

And then I know I did the Carmel Marathon a couple times.

I think I did the, I did the, it's the one in Columbus IN the mill race.

I did that first year they did that.

So I think that that was actually my second marathon and I went down there on my own and I did.

31:37

It was really hot.

It was really humid.

I had a bad day.

Like I went from like 4 1/2 hours in the Marine Corps to like a year later, 5 1/2 hours.

I got done and told my wife, I'm never running again.

She said you're done with marathons.

I go, no, I'm just done running.

Like that was miserable.

I'm never ever doing this again.

31:53

How many of us have said that?

And then like.

Two days later, I was running again, right?

But it was like I was at the halfway point going.

I just going to get in the van and go, right?

Like I don't need to finish this.

They can sweep me up.

This is miserable.

But then I'd go, I'll go another mile, I'll go another mile.

And it was a very humbling experience.

32:10

Yeah, my first couple marathons were five hours.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.

Right, of course.

But it was just like, I don't know.

I just didn't train.

You know, the training back then for me was like Hal Higdon.

Yeah, great, great plan, but that's it.

32:25

And I would go out every time and just run as you know, just run for as fast as I could for.

Whatever mileage I read the book, I read his book, right?

And it was like, OK, and then, you know, so I would be at the end, I would try to go and bank the time, right?

It's like, OK, got money in the bank.

32:41

I got money in the bank.

I got some seconds to kill.

So that way if I slow down, right?

And now the entire race strategy that I use thanks to my coach Rachel, is the opposite of that, which is just mind blowing to me.

So yeah, I mean, it just goes to show and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the time, of course.

32:57

No, no, it's just like I didn't do it right.

No, I didn't do it right and it's because I'll I still get caught up sometimes in banking the time I know it's completely wasting, but like, but maybe today's the day, right?

Like how do I know?

Like this could be the day.

Right, like if I just have a few, I know it's so hard not to be like, oh wow, I just ran this cool.

33:16

Well, if I, you know, need to have a slow mile later, but yeah, it's it's hard.

It's hard not to do that.

But yeah, the whole idea of, you know, the negative split, I used to think that's for the elites.

You know, I could never do that.

And now, gosh, it feels good when you can do it.

33:31

Yeah, I can celebrate when I can do that, do it the right way.

It just feel and it's not every race.

No, no, not for me, that's for sure.

Yeah, not for me either.

So yeah.

So we talked already a little bit about your giving back, talk about how you went from, you know, getting involved in the running community and doing these races to then finding the whole giving back.

33:53

Part of it.

So actually, so I started running in January 2010 and I quit drinking in February 2009.

And so there's a tie in there.

OK, there is, yes, I was wondering, I was curious about.

That yeah.

So I, yeah, I've not had a drink for 15 1/2 years now, decided that was not for me.

34:12

It had it been a problem for me throughout my life, you know, everything from getting arrested back when I was in college and spending, you know, weekend in jail for drinking and driving to relationship problems, married and divorced, you know, relationship with my daughters, you know, going South for a while.

34:32

And you know, even through all that, it still wasn't, you would think, well, yeah.

Isn't that enough it?

Still wasn't and it was in 2009 when I was out drinking and my family knew that my extended family sent my brother-in-law out looking for me and I forget and he showed up, they found me and he goes, hey man, I'm taking you home and I'm like, well, I'm drinking.

34:51

He goes, I'll have a drink with you, but I'm still taking you home.

And I woke up that next morning and was like, I can't like this in a search party out for me now.

Why?

That's what it took.

And I think it's probably all those things, right?

But why wasn't it the arrest in college, like the arrest in college, I had my friends and my roommates were waiting for me when I got out of jail after the weekend and we had a keg right like it.

35:12

So that didn't do it.

But the sending out somebody look for me, you know, at age 40, what was that?

44 is like?

No, you're 43.

I can't do that anymore.

So I, I should go back.

I, I tried quit drinking back in like 9091 and did that for a while and, and found a church and got real involved with the church, but kind of shut stepped away from some of the stuff I was doing, not falling out, everything I'd learned.

35:39

So I started drinking again in 97 and went at it like just took off where I left off like they say you will.

So it was 97 to 2009 where it was still, it wasn't a good situation.

So when I that's the time I think I find that the mental health break part of my mental health routine is running now and that, and I know you've talked to other folks on here and just, it's not uncommon for people maybe have addiction issues to end up in endurance events kind of take place takes the place of that seeking that high or whatever you're looking.

36:13

For definitely a strong theme, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so through that and through my recovery was like, you know, you've taken from people from like decades, like you need to start giving back.

And so I think that's why I first got involved with American Cancer Society when we started running.

36:28

And then, you know, just over time, I read a book by an author named Bob Goff.

He wrote a book called Loves Does.

Love does.

And even though I was, I'd spent a lot of time in church and read the Bible a bunch of times and LED Bible studies and stuff, still wasn't being the person I wanted to be.

36:44

And when I read that book, he summarized one of my models a day, said, hey, here's what Christian ought to be about.

Love God, do stuff.

Just love God, do stuff.

And it was like, I get that.

Like, yeah, yeah, I just.

And so I look for stuff to do.

36:59

And sometimes people say, what do you think you're doing too much stuff?

And I'm like, I, you know, I try to make sure it's not about me, but that giving back is a huge part of my recovery.

Wow, that's, that's really amazing to be in your recovery.

That self-awareness of like, I've been taking like, and now I'm going to give.

37:19

Yeah.

At what point in this journey did Jennifer have her battle with cancer?

So this is before I ever knew Jennifer.

So yeah.

So I was married previously and Jennifer, Jennifer and I have been married now 12 years.

She's she had her, she was she's a young cancer as far so she was in her mid 30s.

37:36

Wow.

And so fortunately for her was breast cancer, caught it early, did surgery, went through chemo and she's, you know, each, you know, goes back to our oncologist annually now.

And yeah, hopes things.

Look, in fact, she was just there recently.

So still going strong.

That's great.

37:52

Yeah.

Wow, Yeah.

That's scary.

So young.

Yeah.

Yeah.

OK.

So you weren't.

Yeah, I was just picturing like how hard that would be to be going through cancer treatments and stuff if you still hadn't been in recovery.

Yeah, so but that was that was before so.

38:08

So talk about the stuff that you found, like you mentioned, American Cancer Society.

So I did the American Cancer Society for a while, and then their program changed a little bit and I was like, I don't know if I want to keep doing this.

It became more like big races and big fundraising and I wasn't sure I was up for that.

And so at a race, you know, where, you know, at a boost as you go by the Expo hall, found saw this card about back on my feet.

38:30

And it's like what's back on my feet?

Oh, well, it's, you know, this program where we run with men and women and try to help them build self esteem through, you know, helping them find jobs and housing and, you know, run with them.

I'm like, well, maybe I'll try this out and give this a try.

And it was awesome.

I started running.

38:46

This was 11 years ago now with, there were two teams in Indianapolis the time, one at Wheeler Mission and one at Who's Your Veterans Assistance Foundation.

And so I ran with the, the veterans at Who's Your Veterans and, you know, just showed up.

I'll never forget it.

You show up the 1st morning and you're looking around the circle, as we know, as runners, right?

39:04

You're all dressed in your running gear and you're going like which people are in the program or which are volunteers because we're all alike.

And that's the cool thing, right?

Because you don't know, because we all like went out there running and it was neat.

A lot of those men, primarily men, there were few women were also in recovery.

39:19

And so I start as I was able to get to know them and share my story, I was able to work with them outside of just back on my feet and in terms of their recovery as well.

So and then you we would train for races and you know, train for, you know, I've helped, you know, guys cross the line at half marathon, right?

39:35

There's in fact, I've thought about that a lot recently.

Like, you know, my joy running, I don't want to lose that.

Where did I get the most joy?

And I think it was helping people who've never done it before, right?

That's really cool.

And I know you've done that.

That smile that someone has on their face is it's hard to forget.

39:51

Right yeah I think I've started looking for ways to running has given me so much Yeah I've started looking for ways to give back to running by, you know, like what you've said either, you know, helping people or I got to push at the the mini this year for Ainsley's angels and.

40:08

I'm pacing for the first time later this month and so just trying to find find things like that.

I we would have met 11 years ago if I'd have ever gone it back on my feet.

I knew about it and a couple of my girlfriends I think would had gone a couple times, but I never did.

40:25

And I regret that now because it's just what a cool program.

Well, and I think the biggest obstacle for people getting involved, because we would run three times a week at 5:45 in the morning downtown Annapolis.

So I would meet someone who runs.

It's back on my feet.

Tell me more and you start getting on that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm in.

40:41

I'm in.

Yeah.

What do you run 545?

Yeah, right.

Can I write you a check?

Yeah, exactly.

Can I give you a high five when I see you at a race like that was part of it was definitely the the idea of getting my ass downtown.

All the way downtown.

Yeah, I was in Broad Ripple at the time, so it wouldn't have been horrible.

40:58

But it's still hard and it's, and the, you know, people ask a lot of people, well, why?

And it's because the, the idea is and these folks are going back and they're going, a lot of them are going to work or, you know, some type of recovery.

And so it's just a good, good practice to have.

And the, and the neat thing about that, besides what I've shared already and seeing people's lives change and some people you solve would fall out and, you know, things didn't go well because that's, that's life.

41:20

But the volunteers, so you had people from their 20s all the way up to their 70s all out there for the same thing.

And I like that.

I like my network of friends being across a bunch of age groups and not just everybody my age.

And so now we're time a lot of us volunteers that, you know, got to know each other, then, you know, we've seen people get married, have babies destined their family.

41:40

Like it's a close knit group.

Bunch of us are getting together this Friday night.

And just that, that's one of the neat parts of it too, was just the, the and, and if someone's showing up at 5:45 to volunteer, they're not looking for something to put on their resume, you know, like they're, there's a lot of things you can put on your resume.

41:56

Actually like running as well.

Yeah, you can find something else that would be a lot, Totally, yeah.

Volunteer after work or on the weekend.

Yeah, that's not at 5:40 45 downtown in the dark.

And yeah, and that's where you met Timmy Howard.

Is that what you're talking about this Friday?

This will come out the Friday after this Friday.

42:15

So people will be now hearing about this in retrospect, but they should go on YouTube and and watch Timmye film in just a miles.

But when was the first time you met Timmy?

Yeah.

So it would have, gosh, probably been about the time that he started he, he ran with a program at Wheeler and I ran at, like I said, who's your veterans?

42:31

But there were more some mornings where we'd run together or then we'd go to events together.

OK.

So I knew of him and met him through probably some of those morning runs where we ran, ran together.

Yeah.

And yeah, incredible story.

And I would encourage anybody, if they can come out or like you said, be afterwards to go back and look at the YouTube video because it's so good.

42:49

Yeah, I've seen it before.

I know you and I were together.

I was like, hey, Jim, how do you know Tim?

And that's.

That's what I learned that you were in recovery as well.

We got to drink some athletic brewing tea here, which is.

I love.

It's now something I usually have in my fridge.

OK.

Yeah.

Yeah.

43:04

But yeah, inches to miles.

Go on YouTube and watch that.

It's so great.

Yeah.

Timmy's episode was incredible.

He was.

Yeah.

On heroin.

And then he was also homeless.

And then he found back on my feet.

And that's a big part of his recovery journey, so.

And.

It's been neat to see guys like that.

There's another guy, Wes Dodie.

43:21

You might know Wes, but Wes, I think.

I've heard of yeah.

Somebody talked to sometime.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But went through the program as well and he went through Who's Your veterans about the same time Timmy was going through.

I can't remember the overlap because I have a bad memory too, but Wes, incredible, some very similar story like, but he didn't know he had this gift for running.

43:38

And so we show up to Carmel, he's going to run the half and, you know, we're waiting for him to finish.

And here he comes and he's got on a, you know, like a Basketball Jersey and his hat on backwards and, you know, probably not the best running shoes in the world.

I don't know.

And he's like in the top seven or eight.

43:54

It's first half marathon.

Everybody's going he was this guy, right?

And he finishes and he goes Jim, he goes, that was awesome.

And I go Wes, that was incredible.

He goes, I want to run faster and I go, Wes, you've run out of people that can help you in this group.

Like we got to find you, you know, somebody faster.

And so he got involved with PBT and he's qualified for Boston.

44:12

But again, and the cool thing that's amazing story, just like Timmy's is the cool thing about Wes is he also re established, you know, relationship with his daughter, young daughter.

And to see him post pictures of the two of them together now like the running's cool, right?

But that's really.

You can't replace Yeah, those relationships.

44:29

And how old are your girls now?

My girls are 28 and 31.

OK, because you have two girls like I do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yep, Yeah, both married as you mentioned, first grandchild five months ago.

Yeah, Nina.

Sweet Nina, sweet Nina.

Oh, she's so cute.

I think so, but I'm biased.

It's nice that you guys get you and Jennifer get to spend time taking care of her.

44:47

Yeah, it's, it is very nice.

Brooklyn, my daughter, she's kind of a Long story short, she, the child care actually through Carmel schools will start for her, for Nina, the Tuesday after Labor Day.

She was in another program, didn't work out.

And so she's needed some substitutes the last couple weeks.

45:04

And like last Friday, I had a Wellness day at work.

What better way to do Wellness?

I'm like, sign me out.

I'll spend the day with her.

So it's awesome.

Yeah, I had a similar, well, not a similar thing in that I had something that didn't work out.

We just in Carmel, we had there was a wait.

And so I was really lucky that my parents and my in laws are local.

45:22

They like divided up the days and so until we could get city, my older one into daycare, my parents and my husband's parents helped.

That's nice.

And they.

I mean, yeah.

Oh, love it.

Right.

We're all fighting over like, well, you can't do that day because I already got that.

I got it.

What do you mean you got that?

Yeah, right.

45:39

So lucky.

So, so lucky.

So, yeah, all right.

And then you, you were in back on my feet.

How did you end up getting involved in the Drumstick Dash?

So perfect tie in.

So guy named Steve Kerr, who started the drumstick dash was also a volunteer at back on my feet with me at Who's your Veterans Assistance Foundation.

45:58

And so I got to know Steve and realized he was part of the drumstick dash and I drumstick dash.

So I said, I'm going to give this a try, right?

And so I did that with I think the first couple first year I did it, I said to all my nieces and nephews.

So I have, as you mentioned, we already talked about two daughters, have 7 nieces and nephews.

46:15

We're getting together for Thanksgiving.

And I said, hey, look, out of all you guys, I've been running a couple years, all you guys that come, Uncle Jim will pay for your registration to do this race.

You can walk it, you can run it.

Whoever wants to come join me.

And so like seven of them took me up on it.

Some ran and some walked.

And I'll never forget going to my mom and dad.

46:33

I said, hey, you want to do this?

And my dad goes, do I get a shirt?

And I go, yeah, you get a shirt.

And he goes, OK, I'll do it because he.

That's so funny.

He'd never done a race.

Swimming before Do I get something?

And so we did that and it just became a tradition and we would have Thanksgiving later in the day.

Gosh, my so then it grew from family to extended family.

46:51

In fact, Mike, your brother in law's parents, you know John and Dana, they got involved and in fact Mike and Morgan and the number of them have either done it the morning of together in Broad Ripple or I've done it virtually.

In the last couple years.

And it grew to where I was asked to be on the board at Drumstick Dash.

47:09

So I'm a board member there.

And it's just it, it back on my feet has always been part of that as well, because it's the same group of people that Drumstick Dash is all about.

So it was a really, really nice tie in.

And right, yeah, move your is it, Move your feet so others can eat.

Exactly.

And everything goes to Wheeler.

47:25

Everything goes to Wheeler 100% and so gosh, there's been years, you know, I think this last year was over $1,000,000 and that went straight back to Wheeler.

So over $1,000,000, yeah.

Big deal because of all the sponsors they get too, they cover the expenses and it's you know, there's AI think it's 4.6 mile run and maybe a 2 1/2 mile walk.

47:43

Yeah, it was going to.

Drop you know, it's it's I think this year was 1617 thousand runners.

It peaked preco, but it was around 20,000.

But that was even getting kind of big for the streets of Broad Ripple.

Huge.

Yeah, huge.

I've done it a few times more when we, I think I've come back once, maybe after we moved up to Carmel to do it because when we lived in Broderpal, it was, I mean, it was so close to where we live, but it was like hard to, to not do it.

48:09

Yeah, it's just, it's it's just really cool to get up in the morning and do that and then go celebrate Thanksgiving.

So, you know, we got a lot of things.

To be careful for Yeah, a previous guest of this podcast, Rob Mullet, he went, he won it before.

So he, you know, different than you and I going out there jogging around the drumstick dash.

48:26

But yeah, that's really cool.

So how long have you been on the board then?

On the board for about three or four years.

Three or four years.

Okay, Yeah, that's really cool.

And then I'm also an ambassador, in fact, and again this year where you try to get people to sign up and, you know, promote the race.

And that's always been important to me too.

48:42

So I spent a lot of time, you know, with the running clubs trying to get people involved.

And there are a lot of other races that have popped up on Thanksgiving since the Drumstick Dash started.

And they're all great causes.

Like, I mean, as you know, a lot of races have good causes now, but it's been neat to be able to maintain that many people, you know, even did COVID, you know, run it, ran it virtually.

49:02

But and, and to do it in Broad Ripple, it's just, it's perfect, right?

Like people just often.

Why don't you move, go somewhere, you know, go downtown.

It's just.

It's different.

The tradition of it is is really cool.

Yeah, yeah.

There's got to be just so many families that like, that's, that's what.

They do, yeah.

And we've had the manoeuvre around, you know, bus lines and construction.

49:20

It's got to be interesting.

So it's been good to work.

You know, we figured out that of course changes a little bit.

People go why 4.6 miles?

Like that's a weird and it's like whatever space we have.

And so some people like it because it's so unique, right?

Like where do you go run 4.6 miles?

Nowhere else.

49:35

Yeah, right.

So that's your PR for 4.6 mile rates every year?

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, it's magical, especially when the weather, those fall mornings, which we're finally getting a little taste of fall weather, finally.

Oh, yeah, This morning definitely feels like fall.

Yeah.

But I can remember one year, you know, in fact, I thought about this, you know, because you.

49:53

What are some of your best moments in running?

One year, my daughter, my youngest daughter and I run in the Drumstick Dash.

And it started to snow.

And it was it was just enough that it was beautiful.

And you're running and you're kind of laughing.

Going like, this is crazy.

Like, what are we doing out here?

Yeah.

So just you know those.

Those magical we're like, oh, I feel like I'm running in a snow globe.

50:11

Yeah, you remember that?

You don't care what your time was.

Yeah.

Right.

Exactly.

Yeah, totally.

This podcast brought to you by Athlete Bouquets.

Celebrate those that you love crossing their own personal finish lines and milestones by visiting athletebouquets.com.

50:28

Personalized gifts for those in your life doing incredible things.

So so you have OK, American Cancer Society back on my feet, Drumstick dash that supports Wheeler Mission American Cancer Society, we said.

And then you're also a big bro, right, With Big Brothers, Big Sisters and Jennifer, you mentioned had been involved.

50:48

You've been done that as a couple before too.

Talk a little bit about that experience.

Sure.

So seven years ago, we decided Jennifer had never had children and is a great stepmom to to to my girls was kind of like, you know, I want to leave some type of legacy.

51:03

And I'm like, well, you've got a legacy.

You've done all that.

She's done a lot of work with cancer survivors, you know, young women that, you know, struggle were diagnosed like she was.

And she said, I don't know, you know, maybe we could think about fostering a child or should we do Big Brothers?

And so there was a small group from our church.

51:20

We were talking about this one morning, one evening, and they're like, what are you waiting on?

And we're like, well, yeah, I don't know.

Somebody to like make me do?

I don't know.

Yeah, good question.

So we reached out to Big Brothers, Big Sisters and and as they should, extensive background check, tons of references, couple hour interview as a couple, you know, going back through everything that's gone on through your life.

51:43

And we got matched with seven years ago with about the same time I officiated Katie's wedding because that's why I associate the two with a young man named Booga Shane.

He goes by Shane.

He goes by Shane, OK.

He and his family were refugees from originally from the Congo.

51:59

The Congo.

OK, I was going to say Bugashane.

What the?

Album They had lived in Malawi for seven years in a tent, just through a lot of strife that had gone on the Congo.

They had to escape.

So this was seven years ago.

We got mashed with Bugashane and it was an incredible experience.

I mean, a great family is a lot of families that are part of Big Brothers, Big Sisters.

52:19

It's the not intact family.

There's was his dad was smart enough to say, gosh, you know, imagine being plopped down in the United States like almost like a another planet and say, go figure this out.

And so he was like, well, I'm going to find programs like this where my kids can be exposed Everything dad worked at the time.

52:37

Dad worked nights and mom during the day and incredible just the stuff we got to do.

So Jennifer, an idea that is a lot of people don't realize.

I don't know of other places other than Indiana where they do a big couple.

So big couple can be husband and wife, sister, two sisters, two coworkers interesting.

52:56

And and the cool thing about it is like maybe if one of you gets too busy to go something, do something one day, the other one can or maybe you have interest as a significant other that I don't have.

Once you go to the Art Museum with her and you and I'll go to the football game or what have you and interesting, very cool something we could do together.

53:12

And now Booga Shane is starting a sophomore year at Purdue and we still stay in touch with him.

You you graduate out after high school but still stay in touch with.

OK, I didn't realize that.

Yeah, with him and the family, he went from, you know, trying to figure out the language.

53:27

I was going to ask how their English was because that seems like that'd be so hard.

Yeah, and there's just some other challenges you had in school with learning challenges to like seeing him at Purdue is like in totally incredible.

And my wife spent a lot of time outside of the Big Brothers Big Sisters program tutoring him.

53:46

Like realized, hey, here's some some of the deficiencies in reading.

We're going to work on this.

Totally rewarding.

Yeah, totally rewarding.

So then when he graduated, we said, well, we don't do this again because how could we ever have such a great match again?

And I said, yeah, we don't want to do this again.

And then I went to an event where they were trying to, it was at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway about a year and a half ago trying to get a bunch of new matches and went to this media event.

54:09

I'm like, why aren't I doing this again?

Like I really don't have a reason.

And yeah, it's not going to be the same, but the same doesn't mean it's going to be bad.

Never be the same.

And so I said, Jennifer, I think I want to do this again.

She said go for it.

She said, I think I'll sit this one.

Now I'm trying to figure out those things I want to get involved with.

54:26

So now I'm matched with a young man named Kaden who lives up in Westfield.

And we've been matched.

It's hard to believe it'll be a year in September.

And still he's a freshman, so still trying to figure each other out, you know, because teenagers are, you know, how am I going to hang out with a guy?

54:42

And I forget that I am 59.

So I like, who's this old guy?

I remember when we first got matched with Bugasheen, He goes, you guys are how old?

And we said, like, 5251.

He's like, that's really old.

And I'm like, yeah, I guess it kind of is.

Yeah, cool things.

We'll still hang out with you.

But everybody needs a grandpa.

Yeah, yeah, that's what well, I've seen pictures on Facebook of all the different things that you do with Kaden.

55:04

Yeah, it's, it's, it's like a lot of things, right as you notice you get involved in that, you get as much or more than the person you're.

Working with absolutely.

And just, you know, figuring out, you know, what he wants to do and what he likes and whatever role I can play in, you know, helping out with that.

But again, it's just a a great way to get back and, you know, plug for Big Brothers Big Sisters.

55:22

I mean, there are over 1000 kids on the waiting list every day trying to get matched.

Yeah.

And it's not it's, you know, the commitment is, you know, try to get together twice a month for, you know, like a couple hours each time.

And they provide so many activities.

If you said, hey, look, I don't I don't want to spend any money on this.

55:40

They provide enough activities that you could get by with almost not spending any money.

I mean, we do some things outside of that, right, Like going to a ball game or what have you.

It's just tons of activities.

They're so connected, so.

That's really cool.

Yeah, people can look into that too.

That'd be.

Cool.

55:55

Yeah.

Gosh, you do a lot, Jim.

Yeah, it keeps me out of.

I like to tell people it keeps me out of trouble.

Yeah, when people tell me I ran, run too much, I say it keeps me off the streets.

And then I kind of laugh and go, not really because I'm out on the streets, but.

Yeah, wow.

And now you're in the process of training and fundraising for the American Cancer Society for the New York City Marathon, right?

56:19

And you and I were chatting before this, your damn hips causing your.

Problems.

Yeah, I got a few.

Are we allowed to talk about that?

Sure, sure.

We OK.

Because I, you know, if you don't want to, No, if you're such a guy, right?

Because I'm in denial sometimes.

Well, right, sometimes we see on social media, hey, look, all these great things are going on and all these great times and these great races are great, but as you know, running's not always that way.

56:38

There's some tough times, too.

So yeah, I've been in physical therapy for about 6 to 8 weeks and it's getting stronger.

But you know, we'll see.

Need to probably get it checked out a little bit further.

But yeah, plan.

I've always wanted to New York.

Some of your listeners may know and some don't.

56:55

It's tough to get into, you know, just through the lottery.

Didn't get in.

And so decided to fundraise.

I fundraised.

I've done.

I fundraised Chicago for Back on My Feet one year and American Cancer Society one year, and so this year doing American Cancer Society in New York.

Yeah, it's a magical race.

57:12

You and I were.

We already talked about it a little bit this morning, but yeah, it's there's, I don't know that I'll do it again.

Never say never, but I did it.

I my one of my best running friends, Ashley Schwab, who's been on this podcast, she is the one who pushed with me at the Mini, but she was doing it and I'm in, a couple of my other girlfriends are doing it.

57:31

And I'm like, OK, this is my year to do it.

Then if my running friends are going, I've got to go.

And so we did it for Alex's lemonade stand.

And so that's an organization for kids with cancer.

And so it's like, yeah, what better, What better motivation, you know?

And and then two of my girlfriends had to defer, but I ended up running with my in training mostly by myself actually for that race.

57:55

Ashley was way too fast for me at that time.

And yeah, New York is just is awesome.

I remember training, I used my Peloton treadmill to do a lot of the hill stuff because they had classes with incline.

That's really all I did for the hill hill stuff.

And then thankfully, somebody told me, I think like literally at the Expo.

58:14

Hey, by the way, yeah, Central Park.

When you get into Central Park, it's really hilly.

Yes.

I had no clue.

I was worried about the bridges only.

That's all I knew.

Someone else reminded me that recently they said don't forget how hilly Central Park.

Is right, because when I've, whenever I've gone to New York, I used to go for work and I would run in Central Park.

58:30

I ran, I ran in the flat part.

Yes, it's a few months.

So I was like, where are the hills?

What do you mean?

You and I were both the same.

I'm like, no, I I really enjoyed running through.

Something.

Yeah, it's great.

It's beautiful.

Nice flat, lots of shade, which if I recall, yeah, it's all shaded, but it's, yeah, the rolling hills, man.

58:47

It's funny you say that.

I have a good friend of mine who was just there a couple of months ago, high, less than 68, and he texted me one morning and he said, hey, Jim, I know you're doing New York.

I'm running through Central Park this morning.

It's a reminder.

It's very hilly.

So that was to say.

Where are you?

Like where?

In Central Park, I like literally probably only ran in this one tiny pocket because I would always stay kind of in the same same place.

59:06

So yeah.

But yeah, at that point, you know, you've done the bridges.

The bridges are much longer.

But yeah, the bridges for me, I mean, Queensboro Bridge, people always talked about how that was horrible.

And I was like, done and dusted, like that didn't bother me.

59:23

And the hills in Central Park did.

But at that time, my, my legs, you know, you kind of crave that change in elevation.

That's what I tell myself.

Sure, this is good this.

Is great for the lakes and in Central Park and really a lot of places outside of the bridges.

It's just spectators, just so many.

59:39

Yeah, well, as you know, right here, around here, I mean, we, I tell people in central IN if we go up a curb, right, we say that's a hill, right?

We're playing the elevation.

So Cool Creek Park, N Cool Creek North Park.

I spend a lot of time in getting ready for Mesa cause at Mesa though, pretty Mesa's kind of a gradual descent.

59:55

But the first you go 2 miles in and then it's uphill quite a bit for like a mile and then down.

So I spent a lot of time out there.

And that was, you know, quite helpful, but I too defer.

I deferred New York.

I was supposed to do it last year, OK, And when I Carmel last year was my all in to break 4 hours and I went like four O 4 and thought, gosh, if I'm going to New York to do, I can't PR in New York.

1:00:17

So my running coach.

So I want you to defer to a year if you can and train for Mesa for the following year.

So that's what I did.

So that's, yeah, that's what I end.

Up.

Yeah, going to like yeah, get your sub four in New York would be yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was yeah.

That was it was before.

That was my first was it my first full marathon after kids?

1:00:34

Yes.

It was my first full marathon after Sydney was born.

And so it was kind of my like comeback marathon.

Like I'm a mom.

I can still do this, but I still I didn't have a code.

I was still was training the way that I had used to.

So when I was done, I went to the medical tent.

It was bad.

I was just like, I gave it too much, but not in a good way.

1:00:53

It was just like, yeah.

I don't know how you I mean, I so a lot of my running friends are young moms or have young kids, I should say, and a young moms both.

I when I look back, because I started running when my kids were older.

I can't I kudos to how you pull that off.

1:01:09

Like I know you do it.

They you know, they're running at 4:45 in the morning to get the kids on the bus at six.

Yeah, incredible.

Yeah, I'm lucky that yeah, I don't have to do the 445 thing, but it's still hard because, you know, after a day, this is the first time.

No, not the first time.

1:01:24

I did monumental a couple years ago after I had my second daughter.

OK.

But now it's like, you know, so this will be my second.

I'm training for Monumental now.

It'll be my second full marathon after kids.

And it's, you know, you just, it's it's you have to be a parent.

Yeah, you know, the run is hard, but like getting the run in is nothing.

1:01:41

It's the parenting while you're have having to recover from that long run that's the hard part.

And flexing like, you know what, I wanted to go at this time, but I have a school event, so I'm going to have to figure out another time.

And life's going to go on and I'll be all right.

But yeah, at the time it's like, yeah, yeah.

It's, it's, it's wild, but you know, as you know, you mentioned it being the mental health, you know, an aspect for you.

1:02:02

That's obviously a big piece of it for me.

And a lot of it is just to be by myself, which I am by myself, a lot like doing work throughout the day.

But the being by yourself on a run, you know it's different.

Yeah, and I think that, you know, because I do run.

I was somebody who used to always run by myself, then I got in the running clubs.

1:02:19

But I think there are time and I have a small group of folks that I run with a lot of now on Saturdays.

There are times that helped me this last marathon to train by myself.

It's great to have somebody with you to go 18 miles.

Yeah, but also it's times.

It's great to figure that out on your own maybe.

And like maybe you don't want to, you can still hit the pace you want to over 18 miles.

1:02:38

But if you're running with a group and if they're going a little bit faster than you want to, you just kind of got to figure out yourself.

So it's probably though I didn't enjoy it as much because I love the social aspect.

I think I learned a lot about myself by running by myself.

Yeah.

And how am I going to get through this on race day?

Yeah, right.

Yeah, I, I agree.

1:02:54

Well, and I was, I'm not planning to run with anybody else too.

So it's like when I don't.

Run yeah when you do.

The race, although this year, last year when I had my half marathon PR, my friend Ashley Haynes came.

She was running the full and she paced me for the first, what is it like 7 miles or so when the half and the full are together and it was amazing.

1:03:13

Sure.

And so this year for the full, I'm going for APR, which for me should be like easy now that I've been training the right way and I've PRD in the half.

And so I was like, you want to want to pace me, you know, So I don't know how that'll it's just interesting to we'd never, I don't know if we'd ever run together when she paced me in the race and I was just kind of like, let's see how it goes.

1:03:35

I could always be like, hey, I gotta like get out of here.

And you know, she could always drop me if she wanted, which she never would.

But so that'll be interesting.

Yeah, now I have some friends that way that if we do run a race together, there's been a few.

It's hey, the deal is if one of us feels better and say hey, good, just go, right.

1:03:51

That you don't say, Oh no, I'm not no go.

Just do it.

Yeah, that's a good agreement to have up front.

Yeah.

It's like the race.

Is not every year.

Every day is not your day.

Right.

Yeah.

And the feeling like if you're already feeling bad and need to slow down, the last thing you want is like this guilt of your friend and being there with you when you're like, no, I want you.

1:04:08

I want you to go get your race.

That happened to meet the mini this year so I was doing the mini for fun.

Didn't sign up till two weeks before running with a couple of friends of mine that I run with all the time, Say we're just going to do it for fun.

So we did, we kissed the bricks.

We did all those things that I've not always done.

But that morning I woke up late, didn't go through my routine, forgot my gels, like everything you shouldn't do.

1:04:28

But I'm like, I'm just doing this for fun.

And about six or seven miles in, it wasn't fun anymore.

And we got to the track and I said, we got off the track.

You guys go and they go, no, Jim, we're doing this for fun.

And I said, look, I'm going to be mad if you don't go because I got to figure out between now and in this race how I'm going to do this.

1:04:46

And so it was a very humbling reminder of you don't just.

And I looked at the running gods and said, shame on me for disrespecting you.

I will not do this again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know my my husband.

1:05:02

I don't know if he'll do.

I'm sure he will by the time next year rolls around.

Do the mini.

But he like afterwards, he was so miserable.

He told me he didn't eat breakfast.

And I was like, yeah, you're already testing the runner gods by not training right now.

You're gonna not eat.

1:05:17

And it was hot.

I was like, are you insane?

I did.

Everything wrong, all that stuff that I know way better.

Like I told you at the beginning of this, all these things I do that are right, I didn't do them right that day.

Right.

You're just like, oh, it's just I've done this plenty of times.

It'll be fine.

Yeah, yeah, I know.

Well, it's hard because then if there's a day where you like, forget to do something, then you're like the mental aspect of being like getting over that can be hard.

1:05:36

I'm going to get through that.

Right, right.

But you know.

You mentioned that about your husband.

So I, you know, when I first started running, it was half marathons and I would get home and my wife would say, what can I do for you?

Do you need a blanket?

Here's something to drink.

And then when I started training for my first marathon, now we come in on a Saturday morning, she would say, how far did you go?

And I got like 16 today.

1:05:52

And she goes, you know, like, no more babying you after half marathon.

Like if you can go out and run 16 or 17 on a Saturday, you don't need my help after half.

Oh no, don't come back.

Yeah, wait a minute.

So now she's yeah, it's just, oh, it's a half you've.

1:06:08

You've got this gym that's, you know, great job.

Yeah.

It's funny, my neighbors 2 doors down or this just wonderful couple, they have older kids and so and he he runs, she doesn't run.

She'll she'll run some.

But Dwayne, my neighbor is a big marathoner.

And every time I have a race, she'll text me and be like, OK, Dwayne wants to know what to make you.

1:06:29

And she'll be like, would you like lobster Mac and cheese or a brat, like a cake, you know?

And they're just so sweet.

And then I said, Cindy, you got to tell Dwayne I'm running, like, four half marathons this spring.

Like, he does not have to make me something every time.

But it's the nicest thing because even if it's in quotation marks, just 1/2 you and I both know.

1:06:49

And this is not a knock on Jennifer.

Believe me, my husband is the same way.

But it's like, it's still, you still are.

Like it's still.

Yeah, you know, it's.

Still a big thing.

Sure.

So it's so sweet they do that for me.

I love it.

No, please.

Don't stop.

No, it's awesome.

I have the group of so I have a group of friends.

1:07:05

Actually, it's five women that I run with mostly.

So my wife gives, you know, people go, Jennifer, are you OK?

You're running like she's running with five women that are in their late 30s, early 40s.

And she's always like, well, I guess a man who's 59 and a woman who's 38.

Their paces are similar.

But I I've made sure that I've got to know their husbands, right?

1:07:22

You're like, they know Jennifer.

So we're all friends.

We do things socially, but you know that that group, I mean, we're, you know, I, I've always supported each other, right?

We went, one couple went out when I went to Mesa for the half marathon or one of us is to run or two of us or whatever number run the mini or especially Monumental or Carmel out.

1:07:40

You know, that they're supporting each other, making T-shirts or signs or what have you.

And in fact, during COVID, I was to do Chicago that year and of course didn't happen because of COVID.

And so might be the same group of friends say, Hey, you're you're going to do a marathon virtually and we're going to come out and support you because you're trained up.

1:07:56

And I'm like, no.

And they go, no, we're going to do it.

And so I was living in downtown Indianapolis.

We put together a 26.2 mile course and went up to Indianapolis, up to Butler, you know, new fields back down and, you know, each up.

Somebody showed up for the first three miles.

Next five, another member of another friend showed up on her bike and she said, here, I'm here supporting.

1:08:15

How long are you going to ride?

And she goes 26.2 miles like you're going to spend the no, you.

And she goes, yeah.

And she would, you know, you need something to drink.

She'd hand me a Powerade write up, you know, just drop it.

I got it.

And that wasn't one of my fastest times because one of my most memorable, one of my most memorable ones because why did they spent the day with me or half a day?

1:08:35

Yeah, running a marathon.

That was, they called it the Gymathon, right?

Because I was the only one running.

That's really cool.

Yeah, that's really cool.

Yeah.

I did the mini virtually the year, the year of COVID, and I had made a map and I made it around my friends houses like in Zionsville.

1:08:51

So I ran from like Carmel to Zionsville.

And so it was cute.

They would, you know, set up.

They had signs the kids made or they had stuff for me.

And that was really special.

Yeah.

One of my friends ran with me.

Some of it.

Yeah.

That's it's, you know, the running community.

1:09:07

You and I both know it's just yeah.

So amazing.

Yeah.

So you know what?

We never talked about your health scare that you had at one of the indie minis.

Tell me about that.

So it's interesting.

So it was 2015 and I got done running the race and thought, wow, I'm really cramped up.

1:09:27

The mini was really humid that year.

And I cramped, I mean, cramped up so bad that like I was on the ground rolling around my calves at the end of the race, right?

Like in the park, in the recovery area going.

I was just looking for milk, you know, anything to go away.

I was supposed to meet some volunteers from back on my feet.

I'm like, you know, I think I'm just going home.

I don't feel good.

1:09:43

And I thought, well, this is dumb.

There's the medical tent.

That's why they're here.

Just go get checked out.

So I walked in the medical tent and said, hey, here's what's going on.

They said we're probably dehydrated, but because of your age, and that's the first time I've been told that before we're.

Going to.

We're going to lay down on a cot and hook you up to a heart monitor.

1:09:59

I'm like, cool, you know, all right, we'll do that.

So they hooked me up and there's all scurrying around.

I go, hey, what's going on?

You know?

And they go, what did you know?

You have an irregular heartbeat?

And I go, years ago, I was told that I went to see a cardiologist.

He said, Jim, if you hook somebody up to a heart monitor long enough, everybody has an irregular heartbeat.

1:10:16

Interesting.

You're fine, go, no problem.

And they said, well, yours is a regular right now, every other beat.

So we're going to put you in an ambulance and take you, you know, to Methodist.

I'm like.

Excuse me?

So I'm like, OK, you know, I'll never forget it.

They put me on the the Gurney and the ambulances are parked a bit of ways from where the tent is.

1:10:34

And it was a real bright sunny day.

So I've got my eyes closed, right?

I'm laying on this Gurney, my eyes closed.

I'll never forget some woman yelling, It's his heart.

Look, he's, he's dead, you know, And I'm like, no, I'm not, you know, not, not dead.

So they wheeled me over to the ambulance.

He's.

Dead dude.

No, I'm not.

I'm here.

I'm here.

1:10:49

They said, you know, should we call your wife?

And God love her, I know she'll listen to this.

She's not a morning person.

And I said you can call her, but she's not going to answer.

But you know, and they said, well, give us a number anyway.

So they get me to the hospital.

And one, it's race day, so it's chaos.

I mean, twisted ankles balls.

1:11:05

Two, it's a level 4 trauma center.

So they got some other stuff going on too.

And Long story short, checked me for a heart attack.

I'd spent, you know, the day there and said, you have what's called by Jiminy heartbeat.

And I said, what does that mean?

And he said by Jiminy, yeah, by Jiminy.

1:11:20

And I said, they said we have an extra beat periodically.

And I said what I do.

And I said, probably talk to your family doctor, get referred to a cardiologist.

And so I did that Jennifer found me, which is a whole another story, late in the day there.

She didn't know where the hospital was.

She was on.

She was.

On Jennifer wakes up and trying to track probably.

1:11:37

Did she answer the phone?

No, she didn't.

And she forgot this message, two or three messages and then she's like, you know, didn't know Andy as well because she'd been here a couple years and was trying to someone's in her desk.

And Ozzy, I mean.

Chaos.

Yes.

So when I went to see the cardiologist, she said, hey, make sure when you see him, you ask him if you can keep running marathons.

1:12:00

I said, I'll do that.

And so he checks me out and explains by Jim, and he hits, OK, as long as your heart muscles healthy.

They did an echogram, your heart muscles healthy, come back and see me every year.

And I said, can I run?

And he goes, oh, yeah, you know, you keep running.

And so I got home and she said, did you ask the doctor about running marathons?

I said, yeah.

I said, can I run?

And he goes, yeah, keep running.

1:12:15

And she said you didn't ask the right question.

She said you and your running friends think running is 13 miles, 26 miles.

To the average human being, it's two or three.

And I said, Oh, well, OK, So I called him back and I said, can I keep doing this?

1:12:32

And he goes, there's not a lot of research that shows the impact of endurance events on by Jiminy.

So he said, unless you can't live without it, I would give up endurance events.

And I said, OK.

And so I padded for a while.

At that time, I'd only done maybe one or two marathons.

And I was like, whoa, I'm sad I can't do marathons.

1:12:49

And I thought, well, I don't really like marathons.

That's OK, you know?

And so I told Jennifer at the time, I said, I got to keep doing halves.

So we're going to pretend like halves aren't endurance races.

We're going to call anything longer an endurance race.

And she's knowing that that was silly, said, I got no, I got to give you something.

So I continued to do halves, started losing.

1:13:07

This is still in the middle of all that weight loss.

And so as the weight started to drop by and I would go see him each year and he'd say, you're good, you're good.

So now Fast forward three years and it's like, I want to do one more marathon.

And so that was 2018.

And so I did caramel and, you know, it went pretty well.

And then in Chicago and the rest of the store that I shared earlier.

1:13:25

So, and I've, I've told the cardiologist that and he has said, I've said, hey, should I be looking for some kind of warning sign like dizziness or dropping over?

And he goes, if you feel good, don't look for any warning sign, like just, you know, keep doing what you're doing.

But the funniest part of that story is, so that's in June of 15.

1:13:43

The 8 hour endurance race had been going for a year or two.

And the first race I signed up for after being told not to run endurance races was called the 8 hour endurance race.

And I had friends going and I ran in a relay, right?

I didn't run by myself for 8:00.

Hours and your wife, Jennifer.

1:14:00

What they said, is there something about the name of that race that you were told not to do is endurance?

I'm like, yeah, but it's just a relay, like I'll be OK.

So I've been blessed.

It it, it doesn't bother some people.

I've been told it feels like your heart's going to, like, come out of your chest.

1:14:15

I don't feel it.

That's good.

Yeah.

I just.

And I get it checked out and as long as my heart stays healthy.

So I think, you know, I try to trade that off with, you know, sitting on the couch eating nachos and weighing 270 plus.

I was heading the wrong.

Game and I'm thinking like yeah your diet the way that you've you know thought about nutrition that has to be a big piece of of why it's able to stay so healthy too like that combined with.

1:14:38

Yeah, and and they're learning more too because I know halfway through my so the process seeing him each year, I asked him when I said I've lost some more weight.

So maybe that because some you don't always find it either when you test for it, is that maybe it went away and he goes, no, you know, that's doesn't anything to do with it.

But then when I went back this year, he said, well, maybe it's gone away.

1:14:54

And I said I didn't think it could go away and he said no, we've now again because time.

Yeah, you know, it can go away.

Mine hadn't because we didn't hooked up up to a harness for like 24 hours.

But you know, things change, right?

Technology and advancements in research in medicine.

1:15:11

I'm just impressed that you let them hook you up to a heart thing at the medical tent.

Yeah, I we don't.

I feel like a lot of guys would be like, listen, I'm, you know.

I wouldn't feel you.

Must have been feeling.

You must have been feeling.

Pretty bad.

The best part of that whole experience was when I got the hospital because I was dehydrated, they hooked me up to IV and that is a great way to recover.

1:15:29

Since learn and I know now they're.

Businesses like places you can.

Go.

But it was like totally awesome.

Like and they were so busy.

They say we're we're so busy.

Do you mind?

We're going to have to wheel you out in the hallway because we just we don't have enough room.

And I'm like, that's cool.

So I'm laying in a bed hooked up to Ivs, laying in the hallway, you know, hearing everything from twisted ankles to gunshot wounds.

1:15:48

And like, this is kind of a weird experience.

This is the most interesting recovery I've ever had and hopefully ever.

Will You wearing your metal?

What did they do with your metal?

Gosh, I think I had it with me.

I must have had it with me.

I don't even remember now how you say that.

Better still have.

It yeah, I probably do.

1:16:04

Somewhere.

I have them hung up somewhere.

Yeah, yeah.

What do you do with your medals?

So gosh, how many years, 567 years ago Jennifer bought it's almost like a tie rack with different hangers on it.

And so I hang up my medals on that tie rack and then I've got hanging next to it.

1:16:22

I have a poster.

Chicago had been my PR in 2019.

And so a poster with that metal hanging up to Jennifer made for me put together.

She's very artistic.

I still need to put something from Mesa.

I have the poster but we just haven't put it together yet.

That's cool.

Yeah, Yeah.

Where is that?

In my office, right behind me, Yeah, kind of reminder of.

1:16:39

I I mean for people who don't care about their medals.

I don't.

I don't quite understand that.

I don't.

Know everybody's different I agree everybody is different some people like, some people like to me it's like no, it's.

It's like, no, I, that's.

Yeah, and they start to add up, right.

I don't, you know, because now you Fast forward, it's 14 years and I've done I think 40 and I had 50 like in the high 40s halves and you know, maybe 11 or 12 marathons.

1:17:01

So and then other things you know like.

Oh yeah, I want to read about.

Ragnar right, so those events too, right.

So some of the great members, memories from those.

Things, yeah, I feel like I don't know if people are, if people listen to every episode, if they get sick of me talking about Ragnar.

I've heard you talk about.

Ragnar, but I'm like selfishly well and you've done Hood to coast as well, which I just we just talked about too with Chris Galloway.

1:17:23

He's getting ready to go do that and then Mark Geyer is going to be there and then another guy I'm going to interview soon is going to be there, Mark Glover.

But yeah, I I'm so excited for the Ragnar.

I have finally gotten into the point of it's about a month out.

I'm doing the one in Michigan on the road.

We are the 12 random running Hoosiers because it's just a random group of us from Indiana.

1:17:43

And yeah, I'm finally in the details, like in the weeds.

Like I've got my legs assigned, I'm looking at elevation, I'm reading all the stuff.

So I'm finally like at the point where it's like, oh gosh, we really like need to make sure we have all the stuff.

Sure, sure.

So you said you've done 7.

Which ones have you?

Done.

Yeah.

1:17:58

So I've done.

Gosh, the first one I did was DC.

I've done Cool Bourbon Chase.

I've done Colorado.

Last year we did what they call it Midwest.

We ran from Chicago to Madison most recently was a trail one in Ohio outside of State Park in Ohio back right after the mini.

1:18:19

OK, what advice do you have for a new?

Well, I'm what for first, because I know I've heard different opinions on your shows about the rags.

I love them.

I love them to death.

I'm one of these guys.

If someone says, hey, you know, we're putting together a Ragnar team, you want to go?

I say yes.

And then I say and where and when I say yes first because I just like the social part of it.

1:18:37

I've done both the road ones and the trail ones.

Again, love the camaraderie.

The the challenging part is the sleep piece.

But I'm fortunate like I could fall asleep in this chair.

If you know, if I was he got to sleep here.

Some people that's hard.

Like my wife, you know, is up for hours at night trying to fall asleep.

1:18:54

I can I have an on off switch, right?

I hit the switch and it's off.

So that piece and probably with the like, what all do I take?

My first, our first year, we took way too much stuff.

It was in DC.

We went to the grocery store.

We bought baskets of fruit, you know, veg, I mean of fruits, Clif Bar.

1:19:10

We had all this stuff we got done and we're like, we got to fly home now and we've got like.

Suitcases full.

And we had so much stuff, Ally.

We called a local mission shelter and said can we?

Will you take?

This.

Yeah, because we don't need to go home with, you know, a dozen bananas and, you know, 20 apples, right.

1:19:27

Like, let's put.

So that was one of those lessons like, hey, there are places we could stop and buy stuff.

Yeah, you need to have some things.

What's your go?

To but you're right, like in a van, like you could roll by a grocery store.

Yeah, that's a good point because I feel like I could easily over pack.

We over packed and then early on, you know, learned that hey, put your your outfits in Ziploc bags with fabric softener sheet.

1:19:49

So they so that helps with the smell.

So then you switch put in, you know which ones to put on and then we put the stinky ones in that bag.

That helps with some of the odor too because the fabric softener sheet.

That's I like that.

I didn't come up with that on my own, obviously it was Yep.

One of my well I'm going to buy like shower wipes I've heard.

1:20:05

That's a big thing.

So yeah, I'm going to do that.

I don't know.

We're thinking about a group of us I run with now.

We're thinking real hard.

In fact, we need to sign up.

We're going to do it to do Michigan, the trail one next.

Year.

Yeah, I'd love to do a trail one.

Yeah, the trail ones again.

1:20:20

I like them both.

Some people who prefer the tray ones because logistically it's not as complicated, right?

Because you're camping out.

You're hanging out.

Right, like Van and.

So we didn't even, you know, bring our tents and stuff.

It was all provided, paid for it provided.

And it's like, OK, Ally, you know, it's time for you to run.

1:20:36

You're like, OK, Yeah.

Is it more like the 8 hour endurance kind of thing where you have a set base?

Yes.

And then you go from there.

And you have still, you still have 3 loops.

Everybody runs three easy, medium, hard, and you just keep rotating through those.

So those loops, it's eight people instead of 12 because it's not as long.

1:20:53

OK, Interesting.

Yeah, Yeah, that's interesting to me.

I I am.

I'm intrigued by ultra and trail.

And will you ever do an ultra marathon?

Great question.

My wife says no, like that's her, like Jim, don't even think about it and I'll go.

But I wonder how far I could go.

1:21:09

So I signed up this year, actually, for Prairie on Fire.

Which has come out, which is very soon.

But I had to defer it because we planned a vacation that same week.

It was the only week we could go.

So in fact, when I said, hey, look, I need to get out of this, he said, well, you can either.

In fact, one of your previous speakers you had on here that helped organize Prairie on.

1:21:30

Fire TJ Yeah.

TJ Yeah.

I reached out to TJ and he goes, well, we can give you money back or defer to year.

I go defer to year because I'm doing this.

I want to know how far I can go.

So yes, from that standpoint I have thought.

About it, which is, which is.

You know, that's different than like the full MO where it's like you're going 31.2 miles.

1:21:47

I thought about that too, which I want to do.

Yes, I've thought about that one too.

Yes, I got a call.

Sorry, Jennifer.

Yes.

She knows she knows it's complicated or even the 8 hour endurance.

The cool thing about that one too is right so many people, especially if you're never run a marathon and you're like, I don't know if I can do it in six hours.

1:22:02

It's it's awesome because you have support, you know, loop, you know, we're going to finish and I have some people go, well, how could you run the same loop for with all the support and camaraderie?

There's also, it's a great, it's great mental training because yes, you know, I, I argue and I've talked about this, it's like got to be 980 or 90% mental.

1:22:21

Yes.

Oh, I've said before.

Wait, like in the high 90s?

Yeah, because it's.

Just like your body, especially once you've trained, Yeah, like you can.

And it's just your mind's just telling you this one. 100% get it out.

Like you, like you talked about before, just saying nice things to yourself at mile 20 instead of being like this sucks I can't do this.

1:22:38

Being aware of OK, it's got to get hard.

Yeah, your mind is.

Just you've done this before, yeah.

All those things, right?

Which is selfishly why I always ask about the mantras and stuff because it's like now I have like a list of all these amazing things to say to myself instead of being like, wow, there's no way I could possibly keep this pace for another three.

1:22:57

It's like, what are you?

Why are you saying that to yourself?

Right.

Right, Yeah, assume constraints, right?

Like I can't.

Or if you looked at your watch and go even on a whoa, I'm going, I can't go this fast.

I better slow down.

Right.

What?

Yeah.

Maybe it's all all in your head.

1:23:12

It's crazy.

So crazy.

So.

Oh man, well, that's that's cool.

You've done so many Ragnars.

I will definitely I'll be I'll have one of the women from our team come on the show after and then we'll talk at length about it and then people can decide whether or not they want to hear more about Ragnar or less.

1:23:28

But.

We'll add one story to that.

So when we did the one last year, went Chicago to Milwaukee, to Madison, and it was six of us who knew each other real well and then another six where there was a common acquaintance.

And so we went just, hey, we're going to have fun.

But we realized we were going pretty fast and the other fan was pretty serious, like let's just see what we can do.

1:23:45

So race ends and we get notification that we're second and they're going to send us, I was a captain and they're going to send us a baton like, well, I never went anything.

This is awesome, Ali.

They reached out three weeks later and said someone on the 1st place team stepped forward and said we cheated.

1:24:00

We didn't do every leg.

We don't deserve first place.

Like somebody couldn't sleep at night, right?

And so we ended up we did.

Yes, What is what?

Are you doing sheet that are ragged?

I know exactly that's so dumb.

Exactly.

They said we didn't do all the legs we shouldn't you know, So we ended up getting the 1st place you.

1:24:18

Shipped back the 2nd place and.

They shipped it to the right people and they shipped us the 1st place.

It was pretty cool.

It was a baton with, you know, the.

And as the team captain, you got to keep it.

We all got one.

You each get a baton.

Each get a baton that's.

Really cool that makes.

Sense kind of a clever one thing you know and I don't win anything I mean I yeah.

1:24:34

And so that's that's.

Really fun.

Well, Chris Galloway, who I mentioned going out to Hood Coast, they're going to, they want to break the Masters record out.

There, OK.

Oh my.

Gosh, so we're going to have fun.

Yeah, it's a random mix, like I said, of, you know, abilities.

And I'm a competitive person.

I will be competitive with myself on my own legs.

1:24:52

But I'm excited to go and have fun as well.

Maybe at some point do one to try to go fast.

I don't know.

I mean, it's just what a cool experience.

I am worried about the lack of sleep, but I think having young kids.

You're you're.

Well trained because our kids with the sleep right now are not not super great so hopefully that'll help me out.

1:25:10

Yeah.

And what you find, because you go, well, that's a long time, especially when you're in the van that's out on the road running, you're either running, getting ready to run, just ran.

Right, it probably goes.

Way faster.

And when you're the other van, you're, you know, going to grab breakfast or lunch or sleep.

So I feel like the whole experience goes quicker.

1:25:27

I've heard people on here to talk about with van one or van two.

Yeah, I've liked being in van one.

Like, I'm sorry, van two to finish.

But some are like, no man, we want to get done six hours ahead and shower and, you know, start having beverages while we wait for the next family.

Come in.

Yeah, yeah.

1:25:42

My friend Jennifer, who is on in my van, I was trying to take what I thought was a more difficult leg to be the second runner.

And then she was going looking through all the elevation stuff.

She's like, would you mind being like the first one?

I feel like because it starts off like up.

And I was like, sure.

1:25:57

I thought I was just trying to be, I'm trying to be a good team caption, like offering to be in van, like us in van two offering to be the second runner.

And now I get to start, which I'm actually really excited about and so much fun.

And so I'll be the first one done too, which is my jam.

Like, I love the idea of being able to, like, go shower and then cheer everybody on.

1:26:15

So yeah.

But it's interesting you find out a lot about your friends when you're in a fan together for six.

Hours, my best friend and I I don't know or not six hours ever done.

This is going to sound so bad.

I don't know if Alyssa and I've ever really like gone on a girls trip and she's like my best friend.

1:26:31

We're it's always with our kids.

We're always with our kids.

Yeah, this will be interesting.

Yeah, because you do find out again, it'll work.

It's always worked out well.

But you'll find out like sometimes the resentment bills between Van one and two, when I was in one race where Van 2 Van One was sending us pictures and they're all sitting in hot dubs and.

1:26:47

Right.

And it's like, hey, and we're still being pulled off on that.

And I thought it was great.

It's cool.

There's kind of a good time.

And the other people are like, yes, like this is not nice.

This is why I'll never do this, you know, in Van Two again.

It's like.

Right, Yeah, I mean, and it's hard when you're not sleeping.

1:27:03

I'm sure people's, you know, I know I'll have to be nice.

I'll have to be nice.

Yeah, it's hard when I'm not sleeping.

You know, at least I know everybody in my van.

So at least there's that.

Not super well, all of them, but I mean, one used to, I used to live with, so she knows me probably pretty well, but it's been a long time.

1:27:20

So anyway, I'm so excited about that, but.

They're great.

They're great experiences.

It's gonna be I again do it.

We did the one we did in Ohio.

The trio one was hard.

It's the hardest one I've done.

I fell two of the legs and one time fell.

I got up, my face was bleeding.

I'm like, OK, we'll figure this out when we get done.

1:27:37

There was just some small cuts and stuff.

That was the first time where I went, you know, maybe train running for me, like maybe I'm a pavement runner, yeah.

Maybe having the road you can always trip on any.

You can't.

I've tripped several times when people.

1:27:52

Oh, you're on the was it icy?

No, just fell down.

I drag my feet.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

I yeah, do that occasionally.

Oh man, Jim, this has been so fun.

Oh yeah, I've enjoyed.

It thank you.

Sure.

I'm going to ask you the end of the podcast questions now.

So, and I already know this because I read an interview for when you were on the Indie Runners board, but you don't run with music.

1:28:10

No I don't.

I've tried a couple times and I I just it I can't do it.

Yeah, that's so interesting.

I've started, not occasionally, which I actually don't mind as much as I thought.

I thought I needed it.

I don't think I need it.

Yeah, there are times when I went or, you know, I've, you know, the last couple years gotten into listening to podcasts.

1:28:27

Like I don't listen to podcasts while I run.

I just, yeah, I just feel like I've got to be more.

Aware for me, which is totally fair.

Yeah, I've listened to, I just finished a Peloton instructors book, Susie Chan, such a good trails and tribulations adventure.

She's like an ultra marathoner.

1:28:43

I had no idea any of these stories.

So that's really great.

But I can listen to books and podcasts, but I realize I can also do completely without.

Sure.

I'm trying.

I'm dabbling.

So.

So my question is, yeah.

What's your favorite running song or mantra?

So in your case, do you have a mantra that you use?

I do so my friend Candace, one of my running friends a couple years ago, the body achieves what the mind believes and so when I did actually when I PR D in Mesa, that's what I kept thinking right as I was getting harder I was like come on, you can do this.

1:29:11

Body achieves what the mind believes yeah so that was prior to that was don't quit.

That was always one I had, but that's that would be my most, yeah.

Recent one and again, yeah, back to the mental piece of it, yes and then next finish line or milestone.

So we know New York City, yes and no Prairie on fire this year.

1:29:31

Anything else?

Are you signed up for other?

Stuff.

Not yet.

I'll probably run 1/2 or two just to get ready for New York.

And then I got to figure out when I go from there.

As I was getting closer to four hours, I realized I'm getting older.

That a Boston time it's getting possible and it's always been out there.

1:29:46

It's what keeps me going.

When I went 354 it's like yeah, it's four more minutes plus maybe 5 more minutes.

So not sure yet.

And hearing that they may even lower it again.

So I've, yeah, I'm okay if I don't, I have to go chase that, but I'm not saying I won't go chase it.

1:30:03

So right in the we'll go back to Mesa probably in February and I have to figure out if I'm going to do the half or full, probably the half after coming off New York.

And then you'll come to Vegas and.

It'll be on the Vegas, that's right.

That's why I better not do all.

Convince Mike and Morgan to come like.

Let's do it.

That would be good.

Yeah, it'd be really fun.

Yeah, we'll see.

1:30:19

I don't know.

Originally someone said, hey, your time in Mesa got you in Chicago next year automatically.

I said, oh, that's cool, I'll go back to Chicago.

It's my favorite race.

Well then I think they just came out and they said they lowered their times recently too.

In fact, some of their times are lower now than Boston.

1:30:36

That's what I mean.

I'm lucky that I did Marine Corps, I think before there was, There wasn't a lottery when we signed up for Marine Corps when I did it, and Chicago I did for years.

I think the last time I did Chicago was one of the first years they had a lottery and I got in maybe because I'd done it like the three years, you know, before that.

1:30:52

But now, yeah, I mean, I've not ever successfully gotten into a lottery.

New York I did for charity.

I submitted to the lottery for London, which like nobody got into, and then Chicago this year and didn't get in.

So yeah.

But have you ever run the Monumental full?

I have I haven't done that a couple times.

1:31:09

Yes, yes, in fact I did that prior to going out to Mesa to run, is that right?

Yeah, the before I run the half OK last year, so I guess I've been 22.

So I've done the monumental full a couple times.

Good, good.

Yeah, I did it the year.

The most recent one I did was the rough weather.

1:31:24

Wind here.

Me too.

Yeah.

And people said was the wind and I said no, I knew at the halfway point it was more than just the wind.

Yeah.

And I have friends that PR.

Good.

I had a great race that.

Day I have.

I executed on my race.

Plan.

I have two friends that like call Hyper Boston that day.

So, I mean, again, it was, it was the wind was nuts, don't get me wrong.

1:31:43

But yeah, that's, it's kind of how you react to that.

It is, yeah.

So thankfully I'm somehow able to just fight through it.

I don't know.

Well, I wish you well on the Mon you mail this year 'cause I.

Know here.

Thank you A.

Lot into this one.

Yeah, I'm excited.

We'll see.

So well, thanks again.

Sure.

Thank you.

1:31:58

Thank you to everybody who has listened.

Thank.

You and if you enjoyed this episode, remember to rate, review and share.

I appreciate you.