Finish Lines & Milestones: Episode 84

This is a Sandy Boy Productions podcast.

Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones, a podcast that celebrates the everyday runner.

I'm your host, Ali Brett Knocker.

Whether you're a season marathoner, half marathoner, ultra marathoner, prefer shorter distances or just getting started, if you run, you are a runner.

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And every runner has a story.

Join me each week as I share these stories and we cross finish lines and celebrate milestones together.

This podcast is brought to you by Athlete Pouquets.

Celebrate the finish lines and milestones of the people you love by visiting athletepouquets.com.

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Hello and welcome to episode 84 as I record this.

It's Thanksgiving, so happy Thanksgiving.

I hope you had a great holiday.

Hope you're still enjoying friends, family, great food.

0:56

My favorite is pumpkin pie, so that's what I will be eating a lot of.

I'm also responsible for making them in my family, so hopefully they turned out good.

And I just got off the Peloton Turkey burn run with Alex Toussaint, which was really fun.

It's been a long time since I've done an actual live run on my treadmill.

1:14

I hope that you enjoyed a Gobble Gallop, whatever ours is called here.

There's a drumstick dash as well.

Turkey Trots.

Hope you had a great day.

Hope you're still enjoying the weekend.

And this week's guest I'm so excited to introduce you to.

1:30

He was actually in Indianapolis for the Monumental Marathon earlier this month, but sadly we did not get a chance to meet in person.

So hopefully that happens at some point.

But as this episode is launched on November 29th, it is Native American Heritage Day.

So Caleb McCoy is actually himself of Native American heritage.

1:50

We talk about his upbringing during this episode.

We also talk about an incredible journey he had on the Trail of Tears.

We talk more about that what that is as well.

But I was made aware of Caleb's story through Instagram, and he was actually recently featured in Runner's World.

2:06

There's a documentary coming out about him.

But Caleb grew up struggling from the young age of 11 with addiction.

So we talked about how he overcame that.

And it's just an incredibly inspiring story.

Caleb's energy is infectious.

2:24

And next year he's going to run across the United States of America.

No big deal.

He calls it Transcon.

So now I call it Transcon, you know, for short, just to, you know, transcontinental jaunt.

But really excited to support him and cheer him on in those endeavors.

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And I know you're just going to love to get a chance to get to know him throughout this conversation and quick while I've still got you.

This comes out the day before Small Business Saturday, of course, And this episode is brought to you by Athlete Bouquets.

But if you are trying to support a small business and perhaps, you know, not wanting to spend any money, a great way to do that is through sharing, liking, you know, So certainly this podcast share rate review athlete bouquets on Instagram.

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If you have anything from my business, share it, tag it so others can be made aware of it.

You can follow me at Ally ALOYT Brett Brett under score runs on Instagram.

And you know, as I continue to support other women as well, I'll be shouting out other businesses that you should go check out during this holiday season too.

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So thank you.

OK, now enjoy the episode.

Hey, Caleb, how's it going?

Hey, what's up Ally?

It's going well.

Just sat down and smashed a bagel here and drinking some coffee.

I'm excited for this conversation.

I told you everyone's going to be bummed they miss watching you eat it.

3:51

Ali was trying to watch me eat and I was like, I'm turning the camera off Ali.

Sorry, not going to show we don't know each other that well yet soon.

So I I want to start off by congratulating you on your marathon PR at, at Indy at the Monumental.

Congrats.

4:07

Thank you.

Yeah, it was it was a magical day for sure.

And it's, it was a hard fought training block, lots of honestly leading up to it, you know, trying to hit this goal of sub 240, which is something I've been aiming for since Andy in 2022.

4:28

And I've failed at it five different occasions.

And so to have it all come together on November 9th was was pretty special.

Yeah, and you crushed, you crushed it like 237 not even like just under that 2 for you like.

4:45

Yeah, really.

Got it 223642 2:36. 42 so you could even.

Say 36, God, yeah, 559 pace.

And that was like, I was like, if I can run 237, I will be happy.

5:03

If I can run that's, you know, cross that 6 minute threshold per mile, like I'd be over the moon.

So everything, I mean, I guess we'll get into it in just a minute, but it didn't go Florida State, that's for damn sure.

We had, we had some stuff happen at the beginning of the race and everything.

5:22

But you know, it was it was a perfect day as far as weather goes to race a marathon.

So yeah, all the stars in line, the stars in line and we crushed it.

Yeah.

Well, especially compared to 2022 because that year, yeah, what I call the wind year because it was just horrible.

5:41

It was, it was brutal.

And I was, I was actually proud that I ran 24047 in that weather, you know?

Yeah.

So to come back though, and, and yeah, to have that type of performance was very, very special.

It was it was one of those days that you dream of as a marathoner.

5:59

Yeah, yeah, I, I also PR.

And so it was a magical day for me too, personally.

And a lot of other people did.

And I'm just so, so happy.

Like Robert Jackson, who you met in 2022.

He runs with PBT, which a local coach, Matt Ebersol.

6:17

And I can't believe you met him years ago.

And here I thought you met him this year during the race.

But did you guys share, share some miles together?

We did, we did.

So I met Rob last year at the Expo last year.

So I'm a running coach.

That's what I do full time.

We had our team race at Indy last year.

6:35

And so I was at the Expo picking up bibs, you know, hanging out, doing all the things and Rob was shout out Rob Jackson.

That's my boy.

Rob was working the Expo and he and I were just chatting about racing and stuff.

And we we became friends and started following one other one another on Instagram.

6:52

We've got to hang out at Boston before he and his wife just hung.

We had we had dinner with with my wife and I and we just stayed in contact over the past year.

And he messaged me about a week before the race and he's like, bro, what are you trying to run?

7:08

And I was like 237 or die.

And he was like, dude, he said me too.

He's like, I'm sending you my paces.

Let me know what you think about this.

So he screenshot of his paces.

I looked at it.

It was a little bit more aggressive than what I was going to do, but I told myself like, you know, I've worked hard for this.

7:26

I'm I'm prepared.

I was going to take a risk and go out a little bit more aggressive than I wanted to and knowing that I was going to have Rob out there with me to push me and we could just, you know, feed off one another's energy and everything.

I can just click off the miles together.

I was like, I want to go for it.

7:41

And so, yeah, we we came to that agreement.

And so funny, crazy story, like when I said race, they didn't go Florida State.

I get down to the start.

I drive from the hotel.

I'm staying in South Indy, drop 1015 like 10 to 15 minutes outside the city down to the start.

7:59

I'm like really close to Lucas Oil Stadium.

I get out, I start going through my warm up, going through my drills.

I look at my wife Caitlin, and I was like, like the color just left my face.

And she was like, what is it?

I said I left my jails at the hotel room and she was like, you're freaking kidding me.

8:18

And so it is like 7:30.

So we got 30 minutes before the gun goes off and and she's like, I want to go down.

I want to go back to the hotel, get you jealous.

But I was like, you're not going to catch me.

Like, you're going to have to find me on the course.

And she's like, OK, so she goes.

8:34

I jog down to the start.

I got my sweatshirt on and my joggers trying to stay warm.

And I called my friend Jenny Clayton, who coaches for my previous coach, Jeff Cunningham.

She was in town and I was like, Jenny, I was like, do you have any go jails?

And I've been, I've been training to, to run with Morton.

8:52

And she was like, I got 3.

She's like, I got 3 go jails.

Where are you at?

And I was like, I'm down here where the crowds are AT.

And she was like, I don't know if I can get down there and find you in time.

And I was like, we'll just get on the right side of the road and I will find you when we start.

And so Allie, I literally, they wouldn't let me into the corrals.

9:13

It was like about two minutes ago.

And I'm trying to get into the corrals.

So I have to run down to the finish line, jump over the barricade, run back down to the corrals, the start line.

I step into the corrals with like 45 seconds to go.

No, you don't.

9:28

Oh my God.

And Rob turns around and looks at me.

And he was like, bro, what's up?

And so like, we make eye contact.

I was like, OK, there's Rob.

Gun goes off half a, you know, like a quarter mile in Jenny's on the side of the road.

Got her, you know, got her hand up in the air with the jails.

9:44

And I was like thank God, like at least I know that I got 3 jails to get me through the first hour.

Yeah.

And grab the jails.

I'm running with my phone and I'm running behind Sarah Hall.

Like I'm, I'm like just so nervous and anxious because of, you know, all the chaos going on.

10:02

Yeah.

And I'm running right behind Sarah Hall.

And I'm like, OK, Sarah Hall is about to drop a 110 half, so I need to back off a little bit.

I'm running way too fast.

So I like, I had the awareness to like, you know, recognize that.

And I pull back.

10:17

So mile 3 is my slowest mile of the block or slowest mile of the race.

And it was like a 632.

And like I just, I wasn't looking at my watch.

I just slowed down and I was like, holy shit.

Like I cannot be running 632 and hit my goal.

So pick it back up.

I see Rob.

10:33

I hear Rob talking like it's about right around mile 4, like I hadn't seen him at all.

My wife catches me at mile 5.

She's got the jails holding them out.

Grab my jails and right after that, it was like around four or five, right after that, Rob comes up behind me and then I'll just fall in with him.

10:52

And then that's when we started racing together was about more mile, mile four or five.

Wow.

So, yeah, and from that point on, it was just dialed.

We were we were dialed in 555 six minute pace.

Wow, just clicking them off like he would he would go ahead.

11:07

I took behind him, get on his get on his hip, vice versa.

I'd I'd carry him for a little ways and we just we did that for 20 miles all the way through mile 24.

We were we were right together, right on each other's hip.

So it was pretty special, you know, having somebody to share that that pain with, right and going into that pain pancave together and having that shared adversity and pushing one another.

11:32

It was it was very special.

It was very special.

Yeah, I have to thank my friend.

Ashley Haynes did that for me.

She runs 100 milers and so she doesn't typically road race, but she's on the board of Monumental with me.

And so we've become friends.

11:48

And last year she helped me pace for my PR half.

And so this year I was like, well, would you be up for pacing me for the full?

And she said yes.

And so, yeah, having her with me was really helpful 'cause I remember when I was like deep in the pain cave, which fortunately I didn't really hit until mile 23, but then I was like, really in it.

12:11

She was just like, just go get comfortable in The Cave and this is what you train for and you can do it.

So yeah, she was very helpful.

I mean, there, there's something psychologically about that, knowing that you're in it with somebody.

12:27

Yeah, you know, it it, it lessens that pain.

It lessens that hurt.

And I mean, honestly, I would not have ran as well as I did without Rob.

And I'm sure he would say the same.

He would say the same.

So it was it was really, it was really awesome to have him out there.

12:43

So yeah, it was a special day come across the finish line though, you know, 23642, something I've been working for for five years.

And it wasn't even about like, yes, the goal getting that get to that mountaintop moment was special.

But who I have became over the last 2 1/2 years of just consistently lacing up my shoes, running close to 7000 miles.

13:09

And during that time, you know, put myself out there and trying to, I, I, I don't, I kept putting it out there like 237.

I set it in Asheville sub 240 at this marathon.

And I kept missing a mark.

And I was like, maybe I should just keep my mouth shut and just go.

So I was like, if I if I put it out there again, if I don't hit this again, like, I don't know, I was going to shut up.

13:34

And so it was it that made it even more sweet to call your shot so many times and miss and then to go out there.

But yeah, I mean, the discipline, the delayed gratification, the confidence that I gained of just trusting that process, not giving up on your dream, you know, missing the mark, falling down, getting back up again.

13:56

Because that's what good marathoners do, right?

That's what successful people in life do is they, they set these big audacious goals for themselves.

They put the work ethic behind it.

They don't give up, you know, they persist until, until they get there.

14:11

And so this is transferable over into any area of life, relationships, business, what have you?

This taught me so many lessons to help me be successful and all the other things that I'm, you know, planning on doing in life.

14:28

So it was special.

Yeah, I I will saw a video of you at the at the finish celebrating so with a giant cigar, which made me laugh.

I love it.

My dad and my husband both are cigar guys.

And but to do that after you ran a marathon, just I loved, I loved the whole vibe of that.

14:48

And how else did you celebrate your PR?

And are you still celebrating?

I'm still celebrating.

Because you should be.

I mean, you should celebrate.

For. 2 1/2 years or like till you get the next one.

But yeah, that's such a big deal.

I just went and hung out with some friends afterwards.

15:06

One of my athletes, she came out and ran the half for, for fun.

We went out and you know, I'm, I'm a big chicken and waffle guy.

So we went to a restaurant.

That's what I had the last time I changed my order at the last minute and I can't even remember what I got.

15:21

I got some sort of bowl.

But anyways, yeah, it's just simple, you know, out having having a meal afterwards and and celebrating and just talking about everything that went into it, trying to pull the lessons out of it, calling my family, you know, calling the guys in our recovery house like they were celebrating with me, you know, that's cool.

15:38

We'll get into we'll get into that here soon.

But being able to be that example of like them seeing where I'm at now and the things that I'm accomplishing because I was, I came from the bottom, you know, and that rock bottom is, is that was my life for a long time.

15:57

And so reflecting on that, on what my body is able to do, coming from somebody who struggled with addiction for 15 years, and to think that I'm running a 236 marathon when seven years ago I could barely jog a half a mile like.

16:13

Wild.

Yeah, it's been a pretty incredible journey, which we'll get into here soon.

Yeah, well, Congrats again.

Huge accomplishment.

I can't wait to see you again in Indy.

You better come back year after year.

I'm planning on it.

I am planning.

I love that.

I love that race.

16:29

I love that city.

Good.

Well, how did you find it in 22 to have your athletes come?

So my coach at the time, Jeff Cunningham, was, he had suggested it, OK.

And yeah, he was just talking about how great of a course it was and you know, how fast.

16:44

And usually we get pretty good weather, you know, And so that's why I went.

And yeah, I just fell in love.

I just fell in love with that course.

Yeah, yeah, OK, good.

Well, can't wait to have you back.

And now I want to get into it.

17:01

I am fascinated by your upbringing, to start, because I don't know many people who live on a reservation or who have, who are Native American.

And so I'm just really interested in learning more about your childhood, like how you identify with that culture today.

17:20

Take us through.

Some of that.

So practicing our culture, practicing like knowing about our heritage was not something that we talked about or we were taught and, and in my household growing up.

17:38

But I actually went to a school off the reservation off the it's called the koala boundary.

So it's slightly different than than a reservation, but I went to a predominantly white school And so that caused some identity issues.

17:55

Like I didn't understand who I was as a Cherokee person, as a Cherokee man, Cherokee boy.

I just wasn't taught our language, our, you know, ceremony, dance, craft making, like those things like I just wasn't around me.

18:12

And so but you know, like growing up on the on the rest, like it was small community.

Like I think there's 10,000 people that live on the live on the boundary right now.

So everybody knew everybody I was hanging out with my cousins, aunts and uncles was always, we're always around.

18:30

We'd go camping, we'd go, you know, do things as a family and honest, like I had a good childhood, but my childhood was really chaotic Ally, now that I think about it, like I have a lot of good memories, but I also have a lot of chaotic memories.

18:46

You know, it was a normal thing to go and watch my, my dad and my uncles party, get drunk and, you know, fight from time to time.

And same thing with my mom and dad.

Like they showered us with love.

They showered us with, with toughness.

19:05

My sister and I, that is, I have an older brother and two older sisters, which I've never shared on the podcast before my dad's previous marriage.

They're 2018 and 16 years older than me.

And then my sister, my half sister with my mom, like we have the same mom.

19:23

She was seven years older than me and her name is Leanne.

Unfortunately, Leanne passed away in 2019 due to overdose.

So, you know, I'm not going to paint this picture of like I'm tell it like it is.

19:40

You know, it was very, it's crazy.

It's chaotic watching my sister kind of lose her way and get mixed up in, you know, the mixed up in drugs and partying and dropping out of school, sneaking out of the house, running away.

You know, that was very confusing to me as as her little brother, seven years younger than her, looking up to her and my mom and dad splitting up, getting back together, you know, domestic violence in the home.

20:12

But some of the things that I learned from them were just their work ethic.

They're.

Their loyalty to our family and they would give their life in a heartbeat for us and protect us and everything.

And so they, I mean, they taught me a lot of qualities about that loyalty and hard work and you know those things.

20:33

And just my dad was a Carpenter and he was a really good builder.

Just watching him earn the money by the sweat of his brow every day, take care of his family and, and be a leader in our family.

That's something that I think that my, my wife, she tells me all the time, she's like you're, you're like your dad in that way, Like you're constantly trying to figure out how to help other people.

20:53

And so as far as like my culture goes, I was never connected to it.

And having that loss of identity I think played a big part in me getting mixed up in drugs, right?

Yeah.

How are the kids at school at your mostly white school?

21:11

Would they make fun of you for your heritage or not really?

Not until not until I got into high school.

OK, not.

Until I got into high school, I, I had to, I mean, my, my school life, it was good.

21:26

You know, I was getting, I played, grew up playing basketball, like community basketball.

That was my sport.

Played that from five years old all the way up through high school, played basketball.

And, you know, we'd always hang out.

Neighborhood kids were always out shooting ball and everything.

21:41

That's what we did during the summers.

We'd all go down to the local pool, hang out, shoot ball.

That's where I started smoking weed all the time.

I was getting high like 11-12 years old.

One of the one of my friends that I was hanging out with would go steal weed from his stepdad and we're 12 years old.

21:56

Literally like during throughout the whole summer, he'd be rolling joints in the morning.

We'd be watching TV like.

I can't even, yeah, I can't even like picturing that.

I'm just like, yeah, my mind is.

Yeah, 12 year old kids like you hanging out like hi all the time.

22:11

And I would always tell my dad like he'd be like, why are your eyes red?

I'll be like, I had my eyes opened at the pool and the chlorine got them red.

Like, like he's.

I had these signs very early on, you know, that I was going down the wrong path and get mixed up in the wrong crowd.

22:27

Are you still living in the same area where you grew up?

Yeah, OK.

I'm still, yeah, still living, still living in Cherokee.

And sports has always been a saving grace in my life.

It's always been something that gave me that outlet, that escape, that a healthier community, you know, all the lessons that we learn through sports and character building and all that.

22:48

Like that was something that I really loved.

And, you know, when I was 11 years old, though, I think the turning point for me was being exposed to prescription narcotics, prescription drugs.

I, I was getting migraine headaches and the doctors prescribed a low grade narcotic to me.

23:05

It was something called Stadol.

Yep.

And they prescribed Stadol to me.

I immediately started abusing that medication.

The euphoria they escape the, the feeling of like being comfortable in my own skin, like that's what it gave me.

23:22

And so I was like, Oh my God, I love this feeling like I can just be myself with no anxiety.

It helps me to deal with my mom and dad were kind of like, you know, it was very chaotic, you know, it was very toxic, toxic marriage and relationship like that.

23:38

Yes, they love one another, but it was it was very toxic too.

So is this.

Before or after?

Is it before you started smoking weed?

So was that kind of like the?

Same time around.

The same time.

Yep, Yep, start using this medication.

23:55

I mean, pretty much that summer.

I'm smoking weed all the time too.

So again, it was just that that feeling of escape, you know, I'm being comfortable with my own skin.

I'll try not to stay in this part of the story too much.

But you know, I continued down this path for several years and started using meth.

24:12

I was 16 years old before football games as like a performance enhancer.

And I remember taking my SAT my junior year.

I've been up partying all night.

I've been mixing meth in my water.

24:28

Just drop a few shards of meth in my water, shake it up, drink it.

And I remember falling asleep at at the desk taking my SAT bombed the SAT because I was just marking answers.

Pretty much, yeah.

And, you know, I mean, I had the ability to go play college football or run track at the next level.

24:51

And I failed a class in my senior year.

And they took those opportunities away from me, kicked me off the basketball team, kicked me off the track team.

And I was just spiraled out of control of my life.

Just was this chaotic from that point on because the only thing that I had identity in being an athlete was stripped from me.

25:10

And so it was just kind of like I threw my hands up, like, what the hell, You know, what's the point?

I didn't have resilience.

I didn't have the ability to overcome those things.

So I barely graduate high school.

I have my my two sons with two different women within two years.

25:28

And I was not, I didn't have the ability to be a dad because I was fighting this addiction and it was continuing to grow and get worse by by the month.

And so I mean, this, this went on for years and I'm unemployable, can't hold down a job.

25:47

I barely can get out of the bed because I'm pill sick pretty much every day.

And like, I had went to basic law enforcement training.

I was going to go be a cop.

The only reason I was going to do that was to be a dirty cop.

She's yeah, man.

I wanted, I went into BLET training with the only, the only goal in mind was like, when I get this badge, I want to steal everybody's money, their drugs.

26:09

And like, like that was my whole intention.

Wow.

So the day before we order our firearms, I'll get, I'll, I'll fail.

You can fail 3 tests and then you're, you're kicked out.

So I failed my third test.

Mind you, I'm like partying at night time, snorting cocaine with my family, with my friends, and then I'd go to BLET in the morning.

26:30

That's that's why I like, it was insane.

Like looking back on that now, I'm like, what the hell was I doing?

Yeah.

That's wild.

So around that time though, my dad, shortly thereafter, my dad got diagnosed with terminal cancer.

26:46

And again, I didn't have the, I didn't have the resilience, I didn't have the, the coping skills to to deal with that.

I didn't have, you know, the things that I needed to succeed in life, right?

Those tools.

And so the only thing that I had at my disposal was drugs and that whole community.

27:07

And so when I got that news, I was at that point in time, I was just snorting pills.

And so when I got the news my dad was going to pass away, I was like, I need something harder.

I need to do something like this is not doing it for me anymore.

And so I started to shoot up for the first time in my life, started doing intravenous drug use.

27:27

And that started when I was 23 years old.

And that was, I made it went into a downward spiral really, really fast.

You know, the chemical dependency, the sickness, the, the pain from that physical like chemical dependence was just so, so strong.

27:46

You know, you couldn't get out of bed, you couldn't function, you couldn't think, you couldn't have relationships.

Like you couldn't hold down a job.

I remember having a few odd jobs during that time in my life.

I had to get my first paycheck and I, and I would, I'd quit.

I just go to, you know, re up, get some more drugs and I wouldn't go back to work.

28:03

I had to steal to fuel my habit, you know, start catching charges, started racking up a bunch of charges and whatnot.

And that went on for a few years.

My dad, they gave him six months to live and he fought for three years.

Six months, The whole.

28:19

Reason he fought so hard was like he kept telling everybody that he wanted to see me become the man that he knew I could be.

And 2014 he passed away.

And it was a pivotal moment of my life.

He said something very prophetic over me that would come true years later.

28:37

But in the moment, like it, it was very, it was just a empty, it was empty words.

But I really believe that looking back on it was God speaking through my dad in that moment.

But I'm standing at his bedside and this is like 2 days before he passes away, can barely talk.

28:54

And I'm holding his hand and he was like, son, I'm not worried about you.

You're going to come out of this one day.

You're going to do some great things for our family, for our community and for the world.

And I had sweat beads rolling on my forehead and down my nose.

29:10

I was, I was sick, I was pill sick.

I was withdrawing.

And I thought, I thought in that moment, like, he's crazy.

All I'm ever going to be is a junkie.

And this is how I want to die.

And so he passes away two days later.

I'm in this Hospice room, I'm in the in this Hospice room, I'm in the bathroom and I'm sitting on the sitting on the toilet in the bathroom.

29:34

Just listen to people come in and out and I'm shooting up and my dad's heart rate monitor flat lines.

And I've literally got a needle in my arm.

Oh, shit.

When my dad leaves the earth, leaves this earth and I pull it out, go over to my dad, kiss him on the forehead and call my drug dealer and said I need something.

29:56

My dad just died and I went right back to it.

That was not my rock bottom, rock bottom moment.

I kept, you know, at that point time the hopelessness and shame that I was experiencing, I did not want to deal with.

I didn't know how to deal with it.

So I tried to commit suicide by overdose on several occasions and from 2014 to 2017 I overdose 6 times.

30:18

I had to be brought back with Narcan on three different occasions.

And in 2017, I had outstanding warrants.

They picked me up, set my bond so high.

I wasn't getting out, sitting in jail, drying out, starting to get clear minded, starting to have a clear head, thoughts.

30:36

And I remember writing out a prayer for the first time in my life and I was like calling out to God.

I was crying out to God, like, if you're real, show me that my dad's still with me somehow.

And I lay my pen down and I walk upstairs to grab something.

30:53

And I come back down the steps and a pastor walks in and Pastor Terry Taylor, God, good man, good man.

And he, he walks in the door and there's such a striking resemblance of my dad, it stopped me dead in my tracks.

31:09

He had the same shoes, same pants, same final shirt, belt, mustaches trim the same way.

He's around the same age as my dad.

He comes in and he shares, he shares the gospel with me, right?

And he shares his faith with me.

And he just simply told me like, you're trying to do this out of your own power and you can't, you can't overcome these demons that are trying to destroy you within your own power.

31:33

You need something greater than yourself to believe in.

And I he he gave me what I needed in the moment and I came to faith while I was while I was in jail.

And as he's walking out the door that day, he shakes my hand, the somebody my dad used to.

31:50

And he winks at me like my dad hadn't saved me.

In a few days, my dad would place his left hand over mine and wink at me and say, I love you, son.

And Pastor Terry place his left hand over mine, winks at me, says, I love you, son.

I'll be back in here to see you next week.

And.

32:06

I know right in that moment.

Yeah, that's that was the moment my entire life changed.

That's crazy, Caleb.

I mean I call those God winks like when God shows up and like literally a wink, like in a wink in AI mean that had to just smack you right in the face.

32:25

How long was your were you slated to be in jail at that time?

Well, I was looking at six to seventeen months state prison time and I ended up doing 6 months county jail in county jail and I got put on two years probation.

32:42

Obviously that was my that was my sentence if I if I didn't complete my probation.

So wow, I did 6-6 months.

I called my mom right after that happened and I told her what happened and my mom was just she was crying on the phone because up to that point I was calling her, cussing her out.

33:01

GDSAFDS, Get Me Out of here.

Just very combative, very angry.

And she said, you're in your, your demeanor, your voice, everything was different and you had a calmness and you had accepted where you're at and you're like, mom, I'm right where I'm supposed to be.

33:18

Don't worry about me.

And that's how that was the mindset that I took that was and I every for five months, I just kept telling myself like God's protecting me.

God's got me right where I'm supposed to be, my addictions out in the parking lot doing push ups, waiting on me to get out here.

33:35

I have to take care of myself.

I have to get stronger, you know, and always spiritually, mentally, physically, emotionally.

That way when that door pops and I'll go back out into the world, I'm ready to be the man that my dad believed that always could be.

And so those words that my dad spoke over me for three years prior, I started to remember and I was like, this is what he's talking about.

34:02

Like this is the man that he knew that I could be.

And it's time for me to take, it's time for me to believe that and start living that out and just started to dream.

Honestly.

I used to sit at the window and I would people watch in the county jail, there's an Ingles right below the jail and I would look out the window and I would just watch kids coming in and out and families and just doing a basic thing like grocery shopping.

34:27

And I was like, I cannot wait to get out of here.

And like just I was looking at life like a, like a newborn baby, honestly.

Like I cannot wait to get out here and just live my life on my own life's terms.

Try to make amends with the people that I've hurt, the people that I've let down and heartbroken.

34:47

Try to do some good in the world and do some good for my community.

And so, you know, started to have these, these dreams and, and, and think about like, how can I get back?

How can I get healthy?

How can I take care of myself?

And around that time, I started to do jailhouse workouts, right?

35:05

So we're doing dips on the bench, we're doing rows on the middle bunks, we're doing burpees where.

And we had a set of 20 stairs that went from a common area up to the sleeping area.

And I would walk, walk, and I'd run up and down these steps and I'd go across the, the, the bunk area and I walk back down, up and down, up and down all day.

35:26

And that's how I started, That's how my fitness journey started.

And we, we, we ordered a men's health body weight workout guide.

We got that in, we started doing a bunch of these workouts.

And earlier this year, I was featured in Men's Health as one of the first step, one of the first step.

35:50

People like talk about how they change their life, change their, their health and everything.

And so just think back that we were working out to this men's health to be featured in men's Health was, I mean, that's just, that's probably one of my proudest moments.

I know you asked that in the e-mail, but that full circle moment was probably one of my proudest moments.

36:08

Unreal.

And during this time when you're battling your addiction and you end up in jail, where are your the kids that you mentioned earlier do were you in any way connected with them or their moms during this time?

No.

No, no, unfortunately, my, my, my relationships with my sons or I don't have a relationship with my oldest son Hayden.

36:29

He's, he's going to Appalachian State.

He's going, he's such an intelligent young man, good looking, good looking like his dad.

He's going to be, he's going to be somebody in life.

And, and I'm really proud of him.

I went and watched him graduate, but unfortunately we don't have a relationship.

36:47

And, you know, consequences of my action.

I have to own that shit.

And I know one day, though, if I keep doing the right thing and you know, I want to have to, I want to have to take his, his anger and his wrath and his hurt and, and just be there for him and just tell him that I love him.

37:06

And I'm sorry.

And I hope that one day he will.

Hopefully he can, he can, he can forgive me.

And then my youngest son, Caleb, I just messaged him this morning.

We, we got, we got a decent relationship.

We've been through family therapy together.

We've been on trips together.

I've taken him to Austin, TX with me when I went out there to create, do some stuff with Jeremy Miller, Matt Johnson.

37:26

He got to meet those guys.

He don't, he could, he could care less.

He's like, whatever.

Yeah.

I've taken him to Oklahoma.

I've tried to expose him to, to, to things.

He lived with me for a time.

So I just messaged him this morning, though, and was just trying to see if he wanted to go go out to eat with me sometimes.

37:44

So we've got a relationship and I'm, I'm very thankful for that.

They live with their grandmas.

They, my oldest live with his with his mom's mom and then Hayden.

Hayden was raised by his mom and and stepdad.

OK.

And Caleb, the name you're named after your dad and then your youngest is named after you.

38:02

What is the?

Is there a meaning behind your name?

So it was it came from Caleb out of the Bible Caleb.

But my my grandma, who was not educated when she spelled Caleb, when my dad was born, that's how she spelled it.

38:24

Wow.

And, and the nurse, the nurse was like, this, this is not how you spell Caleb.

And my grandma was like, well, he's going to be a unique man, so we're going to leave it.

Like, OK, have you since ever met another?

Probably not.

No, yeah.

38:41

No.

That is kind of cool.

Not like that.

Yeah, only one.

Only one.

Only three.

Yeah, yeah, three.

OK, so somehow you get strong enough in jail and you do you keep your addiction, Is it completely gone after that point, you've managed to get out and you're done with it or?

39:02

It's a great question.

I wasn't actually, and this is something I've been trying to share a little bit more openly, but I get out and I immediately like dive into endurance sports.

So I start watching YouTube videos, I'm watching motivational speakers, I'm watching, you know, I find Inky Johnson, I find David Goggins, you know, all these guys and and David Goggins, one of his videos was, you know, just talk about how he lost all this weight, got involved in enduring sports.

39:34

And I was like, I need to do something like that.

So I sign up for Iron Man 70.3.

I'll get out of jail like August 24th.

I do beach to battleship in Wilmington, NC in October.

What's that?

Oh, that's the name.

39:51

Of it beach to.

Battleship beach beach beach Yep beach to battleship in Wilmington and.

How did you pay for that I?

Didn't my mom?

My mom helped me out.

Wow, that's really cool.

Because yeah, Ironman, those races are not cheap to sign up for.

40:09

Yeah.

Triathlon triathletes have a lot of disposable income.

I did.

Yeah, right.

So that's amazing that your mom helped you do that.

So I didn't do any training basically.

I didn't swim any.

I didn't run.

I ran the day before, the two days before I went down and I got shin splint so bad from running a mile like it, it, it, it was, it was terrible.

40:31

I had to stop and walk.

I couldn't go over a mile.

And then I had been riding a mountain bike for those like 7 weeks leading up to the race.

The day before I left, I had a friend who was selling a road bike.

So I bought a road bike the day before I left Wilmington.

40:48

You had flat pedals on it.

Mind you, everybody's out there in a clip in shoes and I'm on.

I'm racing with flats and I was the 1st wave into the water, 1800 competitors, 17199 people.

41:05

I was the last person to get out of the water.

So everybody swam over top of me.

I was freaking out.

I was like, how in the world am I going to finish this?

And so I just went back to my why and and I just kept telling myself like all the things that I've overcome this triathlon is nothing in comparison to that.

41:27

And so just keeping that perspective and just thinking about like how far God had brought me all the things that I was, I was safe from spared from that got me through and I finished that race.

I made an amazing community, inspiring people.

41:42

Like had a lot of story, the similar stories by myself, overcoming things, overcoming life's challenges and adversity.

And I was like, I remember thinking to myself at the end of that, I was like, this is where I'm supposed to be, you know, I'm supposed to be within this community here.

And, you know, it gave me a sense of purpose.

42:00

And so I, I just committed to, to continuing to sign up for things and push myself.

And I've ever since then, Ally, I'm a, I'm a big believer always having something on the calendar.

Like I have a little bit of downtime, yes, but like, I always try to move towards like, what's the next thing?

42:20

And, you know, I mean, some people might say that's unhealthy, but I think that you could look at the the fruits of my life and what, what I'm able to accomplish and how I'm giving back and how what we've created with our organization, everything.

42:37

And that's all directly tied to me showing up and doing these things that I've been doing for for the past several years.

So, yeah, I mean, that just that gave me a lot of confidence that gave me a community and gave me a sense of purpose.

And so I started getting into get in the marathons are in a marathon shortly after that first marathon was five hours and 25 minutes at Emerald Isle, NC.

42:59

I was one of the last man to finish that day crushed me could barely walk for two days.

And around that time I was trying to get into the remember the removal bike ride.

So it's a it's a bike ride that goes from New Echo to Georgia, retraces the northern route of the Trail of Tears and finishes in Tahlequah, OK.

43:21

I've seen the the article in our local paper of some people from my tribe doing it.

And I was like, when I get out of here, I want to go do that bike ride.

Coming to find out they don't allow anybody with a felony conviction on their record to participate.

So I was like, I go up to my council, my tribal leadership chief, vice chief and I was advocating for a rule change and and they were like, sorry, Cherokee Nation and Oklahoma, who started the bike ride and made the rules, so we can't do anything about it.

43:53

And so I was like, well, if you're not going to let me ride the bike, I'll run it.

And this is being televised.

I had no intention of saying that, but I was.

So I was, I think I was angry in the moment.

I was like, we're not going to let me do it.

Then I'll just run to Oklahoma.

And I was like, what did I just say?

44:10

And I walked out of there and walked out of the tribal council house.

And I remember like thinking to myself, OK, I don't, I don't know anything about how to run across the country or, you know, to do a multi day running event, but we're just going to start running miles.

44:26

And that is how I came to running was God's redirection, being told no, finding a different way to get to the goal that I wanted to achieve.

And in that moment, like I said earlier and telling my story, I didn't have resilience in my life.

44:43

I didn't know how to work through adversity, challenges, you know, things like that.

And now I'm like learning these things.

And endurance sports is helping me direct.

It's directly helping me become stronger, more resilient.

And so I trained for that run November to May.

45:02

I'm running, you know, I was running multiple 100 mile weeks, like pretty early on.

I don't know how it didn't get injured.

Yeah, that's wild.

Just got into it, like I said, and I ran 800 miles in 40 days, finished that run.

45:20

And that's that's how that's how I fell in love with running was through that journey.

Will you impart in my ignorance?

But will you educate listeners on what the Trail of Tears is?

Oh no, you don't have to.

Pardon your ignorance.

I feel like I.

45:35

I've heard of it, and I feel like maybe at some point I learned a little bit about it, but not enough for it to.

Yeah, yeah.

So in 181838 the Indian Removal Act was passed and the US government took the land from the Five Civilized Tribes, Cherokee, Chickasaw, Creek, Seminole and Choctaw.

46:00

And so they took all their land and they moved us out to Oklahoma, which is known as Indian Territory.

And you know they found resources, gold, things of that nature within our land.

So they're like y'all got to, you know, rounded everybody up, putting everybody in forts and we're going to ship everybody out.

46:22

So in 1838 we were all move I think Indian.

That might have been 1837.

Then we had to travel to years in 1838.

So we're all removed from our homelands.

There were a small band of Cherokees that stayed within these mountains and hid in the mountains.

46:38

So that's why there's that's why there's three different bands of Cherokee.

You've got Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, which is that's where I'm enrolled here in Cherokee, NC.

And then you've got Cherokee Nation and United Kadua Band, which is in Oklahoma.

So you got 3 bands of Cherokees.

46:54

But that's why there's so many tribes out in Oklahoma because of the Indian Removal Act.

And so there were several, several routes of the Trail of Tears.

You had the water route, you had the Bend route, you had the Bell route, you had the northern route, and the bike riders retrace the northern route.

47:10

I want to do something different.

So I took the Bend route, which was started in Fort Payne, AL and come up to Tennessee into a little piece of Kentucky, Missouri, Arkansas, finish in Oklahoma.

And that's the one that I took.

47:27

Wow, How did you fund?

Did your mom help you fund that?

Because I know that's, I mean, being able to have to eat, like to find places to sleep, like that's incredible.

So interestingly enough, I got my first ever sponsor.

47:45

I shared my story after doing the Iron Man 70.3 in a local paper.

I randomly had a guy from New York City named Tom Shanahan.

He's a prominent attorney in New York City who's in recovery, and he reached out to me.

He's got a organization called Spiritual Adrenaline and who just highlights people in the recovery space who's involved in fitness.

48:09

So Tom reaches out to me because he's writing a book and he was like, I want to dedicate one of my chapters to your story and what you're doing and your community.

So in 2018, he reaches out to me early on and he was like, how can I support you?

How can I get behind you?

48:26

He donates some money to the to the run.

We get per capita checks, so every six months, December 1st and June 1st, our tribe gets money from the revenue that we create from the casino.

Right, OK.

And so I took that money from my per capita check and put it into this, into this Trail of Tears run.

48:48

And that's, and my mom helped out, too.

My mom was my crew.

She was out on the road with me driving every three to five miles.

So yeah, So my mom's been there with me every step of the way pretty much since I got out of jail.

Wow.

Shout out.

Yeah, jeez, that's amazing.

49:06

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OK, we started the touch on it, but where did your addiction sneak back in?

49:24

When did it come back?

So yes, yeah, back up.

So I'm riding the bike a lot and I start to develop TMII started to get some some pain from sitting in the saddle so much, right.

49:44

And yeah, I go to the doctor and honestly, this was my attic behavior.

I had a little bit of pain.

So I went doctor shopping and they prescribe a low grade narcotic and they're like, I didn't tell them.

50:01

I didn't tell them.

And I should have, you know, I should have been upfront and honest.

I mean, because that's what you're supposed to do in your recovery program, right?

Open an honest program.

And I didn't, I didn't tell them I have struggles with with narcotics, with opioids.

So they prescribed me a narcotic.

50:17

Well, they give me two months prescription.

The first month I take as prescribed.

Second month I took it within 10 days like I was eating multiple tramadol.

They gave me tramadol.

I was eating multiple tramadol.

50:33

I was like about a handful.

It's basically and I was in a relationship at the time and she had went and got her wisdom teeth pulled and I went she was not going to get her prescription filled.

I went and got her prescription filled and I took her medication.

50:51

She calls my mom and she tells my mom what I was doing and my mom calls me.

Actually I was at her house and she was begging and pleading with me.

She said, son, you have overcame so much and you're doing so well and I don't know what I'll do without you.

51:09

Like you shouldn't be here.

And she's like, please, please stop.

And, you know, most people don't have the ability to do that.

But I, I think I was very still early on, like it hadn't got so far where it was just uncontrollable.

51:26

And just the look on my mom's face and seeing the fear in her eyes, like I was like, OK, I need to stop.

And so then that was that was it.

I stopped then.

Wow, wow, that.

But it was scary because I that could have been.

That could.

Have been so bad.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow.

51:42

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, addiction, that's tricky business, man it.

It is.

I liked how you put it, like your addictions out in the parking lot doing push ups, because it does in the stories that I've heard, it just seems that way.

It's just, yeah, it's immediately out there waiting.

51:57

It's always waiting on you.

It's waiting on you to pounce.

It's waiting on, you know, life to throw challenges at you and chaos and and and you know, all the mental health things that come along with that.

And it's like having those tools in your tool belt, having the community, having the support, having those coping skills, you know, that's really, really important.

52:17

And so I was very fortunate to to have a mom that was supporting me, to have friends in recovery, to have this new outlet with, with endurance sports and running and cycling and all these things and strength training like it was, it gave me all the things that I needed to succeed.

52:34

Yeah.

Do you still, you mentioned family therapy earlier.

Do you still use therapy as part of your recovery?

I haven't, but I need to.

I need to.

I think everybody needs to get there.

I agree with that, yeah.

It's, I don't know at this point in my life what I would do without it.

52:50

It's just such a great outlet to have somebody else there and to give you suggestions and things you just wouldn't think of yourself.

Running is a lot of my therapy too, and that helps.

But yeah, certainly when you don't have, you know, drugs or, you know, those things to kind of put you at ease, you've got to find other ways.

53:10

And certainly, gosh, you have.

What was your first marathon was you mentioned the Emerald Isle and then you've done Asheville.

We mentioned what other races have you done?

I've done so I've did.

I've done Emerald Isle, I've done Missoula twice.

53:28

Oh yeah, I've done Andy twice.

I've done Boston twice.

I've done Asheville.

OK.

So 88 marathons 8.

Oh, you and I are tied with the number of marathons.

Look at us.

Yeah.

Well, I want to.

I want to beat you next year.

I'm not.

53:43

Yeah.

I'm not competing.

I can't compete.

Yeah, I I've done Chicago four times.

Let's go.

New York wants, Marine Corps wants and Indy twice now.

Yeah.

And you're an ultra marathoner as well.

54:00

I mean, obviously by nature in the run you just described in the Trail of Tears is certainly well beyond an ultra marathon.

Have you done other like organized ultras or any more triathlons?

I have, I've done another 70.3 here in Low Low Lake Logan and in North Carolina.

54:19

They just actually stopped doing that race last year.

So unfortunate.

It's a good one.

I've did a 100 mile trail race called the Georgia Jewel.

I did that in 20/21/2021.

Yeah, September 2021.

And I've done 3 official 50 mile races as well.

54:39

OK.

So did you do the 100 miles before you did 50 miles?

No.

OK, no, I did.

I DNF D my first fifty mile, first official 50 mile.

OK.

And I went back and completed that 50 mile and then I went back the following year at the same course and then 100 mile, OK.

55:00

Yeah, my brother-in-law is gearing up for the JFK 50 Miller.

It'll be his first ultra.

I think it's this weekend, actually.

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great race.

I've heard highly competitive too.

Yeah, I've also done, I attempted Long haul 100 DNF, I attempted Mohican 100 DNF and then I did Georgia Jewel and completed it.

55:24

So my third attempt at the 100, I got it finally.

And then I've done 2 backyard events, 4.16 miles, everybody, every hour on the hour.

And I went, I went 18 hours in one and 21 hours in the other.

55:42

Wow.

And what was 21 hours?

Where did that, Where did you fall in terms of place?

Seems like you would have to be up there.

Yeah, there was 80.

There's like right at 90 people competing in that.

When I think I was around 18th or something, they were, they were like they were like 10 guys.

56:01

There's ten guys that dropped it once.

Soon as they hit the 24, they stopped.

So yeah, I want to go back to that race next year and we'll see how I feel after Transcontinental, but I'm going to go back and get my 24 plus hours.

56:17

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, got to do it.

That's so crazy.

I mean, thinking about that, I just.

Yeah.

Wow.

Someday.

It's in Ohio.

You come out and you can be.

You can.

You can cruise.

Perfect.

I do need to actually that.

That would be so fun.

You need a podcast that Taylor you will love.

56:35

56:52

I want to try to get some of my buddies.

I'm going to try to get Jeremy there, Try to Jeremy Miller.

I'm trying to talk at Mike Johnson in the coming and we're just going to have a big party up there and then go out and try to run 24 hours or more.

So, yeah, and.

TBD you come out and join us if you can, yeah.

57:09

TBD.

I mean, I'm Yeah, invite me.

I will.

And so how in this journey, when did you become a running coach and start your business?

And then also, when did you start Res Hope, your nonprofit organization?

So res hope started whenever I was preparing to run the Trail of Tears.

57:30

Gotcha.

I knew that I wanted to create an organization.

So we started Red Hope recovery and consulting and it was just an idea at that point in time, right?

It was not even we didn't know what direction we're going to go with it.

We knew we wanted to serve the community.

We knew we wanted to create community events.

57:49

We started with a Thanksgiving dinner.

We started with like just getting out create and and cooking meals for people in need within our community.

That's that's how that's the genesis of how raise hope began.

Then we started getting involved with schools.

58:05

So I would go and speak into a lot of high schools, middle Caitlin, I believe, sharing our stories.

And we had a team where we had a addiction specialist.

He would come in and talk about the science of addiction.

And then we would talk about, you know, sharing like lived experience with share our story.

58:23

And then we'd have a paramedic come in and they would talk about resources and, and stats and things like that and just educating the kids on, you know, something that's the, the, if I'm not mistaken, you can go and Google this, but I think overdose is the number one cause of death for people under 35 right now in our country.

58:43

So, so that's kind of how it started.

And and then I raised money.

The first ever like big fundraiser was the trailer tears run 2018.

I stood in front of our men's recovery home January of 2018.

58:59

And like, it's in the background.

The house is in the background.

I'm on the local news, Asheville WLOS news.

And I'm like, we're going to open this house.

We're going to have guys in here like we can create a safe space for them, get them involved in a fitness program and just getting healthier and recovery support and like all the things, right?

59:18

Little did I know it would take.

We just got our first participant two months ago, so seven years.

Wow.

Right.

Is that 7, six years, six years?

It would take us six years from that point of me doing that interview until we have our first person in.

59:37

And again, like going back to the marathon, 2 1/2 years of work with, with that goal, six years of work to make this happen and never give up, giving up on the dream, learning just to overcome those, overcome those challenges and adversity and, and things of that nature.

59:55

Like we finally got it done.

But we started to, like I said, we just got our first participant.

It's called the good Doogie House and Doogie in in our language means.

The community, it means community coming together to help somebody in need without hesitation.

1:00:15

And so that's what we try to, that's what we strive to do for people that are struggling.

So yeah, that's how that's how Race Hope got started.

That's really cool.

And did you spend time in that house yourself, or was that just you reached out and wanted to serve that part of your community because you'd been through what a lot of them had been through?

1:00:33

Yeah, I just, I just wanted to to serve that part of my community.

It was a house that we owned as a family.

Like my mom is going to use it as a rental.

And I was like, Nah, mom, I really think that we need to do something more with this.

Like, you know, I think we need to do something greater, like for the greater good for the community.

1:00:54

And so we started doing some fundraising and remodeling the house and everything.

And then finally we got some grants like two years ago to help with remodel.

Immediate needs read like all all the things that we needed to do.

We had to strip, we had to gut the house pretty much get HVAC unit everything, build a new deck on it.

1:01:14

We had a cool thing about the run to Oak to the, the run on the Trail of Tears was we got connected with so many people from Oklahoma.

And one of the churches that hosted me when I finished my run came out earlier this summer and just brought some of their church members and they came out and tore the deck down, paid for the new deck, rebuilt the deck, everything.

1:01:37

And they, they, they just became like family to us.

And so that wouldn't have happened had the Trail of Tears run not happen.

And right gosh, in a like January, I'm going out to speak.

I've, I've spoken in several schools in Oklahoma.

So they always welcome me like family put me up.

1:01:55

I mean, I'm real close to some of the the administrators within the school system.

So I'm going to go out and speak to the high school students and share my documentary and just talk about, you know, where I'm what I've overcome in life and how I overcame it and what I'm doing now.

And hopefully it inspires some kids.

1:02:11

And so that's another big thing about what I try to do with my organization and with my running.

Yeah.

But I didn't realize that Res Hope was actually the house like you built the house that I mean, or not built the house, but essentially rebuilding the house.

Yeah.

So that that is so, so incredible.

1:02:28

And then when at what year did you become a running coach and start that business?

So I started to just help people.

People ask for advice, you know how it goes.

Like people see that you're the runner and they're like, hey, what do I do?

You know, how do I do this?

And so I was like, that happened more and more and more.

1:02:45

And I was like, OK, I need to like get a little education on this.

And so I went and got my ACE certification, became a personal trainer, started just doing one-on-one personal training, strength training, things of that nature.

And then I went to the RRCA run coach.

1:03:01

I went to that course and started coaching people full time.

And 2021 I was working at a homeless shelter.

Things kept picking up.

I had more and more people reaching out.

I went to Caitlin, my wife, and I said, what do you think about me pursuing this, leaving my job and pursuing this full time?

1:03:22

And she was like, if you think you can make enough money to pay the bills and go for it.

And I was like, well, I don't really know.

We're going to try, We'll see.

And so that was December of 2021.

So I'm about to come up on my three-year anniversary for my business and I've been doing that for three years full time.

1:03:42

At this point in time, my athlete roster sits between 35 and 45 at all times.

And so that's my main source of income.

And then now I'm getting back into speaking more and things of that nature and prepping for the transcontinental run just.

We'll get and we're going to get to that.

1:03:58

You've mentioned it a couple times.

I can't wait to hear hear more about that.

I wanted to ask you before I forget about Caitlin.

So you mentioned that you both have shared your stories like how did how did you meet Caitlin?

OK, here's a the God wink of God winks for you.

In 2016 I was experiencing my worst overdose.

1:04:19

I didn't have a pulse.

I was unresponsive for several minutes.

The police officers and some of the paramedics were have had given up on me.

There was one paramedic that she kept fighting and she called the AR doctor and she was like he's not responding.

1:04:36

AR doctor said if you have more Narcan, do not stop working on him.

So she narcans me again, continues to work on me, revives me, brings me back and this is a 2016.

I go to pick up Caitlin.

We're both in recovery.

1:04:51

She just got out of prison.

I just got out of jail and we're in recovery support groups together, hanging out, becoming friends and this, you know, we're several months in, like I go to pick her up for a very first date and I start telling her mom this story of me overdosing and her mom just starts bawling like tears.

1:05:12

Well, end up crying.

And I was like, what is it?

And she said, do you know who saved your life?

Like, no, she said that was me.

And so, three years prior to Caitlin and I getting together, her mom was the one that saved my life.

I'm speechless.

That's yeah.

1:05:27

I didn't think you could beat the other Godwink that you had earlier, but I think that is the Godwink of godwinks.

Wow.

Yeah.

Wow, that's wild.

Like, I mean, you're like that.

Is not what I expected, yeah.

And that's whenever times get tough, whenever we don't know if we're where we're supposed to be, we think back to that.

1:05:48

Story.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, we're, we're, we're doing what we're supposed to be doing.

Yeah, yeah.

Even if it is hard at times, it's like, Nope, this is clearly meant to be.

Yeah.

Wow, wow, that's, that's amazing.

1:06:04

Well, now I don't know how we move on for that.

It's just unreal.

I'm like need a moment, but I want to talk and give time to your transcontinental run and learn about what made you decide to do that.

I know you're starting soon, so and how can you know?

1:06:22

How can I and how can listeners support you and tell me all the things?

So I will be starting tentatively March 17th.

OK.

And I'm getting ready, getting ready to start training officially next week.

There are a plethora of different ways that you can train for something like this.

1:06:41

You can focus on mileage only.

You can just focus on just, you know, getting that as much volume as you safely can.

Big double S, big back-to-back long runs, or you can take a little bit more of a conservative approach and you can do a lot of cross training.

1:06:59

So big run in the morning, get in the gym, you know, do some, do some sort of cross training on the, on the bike, elliptical, things of that nature.

Maybe save the joints, say save all the muscles right, from the, all the breakdown and overuse just depends on your body, right?

1:07:18

So it's, it's going to be trial and error, hopefully, hopefully not a lot of air because we don't have a lot of time.

We've less literally got less than four months.

But ideally what I would like to build up to is multiple 150 plus mile weeks.

1:07:37

If I could get up to 200 mile weeks, that would be better.

Maybe I just do two or three 200 mile weeks with like back-to-back 40 mile runs.

And the good thing about coming into this transcon is the my running economy and my efficiency and my speed is going to help me as far as the energy that I'm having to you utilize because I'm just so much faster, right.

1:08:05

If I came into this thing a lot slower than a lot of the breakdown, a lot of the overuse would be much better, much worse because I'd be out there a lot longer trying to get the mileage in.

Yeah, so I think coming into this thing really fit and and strong, aerobically strong is going to be really, really helpful.

1:08:21

But yeah, I mean, I'm very hire a coach.

I, I, I've got a couple in mind.

I'm waiting to hear from them.

We're going to hop on some calls and we'll just see who vibes, you know the best with, see who's a good fit.

Obviously somebody has got some experience doing multi day events, you know, training the gut.

1:08:38

It's going to be all about training the gut.

How much, how, how well can I digest to get down and digest calories?

Ultimately I'll be eating about 10,000 calories a day potentially.

I'm going to be trying to run 62 miles a day.

So yeah.

That's a lot. 50K in the morning, 50K in the evening.

1:08:57

Yeah.

So it's next week I'll start though, and I'll probably try to go up to about 60 to 70 miles next week and we'll just start to build from there.

Yeah.

Slowing down, obviously slowing down the intensity.

I would love to be able to do something intense one day a week.

1:09:13

So maybe I'll hop on the bike or the Echo bike, the Echo bike or something and just crank out some some efforts at lactate threshold because I want to.

I want to hang on to some fitness.

Yeah.

There might be some trade-offs there though.

Like I might just have to let go of that goal and just get in the miles, get in the time.

1:09:32

But you know, we'll, we'll see how it goes.

But as far as like supporting me, I've got my pitch deck.

I'm I'm reaching out to brands right now.

I'm reaching out to potential sponsors.

Hopefully I'll get Brooks to come on board.

I'm in talks with them right now.

Then we'll see.

1:09:48

I'm going to be sharing my my information here soon so people can donate and get behind the cause.

And we're raising money for Red Hope Recovery and consulting our nonprofit.

Our focus is helping men struggling with mental health issues and substance use disorder.

And also to getting our message and what we do in front of the kids think it's really, really important.

1:10:07

And that's, that's another way that we give back.

And so if people are can get behind that sort of thing, you know, you can, I'll send you the, the, the website and we can link it in there.

Yeah, yeah.

Please do.

And as far as the fundraising goes, as soon as I get my link, I'll I'll send that to you as well and we can, we can get that up.

1:10:26

Yeah, yeah, please.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

I'm trying to think about other people to introduce you to our organizations that could be a good fit as well.

I had.

Do you follow Cameron Balser?

He ran around the United States, the perimeter and he's from from Indiana.

1:10:42

So yeah, he ran, it was like 40 miles a day for 10 months or yeah, however long it took him.

And yeah, that was, you know, hearing about those types of runs and journeys.

You're just like, wow.

Like there, there is a lot to think about and learn throughout those those processes.

1:10:59

He he is sponsored by Mount to Coast, but they're footwear.

So Brooks obviously would be a competitor, but Brooks doesn't come on board.

We'll see.

We'll see if they come on Brooks.

I hope they do.

I hope, I hope they do too.

So hopefully.

1:11:15

We can get some.

Kara can get us some clout with Brooks.

Kara OK, Yeah, I had that on my list because you said that you're staying at the Goucher's house.

So yeah, how do you know?

How do you know?

Kara, tell us that story.

So I met I met Chris Lee, OK.

1:11:30

He is a strength coach based out of Boulder, Co.

He does some work with with the bus, does some work with the cross country and track team.

And he's also Karen Adams strength coach.

So I met him at the Olympic trials and we just we became friends connected on Instagram.

1:11:51

I use this app called which weight for for my athletes and for my training, my strength training.

Oh, cool.

It's very rogue runner focused type of strength training.

And so I used that and he and I started chatting several months ago.

1:12:07

And he was like, dude, I love what you're doing with your organization.

I love how you're using your running to give back.

Like, how can I get involved?

And I said, well, I've got this documentary.

And he was like, I want to put on a community event.

Let's show you documentary.

He's like, I'll invite, you know, the Boulder community to come out.

So we had several people come out.

1:12:25

Kara was there at the gym when I went out to train.

I got to do some strength training with her.

It's wild.

Which I want to, I want to tell on her a little bit, which she's, she's a bit of a whiner in the weight room.

I am too, if I'm being honest, Yeah.

1:12:42

I'm like, she's such a beast though, and knows how to suffer better than anybody.

And I'm like, Karen, come on.

It's like a pull.

Up.

Let's go.

Yeah, that's funny.

That is so funny.

I love you, Karen.

Hopefully she doesn't see this.

Well, I would die.

If she listened to this, Oh my gosh.

1:12:59

I'll have to send her a clip.

So anyway, she came out to the event.

I met her and Adam.

I met her and Adam there.

And then the following night they invited us to Mexican restaurant.

So Kara, Adam, myself and, and Caitlin all went out to dinner and we got to just sit down with, with them for about 3 hours and have a conversation.

1:13:20

And I told her that I was getting ready to start training for Transcon.

I was coming out to Boulder.

Chris invited me out because we're going to do some metabolic testing, go do some VO2 Max testing.

We're going to look at my bio mechanics, make sure you know, they're going to, they're going to get me on a program that's, you know, that's going to be like directly individualized for my needs for Transcon.

1:13:40

And I told her about that and she was like, don't worry about getting a hotel room.

I want you to come stay with with Adam and I and Colt so.

Yeah, so.

Cool, fly out there in two weeks, December 2nd.

1:13:55

I'll be out there December 2nd through the 8th creating content, trying to grow my YouTube page.

We're creating a transcontinental training series on YouTube.

Oh, that's cool.

We pulling the curtain back like give everybody inside peek on how we're prepping for this and all all the things.

1:14:11

So definitely give us a give me a follow.

Yeah, but I wanted to ask you about the documentary as well.

A Runner's High and is that publicly available?

Is that something you're getting ready to launch because you've you've had?

It in the chair.

1:14:26

I tried to find it and I was like I see the trailer but I want to see the whole thing.

Yeah, so we've got just we're doing that private screenings because it's currently on the Film Festival tour.

Got it.

OK.

And we're trying to to get in the Sundance and some other prominent film festivals.

1:14:45

So TBD on that as well.

They should be.

It should be out in January or February though, and it'll be out on YouTube.

And how did that start?

How did that process start?

I was, during the pandemic, I was at a swimming hole, a local swimming hole, very, very popular.

1:15:05

And I see this, see this guy flying his drone and I'm very inquisitive.

I don't know a stranger.

I go up and I'll talk to anybody, you know, and ask questions.

And I was just like, hey, dude, like what are you out here getting?

What kind of shots are you looking to get?

Like?

And he just started talking to me and he was like, yeah, I'm, I'm a up and coming filmmaker and I just graduated from Liberty University, got my degree in film.

1:15:27

And, and I started telling him a little bit about myself and, and he was asking my story and I shared a little my story.

And then six months later, he messaged me out of the blue on Instagram.

He was like, hey, we met at the waterfall.

Like I'm getting ready to create my first documentary, my first big project.

1:15:43

And I really want to get your story out there because I feel like it touches on a lot of demographics, like touches on that faith-based Indigenous, you know, base sports and during sports, like all the things people in recovery.

And he was like, I just feel like it could reach a lot of people.

1:15:59

And so I was like, yeah, man, let's do it.

And so he came out to Cherokee.

We recorded.

We recorded for like two or three days.

I don't hear from him for a few months.

He reaches back out and he was like, I got some bad news.

We're not going to be able to get the project up and running just yet.

Like, he's like a plus.

1:16:15

I don't like any of the film, any of the shots that I got.

I want to redo it and I want to have my buddy who I graduated with come on as a producer.

And so again, like nothing for a year Ally last summer.

Last summer, he messages me in June and out of the blue, hadn't heard from him in like a year or so.

1:16:36

He was like, what are you doing this week?

And I'm like, I'm hanging out of the house, like just I'm training, like come on out.

He was like, OK, we got we got three days.

We're coming out.

We're getting all the shots in Cherokee.

He's like, and then we got to get on.

1:16:52

We got to get on the road in August.

Can you make it happen?

So we did like a fundraiser to get to get all the help out with the camera equipment that we needed and everything.

And then August, we went and recreated the Trail of Tears run, went on the same route, hit some of the big same spots.

1:17:11

And so yes, it was.

God has taught me a lot of patience over the past.

Several has.

My goodness, he has.

Gosh, OK, yeah, that's really cool.

Another Godwink just puts that guy at the waterfall and you're just like, hey, what are you just crazy how things things come together, man I.

1:17:33

Know it is.

I remember what else I was going to ask you and that was how many people have completed Transcon, do you know?

Under 4. 100 under. 400 and that includes walkers as well, yeah.

Wow, under 400 and you start West Coast and go to east right?

1:17:49

That's what you're.

Doing OK, yeah.

Is there like a defined route that they that is like here's the route people do for that?

Route 66 is pretty is pretty common.

You go from the the the, the courthouse in, in San Francisco or you go Santa Monica Pier to New York.

1:18:09

Yeah, OK.

You know, San Francisco to Philly to New York, one of those routes.

I thought about doing Seattle to Wilmington, just because I don't think that one's been done yet and I still might do it.

I don't know.

I'm open to it.

That seems like a more more elevation.

1:18:24

I don't know that tests my geography.

Yeah, it's like.

We're I know it's test in mine too.

It's test in mine too.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, You, you mentioned you're in Asheville.

Did you get, were you impacted by all that happened with the hurricane?

Surely you had to be or no people.

1:18:41

We yeah, we know a lot of people that were it actually the the eye of the hurricane went over Cherokee and and Bryson City.

I'm so sorry.

But everything just surrounding us, yes, was just devastated.

So, you know, that's, that's one thing that I'm thinking about doing is, is trying to donate some of the funds that we make off Transcon to a family in need, help them get house, help them get housing.

1:19:08

Yeah, yeah, that's just so awful.

My wife's done a lot of volunteer work over there since that happened.

So that's really nice.

Like we.

Didn't have, we didn't have men in the house.

So, you know, we, we're waiting to get some participants in the house and during that time, my mom and who works for us now we, my mom's one of our, she's basically like the manager Caitlin's the executive director.

1:19:31

So they went over to Asheville and and was donating their time and supplies and things of that nature.

I was out in Texas at that time with Matt Johnson doing the run across Texas.

You were so well, man.

Yeah.

Yeah, just the casual run across Texas.

1:19:47

I we can't, you've just done a lot and are going to continue to do so much.

Surely you're going to have to come back sometime after your Transcon run.

We'll have to come on and and chop it up a little bit about Transcon training.

Right.

Yeah, that's interesting.

And yeah.

1:20:03

Yeah.

Yeah, wow.

Oh man.

Well, I hate to do this, but I, I have a couple of end of the podcast questions for you that I'm sure we can talk about for a while anyway.

But the first one is what is your favorite running mantra and or song?

1:20:23

So I don't listen to songs really when I'm running well, anything and I might get I might get some shade thrown at me right now because he's not he's not very.

Are you going?

To say P Diddy.

No.

Good.

1:20:42

Oh no, I'll never go there.

But Zach Bryan.

Zach Bryan.

OK, OK.

That's yeah, that's how that aligns better with what I would.

Expect Yeah, yeah, mantra yeah, I always just I always come up with a mantra.

1:21:00

But like that directly correlates with correlates with the race.

OK, so breaking down the race in a different parts.

I always do that always something simple.

I don't know if you've seen Ed I Stone, you know Clayton Young and Connor Mansis coach.

1:21:16

Yeah.

He always comes up with these little short mantras to help them break their race down and and to race intelligently and focus.

But that's something that I always do for for all my races.

OK, what's an example of that?

Is it like, you know the first part?

1:21:31

What might be like be slow like like?

Relax like Boston.

Boston was patience, you know, because at first 10K you got that.

You got some rollers but slide downhill.

Yeah.

And then the second part of the Boston, the how I break it down, like I break it into four parts, 1st 10K, six through 16.

1:21:51

Then you got to Newton Hills and you got to finish.

That's how I break it down.

So it's, it's, it's that first part of Boston was like settle, settle in.

Second part of Boston was like click, click them off, like start dialing in pace, attack the hills.

1:22:06

Attack.

Yeah, and and then fucking send it.

What you.

Fucking run.

Oh.

Oh, that's good.

Yeah.

OK.

Yeah, I like that.

So I always, I always come up with something like that.

I talk to my athletes about it.

1:22:23

Yeah, that's that's typically what I do.

Yeah.

That's.

Cool fun fact, this was my first marathon.

The Monumental was my first marathon without headphones.

Let's go.

And I said I'm not going to run with headphones.

And then I said it when I was interviewing, you know, Sarah and Erica and Stephanie and dot.

1:22:39

And so then I was like, well, now I have to do it without headphones because I did still pack them just in case.

I like, panicked and changed my mind, but I didn't and I didn't miss them.

And I this surprised me so.

Had you?

Did you feel like you performed Bader without the headphones?

Well, yeah, I ran the fastest I ever have.

1:22:56

I mean, shoot, I was, I was trained for that.

But I just think there's something to be said about really dialing it in with your body and your mind and kind of having that connection without being distracted.

I find that music will just drown out anyway.

Like I won't even realize that I'm listening to music sometimes, like when I'm on a run or if I'm listening to like a podcast or a book anyway.

1:23:17

Like I find that sometimes I'll like just kind of zone out.

And so I was like, you know, I don't think I need it as much as I think I do.

And so I started just going for runs occasionally without it.

And I was training with another my a friend of mine, Becky, and we'd go on our long runs without music.

And I just kind of was like, OK, let's see.

1:23:33

And yeah, PR.

So clearly I don't need it.

Isn't it crazy trying to.

So yeah.

You had to taper yourself off the.

Music.

Wild.

Yes, I did.

I really did.

And I still like on easy runs we'll listen to podcasts or audiobooks sometimes, but.

For a workout for sure.

I'm I'm all about it.

When it comes to yeah, something else, then I'm I try not to use it like I, I like, I like really being too in tune my body, like you said.

1:23:57

Right, Yeah.

And then second question is your next finish line or milestone.

I mean, obviously Transcon is a enormous finish line for next year.

What else?

What else are you doing?

So professionally as a coach, I've got, I've got one girl potentially, well, I have two when my, when my other girl gets done on their cross country season.

1:24:24

But I want to, I want to develop and grow as a coach and I want to take them to the Olympic trials in 2028.

So professionally, I, I really want to help them.

I want, I want to have two athletes at the Olympic trials.

Obviously continue to do what I do with all my other athletes, you know, BQS and PRS and all of those things like that's very, very important to me.

1:24:47

So just continuing to grow professionally and, and, and get better at the coach and, and learning and, and, and things of that nature finish lines.

So as I'm approaching my master's error.

Oh.

Yeah, me too.

I'm excited about it.

1:25:03

I am too.

Give me more time to meet you.

That's for me.

And yeah.

I want to, I want to be running 2:30 or faster by the time I'm 40.

So that's another ball that I have.

OK, That's another goal that I have.

Like I want to be one of the top age groupers in the world.

1:25:20

As I, as I get older, like I, I want to continue to develop, get stronger, get better, get faster and be like somebody like Ken, ride out, you know, wow.

Hell yeah, because why the hell not?

I can do it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can.

1:25:35

It's amazing to me how as we age, like yeah, I'm getting faster.

I never thought that I'd run another sub 4 marathon.

I like put that behind me.

I checked the box and was like, I ran a sub four.

Now I don't need to run another marathon and then, yeah, that's not going to.

1:25:53

You're like, what's possible, you know, like what, what can I do?

Yeah, right.

That's how, that's how the race.

I mean, that's what it taught me.

Like it gave me an even greater hunger and fire and passion to like, really lean in and see what I can accomplish.

Yeah, well said.

1:26:10

Yeah.

And well, Speaking of hunger, I hope you can't hear my stomach growling.

You probably OK with your bagel?

But I'm like, now ready.

But Caleb, thank you so much for doing this.

I can't wait to meet you in person next year, hopefully, or maybe even before then.

Who knows, But I'm.

1:26:27

I'm cheering for you heading into next March and certainly before then with all your.

Training.

So I'm really excited and if there's ever, yeah, an opportunity for us to, to get together and get some miles in or just hang out and get some content, create some content together, let me know.

I'd love to.

Oh, that.

1:26:42

'D be fun.

For sure.

Yeah, absolutely.

And thank you to everybody who has listened and happy running.

If you enjoyed this Sandy Boy Productions podcast, please share, rate and review.

And again, enjoy the Thanksgiving holiday.

1:26:59

See you next week.