Finish Lines & Milestones: Episode 74

Here's a link to listen to this week's episode.

Guest: Will Siman

Show Notes: 

Will Siman⁠ is early into his running journey but not wasting any time. During this conversation, sponsored by ⁠Athlete Bouquets⁠, we talk about:

• How we met through Will’s dad, Mike, and Miami of Ohio, but neither Will nor his dad went to school there
• How he achieved his dream of working for the Ohio State football program but then hated it
• The Indy 500 and Will’s family tradition of going to the race every year and me trying to talk Will into coming to Indy for the ⁠Indy Mini ⁠
• Going from a “large football player” to “psycho runner”
• That the FIRST running challenge Will conquered was ⁠David Goggins’ 4 X 48 challenge ⁠(running 4 miles every 4 hours for 48 hours for 48 miles) he did it with his younger twin brothers
• His first marathon in Myrtle Beach, his first ever organized race
• Marathon number two and qualifying for the Boston Marathon and what that experience was like
• Going from marathons to ultra marathons… 50K (31 miles) then 50 miler and next 100K (62 miles)
• Winning a Vegas 50K and only getting a bottle of water
• His “holy cow” moment of finding out that he couldn’t use his headphones 2 weeks before his 50 miler
• The mental side of running
• Podcasts he listens to while running: ⁠Oops The Podcast⁠, ⁠Rich Roll⁠
• Working as a civilian for the Air Force and traveling to Vietnam
• His next finish line in two weeks at the ⁠Firetower⁠ 100K in Minnesota where they are warning runners of black bears

Episode Transcript

0:00

Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones with Ally Brett Knocker.

Incredible stories and tales of triumphs with everyday people achieving their goals and fitness.

This podcast brought to you by Athlete Bouquets.

Celebrate finish lines and milestones of the people that you love by visiting athletebouquets.com.

0:21

Hello and welcome to episode 74, this is Ally Brett Knocker.

Perhaps as you're listening to this.

I am running my first ever Ragnar relay, which I will get into more in this episode, but it is from Traverse City, MI down to Muskegon, about 200 ish miles with a team of 12 of us.

0:42

So my first leg is Friday, September 20th starting at 8.

AMI am the first runner and I'll have two more legs throughout the weekend.

I'm hoping that my body can learn how to sleep in a van or in a tent so that I don't get sick again.

0:57

If you weren't here for the last few episodes, I battled the flu very early in the season and so I'm over that back on the horse, but hoping that my body can handle this challenge ahead.

But I'm so excited.

We're not trying to win.

We're out there to have fun and enjoy the experience.

1:12

So as my coach says, remember that.

Don't kill yourself because we have a marathon to train for.

So she is right and hopefully I can stay healthy and have a great race.

I will report back and if you want to follow along in the journey and we aren't already Instagram friends, you can follow me at Ally ALLYT as in tango Brett Brett under score runs.

1:37

So Ally T Brett runs is on is me on Instagram, and I'm going to do my best to document the experience for others and so that I can remember what is sure to be a blur of not sleeping.

So another thing I wanted to make you aware of as my special podcast listeners is I've created a discount code for my business athlete bouquets athlete bouquets.com.

2:02

You can use the code podcast for 10% off and prove to my husband that people do listen to the podcast and also support my business.

So thank you in advance for that.

Again, it's code podcast for 10% off.

And then this week's guest I met randomly through his dad, and his dad has ties to Indiana, went to Ball State, is a casual runner.

2:25

And I was asking him for suggestions for podcast guests and he said, oh, my son, and sent me a bulleted list of the things that his son Will has accomplished thus far in his running journey.

And I immediately wanted to meet Will.

So Will was kind enough to jump on a call with a complete stranger and talk about running for 90 minutes.

2:44

And I was so impressed by him.

He is young, however, just super, super talented.

It's clear that he has a natural talent for the sport, but he went from being a big football player to now being a crazy runner and clearly has been bitten by the bug.

3:02

You will hear his progression from literally his first running challenge was David Goggins's 4 by 48 challenge, which we'll talk about during the episode if you're not familiar.

And in two weeks, he's doing 100K.

So that's about 62 miles.

So he's really caught in the bug, and he's gotten after it quickly.

3:22

Will was so kind, and I know that you'll be cheering for him and his brothers who are his running companions as he tackles that next challenge.

But I hope you really enjoy this conversation with Will Simon.

Hey Will, how's it going?

3:38

Good, happy Tuesday Ali, I am enjoying my favorite month of the year, September.

Breaking up the day to talk about some running.

Yeah, Tuesday.

It's good that you said that because often times I forget what day it is.

My husband's traveling right now so it's all a blur for me.

OK, OK, very nice.

3:56

September is your favorite.

Is it your favorite running weather in September?

Is that what what makes it your favorite?

It is.

I definitely like to do a fall race every year and when you're training over the summer, the heat can be good, but it definitely kicks your butt.

4:13

So getting into September, weather's changing, leaves are changing, it's just like the best vibe.

Also kind of can make you feel like 1,000,000 bucks if you have a morning where it's a bit chillier out and then just having football on.

4:28

I don't know it it is easy for me to run in September, so that's a big factor in that.

Yeah, yeah, football.

We'll talk more about football and you.

First, I want to tell people how I found you.

We talked about it before we hit record, but your dad and I met ages ago at this Miami of Ohio thing, and he works for Miami of Ohio.

4:48

And here I assumed that you guys both went there and then neither of you went there.

And so I was so surprised by that.

But you went to the Ohio State.

Where?

Where did your dad go to undergrad?

So my dad went to Ball State.

That's right.

5:04

He is an Indiana boy.

I know you're out of Indy, correct?

I am, yeah.

So he grew up in South Bend, Big, Notre Dame, Indy 500 family and then went to Ball States.

We have a lot of roots there.

My mom did go to Miami of Ohio and my brother's there for school now, so we have some connections there.

5:24

But it's funny when you emailed me that because, yeah, I went to Ohio State very intentional about not using the As.

I know that just rubs so many people the wrong way.

But yeah, I grew up in Ohio, was actually always obsessed with the idea of leaving Ohio for college.

5:43

So like, we went to Clemson and Georgia and all these, you know, more sexy schools.

And I was like, oh, I'm going to get out of here.

And then as fate happens, I went and visited Ohio State and was just like, so smitten and fell in love with the campus and going there ended up being one of the best decisions I made.

6:03

I was a marketing major and yeah, ended up staying in Columbus four years after college as well.

I'm in Cincinnati now but definitely have some great history in that city.

Yeah, I feel like especially you being a football player going into the shoe for the first time had to be like, OK, this is amazing.

6:24

Like the matches of that?

Yeah, yeah, no doubt.

Big football school was fun.

Trying to think it was funny.

I didn't mention this to you, but I had a big dream when I went to Ohio State of being a football coach, believe it or not.

6:40

Like that idea was just cool.

I was like, I'm into this.

So I was so persistent with hitting people up to join the program.

I figured, like, getting in somehow as a manager or whatever would, I don't know, allow me to meet people and get my foot in the door, for lack of a better term.

6:58

So my dad talking about how you met him always, you know, taught me persistence is key.

So I was hitting up so many people via e-mail, phone, texts and finally got in contact with someone.

7:13

And I ended up working for the program as a manager.

And I won't go too long here.

But what was funny was after working for the team for a semester, I hated it.

And it ended up, yeah, I'm assuming you didn't expect me to go down that direction.

7:31

That's so interesting though.

Yeah, it was a good teacher in that it was probably the only thing I can think of in my life that I quit so quickly.

But I just knew I hated it.

The work life balance, just all the commitment that it took, I realized it was a good learning experience for me being a 20 year old that like sometimes you need to experience things to realize what you don't want to do.

7:55

And going back to walking into the shoe and going to Ohio State, that was something that was so glorified in my head that ended up just falling like so short.

But I have this piece that now I know I tried that and it wasn't for me.

Yeah, I think it's interesting to have this big grand dream that you put out there.

8:14

You're like, OK, I dream of doing this.

And then you actually get there and you do it and you're like, oh, OK, this is not what I expected.

Yes, it didn't match up at all.

Yes, 100% I I totally feel that.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I have only been to Ohio State one time and it was for a Rolling Stones concert.

8:35

Actually is Ohio.

No, that's OU that's different.

What a high university.

Yeah, and Oh yeah, I wasn't there in college once for like, for.

They're big for Halloween, right?

Oh, you.

Yeah, yes, they are.

8:50

They're vaunted as potentially the biggest party school in the United States, for whatever that's worth.

But that's why you went there for Halloween.

I think I've been there for that too.

Yeah, it was a long, long time ago.

So you're 26?

I'm 38.

So I graduated from Miami in 08.

9:07

OK, Yeah.

What'd you go to school there for?

You know, I went for business kind of general speaking, like being, it's funny that you were like, OK, I was, you know, you wanted to like branch out of Ohio.

9:23

I wanted to branch out of Indiana.

Kind of same thing, Like everybody was going to, you know, IU, Purdue, Allstate, like everyone was staying.

And my dad took me on campus at Miami and Dayton and very different schools.

But I just fell in love with the campus, kind of like you described.

9:41

And I was like, this is where I want to go.

And yeah, kind of similar to what you shared.

Like I had, I knew a couple people going, but I chose to just like have a random roommate.

And it was a great experience.

It feels like another lifetime ago now, but I loved it.

10:00

Yeah, 100%.

It's a little hidden gem.

I think, like so many people wouldn't be aware of how nice and cool it is.

But no, that's awesome you liked it.

Yeah, so thanks to Miami of Ohio for just randomly bringing you and I together and to have a conversation about running your dad.

10:17

Was, yeah, no doubt.

I I, I forget why I mentioned to him that I'm always looking for podcast guests for this podcast that just shares runner stories, but he was so cute.

He just replied with like a bulleted list of all of your running accolades.

10:33

He's like, OK, Yep, my son will.

Here's a list of all the races he's done, the times, the place.

And I was like, this is amazing.

I have to meet Will.

So I love that so much.

Yeah, it was funny.

He he texted me, he's like, I need your running accolades.

10:50

And I was like, he was a runner.

I know he's proud of me, but never really for specifics, if that makes sense.

Like when I ran the Columbus Marathon, they showed up to support me and I'd already finished by the time they showed up.

11:06

And he was like, oh, wow, Will, I didn't know you were, you know, this serious about a time.

You know what I mean?

I think he was maybe a bit more casual with running than me.

So when he hit me up for kind of my history, I thought that was funny, but it makes sense.

11:21

He was connecting me with you, though.

Yeah, no, I'm very grateful.

He's proud.

Running is definitely something I guess we get to share.

Yeah, that's really cool.

I want to talk about indie, your indie connection.

So the listeners of this podcast, a lot of them tend to be in the indie area, mainly because I try to have local, like in person interviews.

11:44

It's just, you know, easier.

But I love that you have a big indie connection in the 500, as you mentioned.

So I've only been to the race twice in my life.

I've been here most of my life.

You said you've been how many times to the Indie 500?

12:03

So I'm 26, I think I have been anywhere from 15 to 18 times.

It's been enough that I don't remember.

I know things are a bit blurry the first time we went, but it's interesting.

My dad, like I said, they grew up in South Bend and my grandpa always would take them to the race and frankly going early on to Indy.

12:28

I'd be curious about your experience.

Like I really just kind of enjoyed it because my dad and my uncles and my grandpa enjoyed it.

I I would go, I'd be like, well, this is extremely loud.

This is kind of different than a football or basketball game where like, yeah, the cars are going fast, but there's not a lot going on.

12:48

That's kind of how I felt about it early on.

But as I've gotten older, I don't know if it's just the consistency or the tradition or how many people go or just the sentimental connection I have.

It's now like my favorite thing to go to.

13:05

It's it's such a treat.

And I've realized how massive of an event it is for the city of Indianapolis and Indiana.

Yeah, Humongous, what is your talking about tradition?

Do you have like a certain area of the track that you always sit in?

13:24

Have you done the infield like?

What's kind of your race day tradition like?

Yeah, yeah.

So we bounced around.

I know like my dad talks about when they grow up, they would sit in the turns that I guess it's a more dry place to watch the race in terms of just not much action.

13:41

At one point about 10 years ago, I think, my dad decided to kind of ante up and decide to pay for the the paddock tickets right in front of the start finish line.

Oh.

In terms of tradition, I think we've realized with the race and everything else, like fun in life, anticipation is a lot.

14:00

You know what I mean?

Like you got a big weekend coming up or a wedding or a marathon or whatever.

Like the anticipation really is like a lot of the fun.

So these seats we get to see the drivers announced back home again in Indiana, National Anthem, gentlemen, start your engines.

14:23

So getting like that hour and a half of pre race activities.

Amazing being the car start on the green flag.

I know they'll have like the honorary starters who were like the celebrities who will wave the green flag to one year when they were doing Ford versus Ferrari, they had Christian Bale and Matt Damon.

14:41

So my dad will always bring the binoculars or you know, gawking at those guys.

So I would say going up, driving from Cincinnati, showing up super early and sitting in our seats from like 9:00 AM till the start is the tradition.

14:59

I think my dad especially just soaks that up like it's Christmas and his birthday all into one.

It's it's awesome.

Yeah.

Are there, so you said seats.

I'm trying to picture the pagoda.

So do you have like seats that are outside overlooking or is it more like a suite type of format where you're like in your seats?

15:19

I have no idea.

It's outside.

It's outside.

No, we are.

It would be sweet if we were in a suite, but no, it's just outside, like right across from the pagoda.

We'll go with his side.

The.

Family.

People.

Are going to think I'm dumb even asking you that now that I'm thinking about it.

15:34

So just like disregard.

So it's a crossfire.

What do you said?

I was picturing that there's like stuff in the pagoda or like seats on a balcony outside of the pagoda.

Those all do exist.

It's funny.

I'm just thinking about my family and the thought of us having seats.

That bougie.

15:49

Yeah, I was like.

Damn, well that's real bougie.

I had no idea.

Yeah, yeah.

But no, it is a great time.

It seems like everybody in Indy is gone.

What have you thought of it?

OK, so I'm the worst race fan, so I, OK, well, I shouldn't say I'm the worst.

16:07

I'm not the worst.

I've been.

I have a lot of people I know in my life who have absolutely never been to the race, which is somewhat unusual.

I feel like if you're from here, you've probably been not much of a tradition in our family.

My dad took me and my middle sister.

I'm the oldest of three girls.

16:22

Took me and my middle sister one year.

I couldn't tell you when that was.

And it rained, so we were there.

We saw 15 laps of the race and then we left.

So probably good for like, you know, having two kids there.

You know, we got to see what it was about.

And then we're like, OK, cool, now we're going to go.

16:39

It's a quick trip.

Oh my gosh.

OK.

Yeah, I mean, and then the other time I went was was bougie actually.

So I, I got to go.

I was representing the city of Indianapolis.

I did a short stint in economic development as part of my career.

16:56

And so I was, I was hosting people from Brazil.

Wow.

Hot damn.

So like wild but.

We might.

We.

Had best friends who worked for the IMS for years and years and years in sales and so he hooked me up with sweet tickets.

17:13

And so.

That was really that was a really good way to see the race.

I was very spoiled and I also got to see an IndyCar race in Brazil, which was also really cool.

Really visiting these same people.

Yeah.

Yeah, wow.

And so.

17:29

You're like, we're at a dinner and there's like all the drivers are everywhere and you're just kind of like, I'm like thinking, man, I wish I was a better fan so that I could like appreciate, appreciated.

It Yeah.

But yeah, I actually in a good segue to the the Indie mini this year, I actually finished the race right next to Tony Kanaan, which was kind of so.

17:51

Running.

So he's a runner.

He.

Is a runner, Yeah.

I don't know how much he does.

I can't remember if he's done a mirror.

I think he's probably run a marathon, but he's done the indie mini before and he was there this year.

And I like, look over.

I'm like, I think that's Tony Kannan.

And then when we finish, they're like Tony Kannan.

18:06

And you're like, OK, yeah, that's that's Tony.

He's a pretty tiny dude, right?

Yes, yeah.

Yeah.

OK.

OK.

So I'd be curious for you to tell me.

I'm sure your listeners have probably heard about it more than once.

They're familiar, but we in my basement, my dad has all this mini indie merch.

18:23

I know my aunts talked about how it's on the track and there have been years where it's so hot and then we have the Black Flag and everything.

I'm assuming you've run that more than once.

Just sounds like an amazing event.

Yeah, I OK, well, you got to do it.

18:38

So here's my well, first of all, you're an Indie 500 family.

You just have to do it.

I know, I know, I know.

Like you get to run on the track.

It's so cool.

Yeah, the it's, it's just interesting.

The thing with running is, and this is such a blessing of it, as you as you get more into it, you realize there's like infinitely an infinite amount of cool opportunities for races.

18:59

You know what I mean?

That is, that couldn't be more true.

The problem with it for you in Cincinnati is that it's the same weekend as the Flying Pig.

So people people will run the indie Mini on Saturday and then go to Cincinnati and run, you know, the half or the full in Cincinnati the next day.

19:17

Which is.

Probably the way that I'll end up doing the Flying Pig someday because I've done the indie mini.

I think this year was my 14th or maybe year.

OK.

I've done it.

I figured you'd be a season that.

I've done it a lot.

I've actually never run it when it's been black flagged.

19:34

OK.

It does get warm, especially when you're on like black asphalt like early May.

It can be really warm.

It's rained before, but seldom.

I think maybe only once or twice it's rained, but this past year I did it with Are you familiar with the organization called Ainsley's Angels?

19:52

Do you know what I'm talking about?

So I've I listened to a couple episodes and heard this brought up briefly.

If you could explain it to me, that'd be good.

So Ainsley's Angels, they basically are an organization where you can volunteer to run, pushing somebody who's unable to run in like, oh, in a chariot.

20:11

They have these amazing chairs that they've created for running and so I did that at the Indie Mini this year and I immediately after the race was like, I'm always going to do that.

That's going to be my jam this year on.

I'm going to do that at the Mini.

It was so great.

20:28

Yeah.

So this is the first time you did that?

Yeah, and it was amazing.

Wow, that that is nuts.

So I'm thinking like never having done that.

Did you do anything different to prep or train for that?

If that makes sense.

20:44

It makes sense.

How much I've gone out and run, I've never thought about, all right, for this amount of distance, I'm going to be pushing someone and potentially how that could affect me.

Yeah, it was.

It's funny, Will, because my friend Ashley, who pushed with me, we had every intention of like taking her kids out on a stroller run, like to prepare, and she did that more.

21:06

We never did it together.

And I have not done a lot of stroller running.

My kids are getting a little older, so I've done stroller running in the past.

OK.

So I wasn't going for time.

So I just really didn't really train especially for it.

21:22

I would say like if you were going to go race it, then you would definitely have to find a way to like borrow a friend's kid or you know, do some stroller running. 100% I I totally feel that vibe to where when you're an experienced runner, you know, you can just go out and get it done and if you don't have some time threshold, you're like, all right, I, I have this in the bag and I'm just going to enjoy it.

21:44

OK, interesting.

Good to know.

Which was cool.

So you got to come do the mini.

Do you?

Have you done the Flying pig?

Do you do that?

That's that's another one that I so I just moved back to Cincinnati in July.

I will probably do it this coming May OK.

21:59

But once again, everybody's like, Oh my gosh, Cincinnati.

How have you not done it?

But like, I mean, I would say my first ever competitive race was in like March of 2022, which I guess is over two years now.

But it's also like, I haven't, you know, been doing this for 10 years, if that makes sense.

22:18

So yeah, trying to just get them in where I can because you're also investing travel, potentially time sign up fee to pick races.

And part of me is like, I'd rather go somewhere I haven't been to run a race than run one in Cincinnati where I've spent my whole life.

22:34

You know what I mean?

That's fair.

Yeah, completely fair.

Yeah, I guess that's where I could continue to make a case for Indy being cheap and drivable.

So I'm like, OK, you know, But yeah, that the whole expense of it is a whole nother thing.

But I, I want to back up a little bit Will, because I want to talk about kind of your upbringing in football because your dad, his like first line, I think in his e-mail back to me was he said, oh, you got to talk to my son because he went from a quote like large football player to a, a psycho runner, which when he said psycho runner, I was like, sold.

23:11

OK, I yeah, that's funny.

Large is a hilarious word to use.

You know, I'm happy to talk about this.

And psycho, that's definitely some dad's love, but I also like to think I'm working towards that.

So basically played football from 3rd through 12th grade.

23:30

I was always a heavier set kid.

I was an offensive lineman, so doing the blocking, which typically caters towards being heavier, you know what I mean?

Like you gotta have big dudes up front.

So I would say at one point in high school, I literally probably weighed about 260 lbs.

23:50

And if I'm being frank, it was not like a big burly muscular kid.

Like we would run sprints after practice for conditioning and I would literally be dead last.

This was not something that like bother me.

It really got in my head, if that makes sense.

24:06

Yeah, I was going to ask you that if it was hard being big and if people give you a hard time for that.

Yeah, so I I had a lot of friends, but being big was, you know, something that just how dudes will banter with each other came up.

But like, this was never something affecting my mental health or my mood or anything.

24:26

I mean, obviously when I finish a gastric practice and be out of breath, I was like, wow, this sucks.

But it was never like, I need to lose weight or man, I would kill to be at the front of the sprints.

I don't know.

It was just I accepted that reality for myself.

24:44

Whatever, Fast forward, I stayed every year throughout college.

And then so you mentioned you're being the oldest of three sisters total.

So I have a set of brothers.

25:00

They are two years younger than me and they are identical twins.

OK.

Yeah, yes, it is funny.

We just went to get, we just went to get cookies on Friday night before a movie.

And this guy was looking at me.

He's like, are you brothers?

And then we were like, they took off their hats.

25:15

They were like, yeah, dude, no duh.

It was just so hilarious.

Like my grandma will literally mix their names up.

Anyway, they got into running and for a while I was like I'll go out once a week and run 2 miles.

25:33

It was so casual in college.

So at one point in early or late 2021, early 2022, I am assuming you being a runner, you at least have heard the name David Goggins.

25:50

Oh, yes, Sir.

OK, OK, I was going to say I I'd imagine most people are familiar with that man's game.

So he has the Have you heard of the Four by 48 challenge?

Somebody told me I should do that, and it sounds terrifying.

Yeah.

26:06

Explain what it is though, for people who don't know.

For those that don't know, the premise of the challenge is you take a 48 hour time period, so two days and then every four hours on the mark you run 4 miles to total 48 miles and 48 hours.

26:29

So typically he sets a weekend in March and will then bounce around to cities where he lit or yeah, little towns where he lives.

And there'll be big groups of people doing this challenge.

So my brother's texted me and said, hey, we want to do this.

26:45

And keep in mind, up to this point I'd probably never run further than 5 miles.

Right.

Oh my gosh.

They were like you should, you know, we should do this with you, like will you do with us?

And when I got that text, it didn't really scare me, but I was also just kind of like this sounds like a lot.

27:04

And I know I'm a believer in prep like I, I just, I, I wasn't jumping at it and then I said fuck it and I was like, I will at least attempt this, but you guys have to come to Columbus to me where I live and so I can have my own bed and all that.

27:22

I was being a bit high maintenance in hindsight.

I.

Think I love that.

So anyway, they show up Friday night, it's like 9:00 and I'm just thinking in my head, I'm like, all right, we're about to be doing this till Sunday night.

I guess.

We started Friday night about 10:00, did our first four miles and so kind of established this routine of run 4 miles, get back.

27:48

And, you know, after the first 3, which went OK, you realize, like, wow, that took about 4550 minutes.

You want to kind of keep stretching to stay loose.

You want to get food in, You want to get naps in, you want to shower.

28:03

Like these breaks were pretty quick.

And I would say my first breakthrough was we got through the first six of the 12, four milers.

Hopefully I'm making sense here.

Yeah, no, I'm with you.

OK, so it was Saturday night in the middle of the night, and I was like, wow, that was 24 miles in a day, almost a marathon, not consecutively, obviously.

28:27

So I don't want to act like I could have just done that.

But I was like, that was like my first ever breakthrough of that whole concept of like, your mind can kind of maybe limit what you actually can do.

Yes.

So then I would say my true moment of realizing I was in to running and maybe just some extreme things like this was we had like our eighth run.

28:56

It was like 4:00 AM on Sunday morning.

We were running through this neighborhood in Columbus in the middle of the night.

And there was just this airiness about how I felt.

And you know, people talk about runner's high, but I was out there with those two dudes and I was just kind of like, wow, I never really thought of myself doing something like this.

29:21

But like, I like how this feels and like this is just unique and it's giving me time to reflect and think.

And also like, this is hard.

Like my legs hurt.

Like mentally I'm kind of there and I'm not there any given run.

29:40

Anyway, suffice to say we finished that that Sunday night and after that I would say my running progression was off to the races.

Holy shit, the first OK so Oh my God.

29:58

Like the first, I just, I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that like the first kind of running challenge you take on is the is the 4 by 48.

And I yeah.

That's crazy.

I got to give credit to the fact that like you realize people close to you, whether it's family or friends, like can be a massive domino effect.

30:23

You know what I mean?

Sometimes I think you need a nudge.

And in that case, they did provide that, you know, I don't, I'm sure at some point you've had people that, you know, maybe you've given a nudge to or inspired to run or you know, you've had people talk to you about something like for me, this case, if it weren't for them, who knows?

30:44

But the camaraderie also plays into doing something like that.

If you're out there the whole weekend by yourself, I don't know how morale is, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yes, yeah.

So this is timely because this weekend I'm doing my first Ragnar relay.

31:06

Have you heard of a Ragnar?

I really am curious to hear about this because relays are something I've been slowly looking into.

Tell me about it.

So they have them all over the country.

I don't know if they're national, but it's basically it's like 200 ish miles and they have road and they also have trail.

31:27

We are doing a road and you have a team of either 1 van of six or you do 2 vans and then you have a team of 12.

And so we're doing a team of 12 and we are we're women only.

They also have like you can do mixed gender, you can do like only men, obviously.

31:46

And so we have 12 women heading up to Traverse City, MI and running down kind of the coast of Lake MI down to Muskegon.

So like they always say they call it 200 ish.

So I actually don't know how many total miles we're running.

I should know that I'm running about 18 miles and it'll be over the course of three different legs.

32:05

So I have like my first leg's like 6 something.

My second leg is like 7 miles and my third one is like 3 or something shorter.

Yeah, something like that.

So you kind of have the same challenges you've described of like when you said I'm being kind of high maintenance.

Well, I was like, dear Lord, if I could request that we, like do it where my bed was available, I would like 100% do that because my biggest fear heading into this weekend is like the lack of sleep.

32:30

Yes.

So I'm trying.

I'm like, I bought a thing of like a canister full of earplugs.

I bought like, I have eye masks already.

I'm like, OK, I don't know.

I'm bringing my my Lagoon pillow, which is like one of those fancy pillows for athletes that I have.

Yeah.

So this sounds so sick.

32:48

This is like, OK, so there's 12 of you.

Are these assuming?

I'm assuming they're all running friends.

You know, where our team name is 12 random running Hoosiers, 'cause we're all from Indiana, but we're like a random assortment of people.

33:03

So I'm the team, I'm the team captain.

My best friend is the one you talk about, like getting somebody to like inspire you to do something.

She's the one that kind of wrote me into it.

And then, you know, certainly as I've had this podcast and like, you know, met more runners in my community, there's a lot of people who have done these.

33:21

OK, so we have a mix.

I think there's only two women who've actually done 1 before.

Probably a handful of us are like serious runners where we've run marathons or training for marathons.

And then the rest are kind of just like, hey, we run.

Like my best friend hasn't trained at all.

33:37

I don't.

Think.

Like she has a little bit.

Sorry, Alyssa, if you're listening, but so it's we're not going for the course record or to win.

We're going to have fun, but there aren't people like I've had a guy on this podcast he like they went to like win and that's a whole nother ball game.

33:53

So.

Yeah, you got to be locked in.

I was only going to ask what the approach is, but I that would be mine with the relay.

Damn.

That is.

I'm assuming that'll be a whole weekend venture if you're getting 200 miles in collectively.

Yep, we start 8:00 AM Friday and we should be finished sometime like Saturday afternoon probably.

34:12

Nice.

Yeah, so.

OK, good luck.

Wow, that's, that's exciting.

I'm honestly, I'll have to hit you up to hear how that went because I haven't looked too much into relays, but I've got four guys that I'd love to do one with and that kind of thing is exactly what I've thought about.

34:28

It just sounds so fun.

I'm so I'm getting more excited, like I went to the grocery store this morning.

I could talk I but this isn't about me.

I'm going to shut up.

So, OK, so anyway, I can't believe you did that as your first kind of challenge to like run, yes.

And then and then what was next after that?

34:45

Like, you know, obviously then you've done all those miles, you're kind of like, oh, I could probably do something more.

What?

What came next?

Yeah, yeah.

So that that was very fulfilling.

And then my same brothers were going to do their first marathon as well.

So they had a running background, but they had done a marathon.

35:02

They were like, let's do this one.

They chose the Myrtle Beach Marathon specifically because, from what I understand, that is the flattest course in the entire United States to run.

Really.

That's at least what it what it was at that time.

35:17

Now I'm aware there's tons of marathons, but my brother David was like, yeah, let's choose this one.

It's super flat.

I was like, OK, we trained for that.

It's funny how you know, as you do these races, you kind of learn more about training and I can get into that later, but suffice to say training for that was a bit more off the cuff.

35:41

But as I look back on it like that didn't mean I wasn't set up for success because I think I did very well anyway.

We literally drove, drove 12 hours to Myrtle Beach the day before it.

It's funny.

I, you know, the whole, you know, ignorance is bliss idea.

35:58

It's like me and my brothers, we get in at like 8:00.

We're just trying to get dinner before the marathon the next morning and it's a vacation spot.

So every place is an hour, you know what I mean?

We're not eating till 10:00.

36:14

And I think once you start focusing on running, you know, your whole pre race routine becomes so religious that that would bother you.

But we were just kind of like, ah, we're here and we'll run it tomorrow.

But anyway, ran that I, you're, you talk about the relay, you know, some people try to win, some people go for fun.

36:34

I was like, this is my first ever marathon is cliche isn't the right word because anybody going that distance, it's a massive accomplishment.

But I was like, I just want to finish, You know what I mean?

You know that the classic like 4 hours for a marathon.

36:50

In the back of my head, I was like, wow, I would be proud of that, but I was not going to give a shit if I finished it in five.

Yeah, I started and I remember about 8 miles in passing my brother David, who I think was expecting to cook us in the race.

37:10

And you know, he texted me damn well I wasn't expecting this out of you.

And then it ended up going really well.

I ran it in like 3 hours and 25 minutes, completely outperformed what I thought I would do.

And once again, just another stepping stone of doing something hard, coming out on top of it and just gaining confidence.

37:37

I would say as I share more like that's my story is that like I've not let anything overwhelm my approach or thoughts in terms of attempting stuff.

And like every time there's been an accomplishment, it just builds confidence, which I think is huge for runners.

37:56

Yeah, Did you?

OK, So David, you passed one of your brothers.

Did you guys all start together?

It's funny you ask about the start that was that was my first ever organized race, so I'm sure you'll appreciate this.

I remember like being at the start and I was like, holy shit.

38:15

It is so like crowded and chaotic.

I don't know what I pictured, but like, like we, you know, you're, you want to start running because you're so juiced up, but then you're walking up to the finish, the start line.

And then even then there's like 100 thousands of people and like everybody's just doing that jog walk.

38:34

And I remember looking around like, wow, I have got to settle down.

Like there's just no room to move here.

So we kind of all started like that, but very quickly you kind of lock into your zone and then just start moving along.

So did you, did you guys kind of like stay together or like just since it was kind of so chaotic, you just kind of immediately just shifted apart and we're like, OK, have a good race.

38:59

All just all just shifted apart.

Have a good race, like you said.

Yeah, it is funny.

It's always like that.

Good luck, you know what I mean?

You think about something so long and then it's like, all right, it's here.

Yeah.

How many?

OK, so there that race about 1000 people.

Maybe more, but you know, I guess I think it could have been too many more, but I know it was a big Boston qualifier race.

39:22

So I think if anything, that's why there'd be people running.

But it was such an awesome learning experience and how fun like racing events can be.

Like people with the signs, the aid stations, the music.

39:37

Like you can hear about a marathon or a half marathon so much, but that whole idea of like you're going to have more adrenaline on a race day, I don't really think you can even come close to appreciate appreciating it until you actually run one.

39:54

Because I know you know what I'm talking about where it is just a different vibe completely than going and hit a hitting a 15 mile solo training run.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, and it's always like, well, now I work with a running coach and so she'll be like, OK, here's your race plan.

40:10

And I look at it and like, how in the world am I going to do that?

Are you kidding?

She's like, listen, like, just trust your training.

Your body can do this.

It's just it's.

And so once I kind of realized that that is, in fact, true.

Yeah.

You realize how much that like adrenaline and race day and the environment really plays into that.

40:28

No doubt, no doubt.

Yeah.

Did you, how far did you run?

Do you remember like what your longest training run run was?

Before that race.

Good question. 1/2 marathon, Like, no, I, I, I I don't.

40:46

Once again, though, this is this is that whole idea of like I had never done 1/2.

I, I, I don't know.

And it's weird.

Everybody's different.

I do think as I've gotten into this, I've realized I, I think I'm gifted at least a bit with realizing I have some skill with this, but also like half marathon just felt right.

41:11

I don't know.

I think sometimes my friends when they've attempted a first marathon have been like, all right, well, I need to go out and do 20 right?

And I'm like, well, there's certainly, I think research that suggests that would be helpful, But I also don't think that needs to be the end all be all.

41:27

You know what I mean?

I, I don't know, I guess you're talking about getting a coach and how many races you've run.

Trial and error with this stuff is so massive and like, I don't know.

You got to be consistent with trying to practice, to learn what works for you.

41:47

Yeah, well, I just like, I mean, obviously you're a young, you know, relatively healthy guy, you know, so you're you go out and you run a A325 and did you beat both of your brothers or where did you guys call?

OK.

Yes, yes, beat both of them.

42:04

I remember calling my dad when my finishing my legs.

I know you know that feeling it is hard.

It is hard to describe.

I literally thought something was wrong.

Like I knew they would hurt but I was like Oh my gosh, these are in agonizing pain.

42:21

You know that feeling like right when you finish where you're like.

I just want a ball crumble into a ball, yeah.

Yes, yes, yes.

I called my dad and he was like, wow, I wasn't expecting this, but that was an amazing day.

I remember we all went out and had a big pig out after me and my brothers.

42:40

Always, whenever we're pushing hard at the end of a run, we'll, I'll text.

All right?

What do we want to feast on after this?

You you come to appreciate little small stuff like that that gets you through some of the hell that late miles can be.

Yeah, yeah.

I feel like it's a little thing, but for runners who understand, you're like, yes, no, that's like exactly what gets me through some of those miles is like dreaming about the milkshake I'm going to go get.

43:03

Yes, yeah, that's you know what I'm talking about.

I know what you're talking about.

What did you eat?

Oh my gosh, I'm trying to think, you know what's funny?

And I don't, I don't think I would do this now.

But we went and got like probably $150.00 worth of Taco Bell.

43:20

Oh my God.

Oh, oh, but yeah.

And then, you know, big, big cookies and ice cream, you know, the vibe, just where you're in total bliss that is, that is so funny.

43:37

What was what was your first competitive race?

Oh boy, my first half was was it the indie mini?

It had to have been the indie mini probably and it was so so I my first marathon was in 2010 because I did the Chicago on 10/10/10.

43:53

So I can remember that that was my first marathon, but haves I started 2007.

So 2007 was my first half and my dad was the runner in our family.

Now my mom started it and then couldn't run anymore.

But they always did the indie mini.

44:09

And so my dad every year would ask me and like finally I said yes.

I don't know what got me over the edge.

Probably he just wore me down with his persistence.

As you've talked about, your dad has as well.

So yeah, I, I did that.

I, I don't really remember much of it.

I, I think I wore like a cotton T-shirt too, even like I had no idea what I was doing.

44:27

Yeah, that.

Was so funny.

OK.

So it was kind of a blur then, 'cause I feel like at this point so long ago.

Did did you think that, you know, there's obviously the jump people make from 1/2 to a full?

Did did that experience meet your expectations?

44:46

Was it maybe easier than you thought it was to go that distance your first time harder?

I'm always curious.

Yeah, you know, I don't know.

For me it, I remember thinking, which is why I'm like, I can't believe you only ran 1/2 marathon before your marathon.

Because I remember thinking like my mindset was, Oh my gosh, if I had to turn around at the end of 1/2 marathon and like run another half marathon, I could never do that.

45:11

Which a lot of people will say, and you're like, well, that's not how you train, right?

Like you train, you train so that you can, you know, do do the distance.

And so like, I would say to anybody, like anybody can run a marathon, like you just put in the put in the training.

45:28

So my first marathon is funny was about 5 hours, my Chicago Marathon.

And I did that with my dad.

We ran part I think halfway together OK.

And then the next one I did about the was about the same with my husband, my now husband about 5 hours.

45:45

And then I can't remember it was the next one or one after that.

And then I finally started getting getting faster and then I had kids and then went backwards and now I'm back in my speed era.

So now I'm working, working with a coach and now I'm like finding that I'm really in.

46:02

But it will hopefully be my my prime, which we can talk about.

We can talk about Boston because I know that's something that was it your second marathon that you did where you qualified for Boston?

Yeah.

So after that 3/24, I, I don't, I don't know, I'm a goal setter just like everybody else, but I'm also not the guy that like has his ten goals on the wall at all time.

46:26

Like I, yeah, you know what I mean?

Like I, I believe goals are important, but I also just kind of believe in like the natural flow of life.

And if you're kind of doing the right things everyday, that's going to lead to bearing fruit.

But once I got that time, it was funny.

46:44

I sat on it about a week or two and I wasn't sure if after finishing that race I would want to just chill the hell out or if I would be quote UN quote hungry.

And I definitely found myself like hungry, kind of like that progression.

I was like, all right, I don't know how easy it's going to be to trim 24 minutes to get to that vaunted 3 hour time for my age group and sex, but I know I want to try.

47:11

So it's funny and I'll to your point, I, I was 24 at the time, I think so younger guy I know is I've learned so much more about training cycles and running that, you know, running slow makes you faster.

47:29

And you know, it's like this was a ignorance is blessed situation for me.

But I remember training for that Columbus marathon.

Every time I would run, I would just go out and run as hard as I could.

Yep.

And I'm not saying that's the right way to train if you want to get faster or I guess I'm not saying I'm a believer in that, but that is what I did like and it was exhausting.

47:57

I, I bumped up my long run to about like 16 and a half, 17 for that one.

So that was the furthest I had gone for training for that.

And then the morning came, I was living in Columbus.

48:12

So it was a home environment which I think was huge.

Like I woke up in my apartment and drove 5 minutes to the start line.

Yeah, that's ideal.

Yeah, exactly.

Like you're not travelling.

I think all that stuff can play a freaking factor in it.

48:31

But it was a cool October morning, which you realize the more you run, how like nice temps you can just some days you can cook if you're feeling good.

But it started, I sprinted the whole time.

It was obviously physically exhausting, but like mentally exhausting, pushing myself like that.

48:54

Like I got about a halfway in and I think I was at an hour 23 and I was like, OK, this is possible, but I was dead.

You know what I mean?

Like that's fast.

It was like, yeah, I appreciate you saying that.

49:09

Like I was like, wow, I think I even outdid myself here.

But like, I'm here, but I also have to do this another freaking 13 miles.

I remember I got to like mile 21 and I hadn't pissed the whole race.

I stopped in a poor potty and I remember just taking some deep breaths, like where I had nothing left to give.

49:30

And I really had like a come to Jesus moment of like, man, you really have to grind these last five out.

And I did.

Finishing and beating that time definitely was fulfilling, I'll say that.

49:47

I I made it happen and it felt good, Yeah.

So amazing God 253 with a porta potty stop.

Yes, yes, you realize it's you can't just small stuff like that, you know, you got to, you got to run through the drink stops and basically pour water and Gator in on yourself.

50:06

If you want to eat fruit, you got to eat while you're running hard.

Like, yeah.

The, the one thing I'll say is it definitely.

I'm so glad I committed to that and made it happen.

And it gave me a ton of confidence, not only in running, but just the idea of, you know, if you push yourself hard, you can do things in life.

50:26

But as I've gone on with running, I I've realized, you know, as proud of that moment as I was, I was kind of pushing myself to a point that was taking the fun out of running for me, if that makes sense.

And not to say that you shouldn't have distance or time goals, but like, you know, I think it's so cool how you talk about you started in O 7 and now it's 2024 and how much like perspective you could give.

50:52

Like in my four or five year history, I'm just kind of ebbed and flowed with what I'm trying to get out of the sport, if that makes sense.

Well, and that's what I love about running.

Everybody's relationship with running is, is different and it's such a personal thing, yet it's also this amazing community at the same time.

51:15

And people are in all different stages of their journey.

And I think that's really cool.

I gosh, what year was that?

The Columbus Marathon.

That was October 2022.

And did you have a good weather day?

51:31

Oh, I mean, it was Gray out.

It was like mid 50s.

It was freaking phenomenal.

You know, it was funny.

It was, I knew I had to be 3 hours to, you know, qualify, but I finished and my mom was like, yeah, you know, I heard that although you can you beat the time, you know, you still have to sign up and sometimes there's cut offs.

51:58

And I had never looked into it for far enough and that didn't like defeat my mood.

But I was like, holy shit.

I can't fathom that.

Like people could go through all this effort and achieve this time and still get cut out of the freaking race if they wanted to run in it.

52:16

That just like blew my mind.

Yeah, I feel like this is so timely too, because they just released the BAA just released the new stuff for the new qualifying times for 2026, right.

Twenty, yeah, 26.

52:33

And so it's like another 5 minutes lower and then everyone's like, well, OK, so it's 5 minutes lower, but then you have to take into account some invisible cut off.

So you just it, it's for somebody like me who has never qualified and now aspires to, oh, it's, it's tricky because it's like, yeah, I'm, I'm gonna do that.

52:54

But yeah, I'm close to 40.

And so now at least I'm like, OK, maybe I'll, I'll wait till I get that extra cushion, you know, to be the lowest at my age group to do it.

But yeah, I, I didn't know all of that either.

Like a lot of that, the concept of that was new to me until somewhat recently when it kind of started to become like, get on my radar like crazy.

53:17

Wow, OK, yeah, I totally feel that.

I yeah, because I remember I think I had like 7 minutes of wiggle and the the cut off was 5 1/2.

So I'm going hot damn if I ran this five under and I didn't even get a chance.

Yeah, I don't know.

53:33

It's this it's this line you walk of that sucks.

Maybe you don't get the opportunity to run it.

But I think what gave me peace and I know everybody's different on this is like hell, I earned the time, you know what I mean?

Like at the end of the day, that's what I think I will be proud of.

53:50

You know, a race is just a race.

I know some people would say screw that, I want to run, but I don't know.

That was that was my experience with that.

Yeah, I know.

I got to figure out where I am with that because I do really want to go.

And it's like, well, yeah, maybe if I get the time and I get cut out, then it's like, OK, I'll go raise a ton of money for a great organization and still go, you know, and that's a whole another thing.

54:16

I, I think.

I think, yeah, anybody who goes, no matter how they get there, great.

You know, I, I don't have any, any feelings one way or another about, you know, charity runners or, you know, whatever.

No, no doubt.

And I mean, looking at your background briefly, I have a feeling you could easily make that happen.

54:34

Running for charity, like, you know what I mean?

I I don't know, I've just realized that's its own thing with these marathons that seemingly have even more and more demand every year, but like there's more in one way to go about them.

Yeah, yeah, it's true.

So then did you run Boston in 23 it?

54:50

Was weird the cut off was September to run in 23.

I literally I literally didn't run it till April of this year so I had a year and a half break between qualifying.

It was funny.

It's like that was such a goal of mine and then I qualified, but the race was so far off when it actually happened.

55:11

It just like it's funny how life goes, you know what I mean?

It almost seemed like it was never going to happen, but ran that.

It's funny being there.

You realize you were with some competitive ass people, just the amount of the marathon shoes and, you know, like, I'm talking to this guy.

55:31

He's like, yeah, I'm trying to run it and two hours and 20 minutes and I'm like, holy shit, man.

This is just very, you know, I know I deserve to be here, but also out of my league, if that makes sense.

Yeah, wow.

But that's that's the one time in my life running that race where I can genuinely say I felt like a quote UN quote athlete, like all the fans and everything.

55:54

I was like, wow, I don't know if I ever pictured this for myself.

So that was fun.

Yeah, quote UN quote athlete.

And then you ran 3/16. 316 yes yeah, that race was hard.

56:09

You talk about temps like you ever.

Was really hot.

Yeah, I forgot.

And it's funny how you say really hot, like I think it got to like 7778.

And in my head I'm like, keep in mind, you know, thank God I have run any competitive race with amazing high 50s Gray clouds, no humidity, something in my head.

56:36

Oh 75 sun's out.

That sounds nice.

It kicked my ass.

Seriously.

Yeah.

Like I'm assuming with your experience, you've even entered into the thresholds of the eighty 80s and a like, right?

56:54

Oh, not for a full, thankfully, but probably for a OK, OK.

It's just it's when you're trying to run hard, it is brutal.

Yeah, yeah, heat.

My body in particular does not like the heat.

Yeah.

57:11

That's funny.

So yeah, it was.

It was a hot day.

That was a hard course for sure, but it was good.

I didn't really have a goal with that one other than to run as hard as I could.

And now what a blessing I got to do that.

57:29

Did your brother, are your brothers, Where are they in their journey to Boston because they're a couple years younger?

Are they interested in that or is that not something they'll do?

So they are not right now the rhythm that them and I have is ultra marathons.

57:47

So I Remember Me and my one brother did a 50K to start, which is 31 miles in Las Vegas and then we just did A50 mile or last November.

But it seems like their journey right now is like they don't run as much religiously as me during the week, you know what I mean?

58:08

But like our big bonding thing is pick up ultra marathon every year in the training cycle, go on a weekend long run and then like go get some awesome food and like watch a movie or some football after.

58:24

So that's kind of the, but we're in with our journey is they're not going out and trying to run a speed 10K to get faster.

It's more just like finding some random ultra marathon each year and trying to do something hard.

58:42

I can appreciate that.

It's so interesting.

Like just the difference between cultures is you can appreciate because you've experienced both of them is like the roadrunners being like the guy you described at the start of Boston who's like super serious, like, you know, just really intense.

59:00

And then you've got, you know, the ultra trail people who are like, just, you know, just there to enjoy.

They could they don't, they just take it really easy.

I'm, I'm more right now like the Roadrunner kind of uptight kind of runner.

And I'm OK saying that it's fine.

59:17

Maybe someday I will.

I have people trying to recruit me to the trails and there's something that interests me, but we'll see.

So can I ask briefly about, you know, you talk about running and then you had kids and now you're into getting faster, which like, I think all that is pretty sweet.

59:37

What was what was the vibe after you had your kids?

I'm assuming that was hard to get back into that.

Like what's been the progression there?

Yeah, it was.

It was hard.

I with my first, I ran a couple half marathons while I was actually pregnant, which I was lucky enough to be able to do.

59:55

Really.

Yeah, which was, which was why.

Not with the first one.

But with the first one I did, and then I stayed really active in my second pregnancy too.

But yeah, after, after my first kid was born, Yeah.

It's just one of those things where when you fall in love with a sport like that, you're just, I was trying to figure out when can I do this again?

1:00:14

Like, when can I get back to it?

I'm like chomping at the bit, like six weeks.

When can I go?

And so then, but yeah, I just started slow and didn't, you know, didn't worry about pace for quite a while.

And then I had a friend who was, let's see, she was born.

My first was born in 2017 in July.

1:00:30

And then I ran the New York City Marathon in November of 2018.

So 'cause my friends were doing it.

And I was like, well, if my friends are going, this is my chance.

Like I should go, this is my chance to go.

So I did, I did that for charity.

And then after my, after my second, I did a full marathon in November of 2022, one that I, if you want to go fast again, you got to come to Indianapolis for that because the Indianapolis Monumental is super duper flat.

1:00:59

Definitely a great BQ course.

But yeah, so I did that in 22 just to see what I could do after having a kid, my second kid.

Absolutely.

You know, it's my first time ever, like, running a full marathon, having a coach.

OK, that was really interesting too, that experience, because then I felt like I actually did it the right way.

1:01:20

And at the end, I didn't feel as much like it was hard, but I didn't feel like I was going to immediately die, which is how I've felt on my other marathons.

So yeah.

And then last year?

Prep and the coaching played value.

It really did.

I can't be here's the deal, like you being a 20 something, right?

1:01:36

It's like you're early on in your career.

You know, the expensive all this stuff with running gets out of control, right?

Like, but I will say like having a coach, I always thought was like for people who were like elite, who were like concert athletes have coaches, but like, why would an everyday runner ever have a coach?

1:01:53

But now I know why.

It's like almost like a gym membership, like I'm self motivated enough where if somebody tells me what to do, I'll I'll go do it.

I just don't know right, the right things to do.

And so now that I have somebody telling me that, it's been really helpful.

Nice.

OK, so then what's next for you?

1:02:09

Well, I I'm.

Training the relay.

Right Relay.

I'm training for the Monumental again this year, so it's in November again.

I'm assuming you get some cool attempts for that one.

It can be.

I can be really nice.

So last year's excellent weather, the year before when I did the full for the first, like the full monumental for the first time, was so windy.

1:02:31

It was insane, insanely windy.

But that didn't bother me for whatever reason.

I think just because I was out there just to finish.

I was just there to do it and it was fine.

Yeah.

So hopefully.

OK, nice.

But yeah, all.

Right, so back to you.

You got to stop asking me questions because you get me.

I'll start talking.

1:02:47

I'll start talking about running all day.

I want to talk about the 50K and the 50 Miller.

So how did you pick them because you said you just kind of pick a random one.

And then what were your experiences like at both of those?

Yeah, yeah, great question.

I think to your point about, you know, evolution of running and how everybody has different approaches to it.

1:03:10

We had done the marathons.

I had gone really hard with Columbus and then my one brother Michael, you're talking about the twins.

My one brother got serious with his girlfriend and kind of chilled out from running.

I don't have to get into that.

But you know, my one brother was just like, hey, man, I've been looking.

1:03:29

I'd like to go further than a marathon.

There's this race out in Vegas and I was like, how'd you find this?

He was like, I was just Googling and like, once again, I, I really do believe in the approach, at least for myself of like, don't think too hard about this stuff.

1:03:45

Like, no, it's easy for me.

I don't have a family and like, I'm a single dude living with my friends, so I have more flexibility to do crap like this.

But he sent it and I was like A50 KII wasn't sure about ultra marathons or, you know, you'd think 31, although it's further than a marathon, might, wouldn't maybe qualify as an ultra.

1:04:08

But then there's the definition of anything past 26.2 is an ultra whatever.

We thought the idea of going further was fun.

So we, me and him flew out to Las Vegas in March and we showed up.

We just drove out of the city of Las Vegas and pulled up to this like side off road, off the Interstate.

1:04:34

And they're like, all right, big pit, big pickups 30 minutes before, you know what I mean?

Oh my God.

Yeah, so like after doing these legit marathons, this was super bare bones, like 70 people, like bib pickup, there's going to be 1 photographer and like four aid stations where there's like pretzels and Gatorade and that's it.

1:04:56

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And then like the route was literally just 15 minutes out or 15 miles out and 15 miles back.

You know what I mean?

Wow.

It was 13 out, 13 back.

And then you had to do like a 2 1/2 and back to get the 31 in.

1:05:14

So we did a whole training cycle for that.

And I remember this was once again a good run for me.

I I got back and I'd finished the 31 and they're like, Oh no, no, no, you need to head back and out and do your 5th.

1:05:30

And I was like, no, I'm done.

And so I won that race, which was hilarious in my head.

I will say there was only 65 people and I think I was kind of the youngest, most in shape dude.

Not I am proud of the accomplishment, but I don't know.

1:05:49

They, they handed me a water bottle.

They were like, Congrats, man.

So it, it was just like a polar opposite experience, But I I liked that too.

Like I got to talk with the race directors.

I know I mentioned I'd love to do a race.

1:06:04

Like I realized like this is just kind of a simple event they put on for locals for the most part.

I mean, we were sure as hell the only kids from Ohio that went out there for that.

Has.

So much, yeah, that was kind of the 50K experience, which.

1:06:24

Go ahead.

Did you get more than a water bottle?

Like did you get a belt buckle or like an award?

No, no, no, really.

No awards for this one.

No, no, no, no.

OK, which brother went?

David.

David.

Michael.

My brother Michael did.

Michael well, if he listens to this, Michael, you got to get will something on Etsy like a belt buckle.

1:06:42

They have custom stuff like make him a a first place thing for God's sakes.

Yeah, so I I saw that.

I forget what it's called, but it looks like you started a business where you provide runners with gifts.

1:06:57

Correct.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That is good.

So that's where it's funny, Yes, I sure as hell did not get something like what you would provide, I don't think.

Yeah.

But then one other quick story about the 50 Miller.

This was the JFK 50, Miller.

1:07:13

Yeah, so my brother in law's doing that, I think.

It's so funny you say that because I was going to say for an ultra this one seems to be kind of a well renowned 1.

OK.

Because I think it's called JFK because John F Kennedy had this initiative for physical fitness that this was like the first ultra marathon started in the United States for the vibe.

1:07:35

So a ton of people ran that.

That's in Maryland.

We did that in November.

But a quick funny story about that.

I'm not sure what you like listening to, if anything, when you run, but I I'll definitely do music or podcasts like my dad's like man, you know what happened to old school running where you just go out and listen to nothing?

1:07:56

I'm like, dad, I don't know, man, I spent enough time doing this.

I want some entertainment.

Yeah.

We signed up for the race in about two weeks before my brother, and this was with both my brothers.

This time my brother texted me.

He's looking at the race rules and it says no earbuds or audio allowed.

1:08:15

Yeah.

And that was a holy cow moment.

Though just the thought of 50 miles with no audio was a bit of a pill to swallow for about a week, especially considering all the training happened with audio for me at least.

1:08:34

But another prime of example of when you're there running the race and you have people around you, it's funny how you just are a bit more able to make things happen, I feel like.

Yeah, it's funny.

I've dabbled without using it.

1:08:50

And I'm actually debating this weekend whether or not I'll even bring my headphones because in starting this podcast, I talked to, you know, a ton of runners.

And I always ask at the end, like, what's your favorite song?

And so a lot of people don't listen to music.

And at first, I was just like, appalled.

I was like, how could you possibly not have music to like amp you up and like, don't you have this, you know, get a lot of energy from that.

1:09:11

And people, there's a lot of people who do not listen to music at all.

And I so occasionally I've done it where I've gone out and not had my headphones.

I haven't done that for a long run yet, but I also have started getting into listening more, listening to podcasts and that or even audio books.

1:09:28

Like there's a Peloton instructor who I really love.

She just launched an audio book and I so I listened to that and it was amazing.

Like listening to her talking about all her ultra marathons was really inspiring.

While I was running.

I was like, if she can do that, I can do this like kind of a thing.

1:09:44

But OK, OK, it sounds like you've had a similar experience to me then, because I I did that.

Like it can be nice and you get some more reflection time when you're silent.

But I've also rarely gone out there and been like, Oh my gosh, this is just the best thing ever.

1:10:00

I could go without headphones the rest of my life.

Right, right, same.

So but I but to your point, like when you get to a place where they're like, you cannot have these and then all of a sudden mentally you're like, how in the world am I going to get over that hurdle?

Yeah.

How did that so how did it go and wait was the 50 Miller before or after the 50K?

1:10:19

After.

So that was on last year and then you did Austin this year?

Yeah.

So we did the 50 Miller in November of 2023.

It was a week before Thanksgiving.

I think that race started at like 6:00 AM It took me about 10 hours.

1:10:36

The 1st 15 of that race were through trails and I'm not much of A trail runner.

I'm I'm more of a road runner even a training for these trail ultras.

I I prefer the road like I freaking love running on the road, but that was like rocky terrain hills like you got to keep your eyes down the whole time looking at roots That kicked my ass.

1:11:02

But describe the last 10 of the 50 is like rolling hills on road.

And I was kind of, I think went into that a bit more cocky than I should have been.

I mean, my quads on the uphills were destroyed.

1:11:21

You're fighting mental demons there.

I and I know you know this.

I think The funny thing always is as you talk about building confidence and gain more experience with the sport, it's funny how like mile 40 through 47 you were just, at least I was just feeling so much like, not self pity because I signed up for it.

1:11:41

But damn, I'm hurting.

This sucks.

I have nothing left to give, you know, like I can't run these uphills.

But then you get to mile 47, 1/2, mile 48, and all the sudden your pace picks up and your vibe changes and you're optimistic.

1:11:58

And then you see the finish line and you can just really start, start cooking for the last half mile.

And it's like, I guess it never fails to blow my mind how strong like your mind is with stuff like that.

You know what I mean?

1:12:14

Yeah.

We're like, if you close in, you just get stronger naturally.

I I don't know, I I think it is such an awesome part of running.

I think that was so well said.

Well, I have a podcast guest.

If you haven't listened to her episode, it's Shay Aquilano.

1:12:31

And her mantra, which took me a second to wrap my head around, is it never always gets worse?

Meaning, meaning like, yeah, no matter what, it's not going to just keep getting worse.

At some point, you're going to come out of this valley, right?

And so you just have to mentally know that and just say, yeah, this is tough, but I'm gonna I'm gonna get out of this and just push your way through it until you do.

1:12:54

She is very talented.

She's 23.

She she just ran 100 Miller out West and was third place female.

God damn, yeah OK, I'll definitely check her out.

She's amazing.

She's just she is incredible.

She actually ended up getting disqualified, which that's a whole nother story.

1:13:10

Poor thing.

It was because of a like wrong turn in the night time, like somebody pointed her the wrong direction.

She went a couple miles off course anyway, But she is she's going to be one of those names like that, you know, in ultra running.

I told her that and I I'm standing by that.

But anyway, I think what you just said there will about mental toughness is so true.

1:13:30

And ironically, Shay was actually, she studied, I'd forget the right name for it, but like neurology, like she's like a like brain science, like at Notre Dame, ironically.

And I think that's what makes her a really talented runner too, is like understanding how the brain works and how to apply that to running.

1:13:49

Right, right.

'Cause it's 90, it's like 99% mental.

I keep that percentage keeps going up for me too.

It's like, yeah.

It's it's so funny you say that because I completely agree with you and like I every time I go out, I learn that more and more.

1:14:08

It's like when I'm doing like a slow long run.

It's funny.

I'll tell my non runner friends about it and I'll be like, honestly, like today was just boring.

Like mentally I had to like and I don't try to say that in a place of condescension or like cocky.

1:14:24

It's just like I've run enough.

I know that my cardio is there, but like, yeah, I've been out there for 2 1/2 hours and frankly, I just want to relax and chill out.

And that's your point of like, you have to gain mental strength when things are hard or tedious.

1:14:43

It's monumental to like development.

Yes, yeah, 1000%.

So what do you I didn't ask you what you listen to?

What are your favorite podcasts?

So there is this podcast.

I have this one that I just finished called Oops the Podcast.

1:15:01

It is 2 comedians.

I am not a big comedy podcast guy because I all think they're kind of raunchy and bathroom humor and all that, but these guys are, I guess, a bit more fancy and sophisticated with theirs.

1:15:20

So it's just two New York City comedians that I fell in love with that one.

But then I also like Rich Roll.

I don't know if you've ever heard of him.

I was turned on to him by another guest on the podcast and I really enjoy his stuff.

Yeah.

OK, yeah, I mean he clearly is got it had a big journey with running and health and lifestyle.

1:15:39

So he's great.

I like listening to podcasts about like must like.

They basically take a concept that has been pitched to society is either super beneficial or super detrimental and do a deep dive into how true that actually is.

1:15:55

Like from foam rollers or protein bars or energy drinks.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, that's super.

Interesting.

Just kind of, you know, that whole what line you walk between, some things are made out so horribly and others are made out like so awesome, but maybe there's kind of a middle ground with them.

1:16:13

Yeah, tell me about it.

As a parent, I could not appreciate that more.

It's like, can we actually get a study on whether or not like, feeding my kid goldfish is actually gonna like.

Yes.

Super detrimental to their well-being.

I go, That's so funny you say that.

I can't even imagine in your position because I know I will be like that too.

1:16:30

You don't know.

Yeah.

It's like, I don't, I don't know.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah, podcasts.

I think you talk about getting hyped up for a run.

Podcasts are like, I think something you learn is like, I love listening to like house music, like electronic music, which like is fun, but there are times where you have a song you really jam into and all the sudden you find yourself sprinting and dead and you're not maintaining your cadence.

1:16:57

What I love about podcasts is it's a good way if you're trying to stay even.

Yeah, that's.

True.

Stay even keeled because I literally will have people like yeah, this song came on and all of a sudden I found myself exhausted and I get it.

Yeah, yeah.

1:17:12

I had a guy once who told me he was, he like, curates his playlist for the race he's running and like the plan, the plan that he has for that race, which I find fascinating because it's like he's like, I, I want my good songs to be right at this time where I know I'm going to need it.

1:17:29

I'm like, that's pretty, that's pretty smart.

I don't ever do that.

Mine's always just like I have a running playlist that's just like on shuffle.

So very calculated.

His was very calculated.

I've also found like now that I have a code back to the coaching thing, like my workouts are programmed to my Garmin so that if I go too fast, like it'll buzz at me.

1:17:47

So I'm like OK, that helps too so that I don't.

Yeah, yeah.

Go too.

Crazy.

OK, nice.

Yeah, so OK, the JFK 50 Mylar, I'm like 90% sure that's what my brother-in-law did.

I was thinking I got off track in your years, so you did it last November.

1:18:04

He's doing it this November, which my sister-in-law was not super thrilled with because they have three kids and he is doing, he did London this year, he's doing Berlin this month.

And then he signed up for A50 mile race and I think she might murder him, but wow.

1:18:19

So he's getting after it, holding cow.

And as far as I know, he is still doing that. 50 Miller, I've been like hesitant to check in on that for his, you know, safety for safety purposes.

But I can see why that'd be hard.

They have 3 little kids and it is hard to do all of that and have, you know, work and all the things but.

1:18:38

Totally.

Yeah, I'll be excited to see what he what he thinks of that race.

So.

Yeah, OK.

Yeah, cool.

OK.

The main thing that I thought also was really interesting was your work life right now is interesting.

It's kind of different.

You work for the Air Force.

1:18:55

Yeah, got an opportunity out of college to work for the Air Force.

It's hilarious.

Like even to this day when I tell people I work for the Air Force to be like, oh, thank you for your service, but I am not.

Active to you like.

There's, you know what I mean?

1:19:11

Like I'll be at the bar.

They'll be like, Oh my gosh, thanks, man.

I'll be like, Nah, Nah, relax.

But I get it.

I wasn't familiar with this either.

You can work for the Air Force as a civilian.

Right.

I am a program manager.

I did some rotations and now I guess in simplest terms, the United States has like allies that I think people would understand.

1:19:35

And so I I can speak to this.

The program is unclassified. the United States is trying to form a partnership with Vietnam.

So I'm on a foreign military program with Vietnam where they are getting some trainer aircraft planes.

So I just am a part of a team that works that program.

1:19:54

I work out of Dayton and then I've gotten to go there twice this year and do some runs there, which has been nuts, getting to run in new places like that.

That I mean, the runs don't even feel like exercise at that point, you know what I mean?

You're kind of just taking in the scenery.

1:20:10

Yeah, that's the best.

I call those vacation runs, whether it's a work trip or not, like when you're just somewhere else running vacation because it just, you know, we're different.

Yeah, it's the best.

Wow, so you went twice this year.

Will you continue to go I?

1:20:27

Think so the the the planes are supposed to be delivered in November, so I think I'll get to go then after that I'm not sure as much, but it's been a blessing to get to go to Asia.

I feel like so many people talk about going to Europe.

Another example where I never pictured myself going to Asia or doing a 16 hour flight, but no, it's been very cool.

1:20:52

We went to, I was with this woman who wanted to get some Hokas, so we went to a running store in one of the cities there and the kid had all of his.

They had all the medals up and there was 11 flight, the Ho Chi Mid City Marathon that I guess happens there in January.

I was like, man, one day getting to do this would be like such a treat.

1:21:11

It's just once again spending freaking $2000 to fly over there.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's just you got to be like, OK, actually the planes were delivered in November, but I got to check on them in January.

I got to go back.

Make sure you're still there, still operational.

Yeah, no.

1:21:27

Well, and to your point earlier too, there's just so many, just so many places you can take running, like especially when you explore the ultra world or you get into trail stuff or not to mention shorter distance stuff like which is, you know, which a lot of people listening to this I would imagine do shorter stuff, might not even run marathons.

1:21:45

So it's like, yeah, there's a lot, but that's really cool.

That's really neat.

Right.

Thanks.

Yeah.

So I guess I have to ask you the end of the podcast questions now.

So we're going to do it.

OK so first question, what is your favorite running mantra and or song?

1:22:06

I was laughing when you sent this question.

This may sound silly, but it is silly.

So favorite mantra?

It is time to mow, MOW.

So basically this is me and my brother's mantra.

1:22:25

My brother said it once and I thought it was the funniest thing because it hit hard.

Like we were on like a 22 mile training run and he was like 8 miles down.

He's like time to mow.

I got 14 miles left.

So like we've never really even talked about it between us, but I think we all have our own understanding of that mantra.

1:22:46

It's like when you go to mow the grass, like you just got to put your head down and do the work.

Some people like mowing the grass, some people hate it, but it's got to get done.

So like whenever we are about to go on a long run, we'll be like get the lawn mowers out, like time to mow.

1:23:01

And it's just kind of this ideology I think of like we're just kind of going to work.

But it's it's more fun than anything else.

So that's great.

I would say right now at least that's the mantra.

That's a good one.

That's a good one.

OK, And then what about song?

1:23:17

You mentioned you like house music.

My gosh, a specific song.

I will not give a song, but I'll give a special shout out.

1:23:32

If anyone is listening to this episode and is familiar with this guy, I will be very excited to hear it.

There's this guy named Chris Lake from London.

He does house music and me and a couple of my buddies have seen him 78910 times.

1:23:49

He's just got some music that gets me juiced up.

I'll listen to anything really.

I love music but yeah like house music, high BPN music always like when it's a sunny day just gets me juiced up to run.

OK, I'll have to go listen to that.

1:24:04

And it'll probably either either I'll like it or it'll make me feel really old.

One of the two things.

I don't know.

Yeah, maybe both.

That's funny.

And then what is your next?

What's your next finish line?

Yeah, so me and my brothers are heading to Minnesota two weeks from Saturday to run at 100K.

1:24:27

Which is 62. 62 Yep, I'm glad you knew that.

It's the the the disparity between like 50 Miller then 100K like between kilometers and miles is always a crack up to me.

Yeah, it messes me up because you're like, wait, how?

OK, Yeah.

1:24:43

I I think it's just like meant to kind of give more well-rounded numbers, but deep down I think the ultimate goal for us, My brother Michael always jokes like once I run 100 miles, I can rest easy.

I think our goal would be to attempt that at some point.

1:24:59

So we've taken the marathon 50K50 Miller now that a slow progression towards that distance.

So yeah, that's in two weeks.

And I was reading the prep packet, I guess they said be on the lookout for black bears.

1:25:15

It's a high likelihood that you'll see one.

So I'm very curious to see if that ends up happening.

That'll be pretty nuts.

I just got like super scared.

So yeah, don't see one.

OK but you can't run 100K with bells on you because that would be annoying as I'll get out but Oh my.

1:25:32

Gosh, yeah.

Yeah, that's what we used to do, like hiking in Montana.

You had to.

We'd wear, like bells just to, like, board off the bears and.

Yeah.

OK.

Well, all right.

Well, I hope you can run really fast if you see a bear.

Actually, that's probably not what you're supposed to do, but.

1:25:50

It's funny you say that.

I was thinking in my head.

I was like, I bet if I'll see one, even if I'm exhausted, that will give me some sort of kick.

Right.

Yeah, hopefully you don't like, hallucinate and see.

Yeah, You're like, oh, there's a bear.

Yeah.

So yeah.

OK.

So 50 miles, you said 10 hours, so I don't know like couple of hours more than that ish or I don't know.

1:26:12

Yeah, we'll, I was looking at the past results given how it went in 2021 and 2022, I think I could win this one.

But then I saw a dude last year who is, I think over 50 or 60 that ran the 62 in under 10.

1:26:30

I could not.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's cooking.

I cannot do that right now.

So I definitely am going to attempt to run this one well, but I, I don't know.

We'll see.

I I can't act like I'm a beast on the trails, but it'll be fun.

1:26:47

Will you have?

So is it all on trail?

This one.

Trail, gravel, grass.

From what I understand, it's 231 mile loops.

OK, So I haven't done a distance where it's kind of repeated, but we'll see how that goes.

1:27:04

I have a buddy coming from Denver who's going to run like the last 15 with me.

I've never really done that with a quote UN quote pacer.

So that'll be fun.

I mean, that's a first for me.

So definitely excited to get to do it.

1:27:19

It's a blessing.

Yeah, What's the name of the race?

It is called the fire tower trail races.

I guess there's a fire tower that each loop you go up and down it.

They say run it, but it's a bunch of steps.

So that's kind of the thing.

1:27:35

I guess the metal is a big fire tower.

So that out to those guys.

I think there will be maybe about 100 runners for the 100K We'll see.

Cool.

All right.

Well, that's amazing.

I can't wait to hear how it goes.

1:27:50

You'll have to tell me.

Yeah, yeah.

I appreciate the the wishes of good luck.

I'm excited.

And then you'll get to 100 miles.

You got, I mean, gosh, you call, you say a slow progression, but like, Jesus Christ, like some people, it takes a long time.

But yeah, it's pretty cool to see.

1:28:06

What?

You've done?

Yeah, I appreciate it.

Yeah, well, and thanks again for getting on a call with a complete stranger that your dad introduced you to.

Yeah, no doubt, Ali, I appreciate it.

It was good getting to know you a bit.

I I, I try to be a bit more conversational, but I know I was technically the one being interviewed here, which is always funny.

1:28:25

But thanks for having a common dude on here like me.

I guess my one piece of advice to anyone, I'm no one special with this stuff.

It's just something I like to do in my free time.

If you have, If you want to get better at this, just do it as much as you can.

1:28:42

I think it's cliche but like that whole 10,000 hours approach of mastering someone.

Like the only thing I've done is be consistent with it and that has reaped results, you know what I mean?

Mm, hmm, Yep, it's good advice.

1:28:59

All right.

Well, thank you to everybody who has listened as well.

And I always say at the end, happy running.

Happy running.

Happy running.

Thanks, Sally.

And if you enjoyed this week's episode, please share, rate and review.