Finish Lines & Milestones: Episode 87

December 20, 2024

Here's a link to listen to this week's episode.

Guest: Amy Shinneman @ashinneman

Show Notes:

Amy Shinneman⁠ was born with ⁠Muscular Dystrophy ⁠but wasn't diagnosed until the age of 44. During this episode, we talk about:

How her and her husband, ⁠Jamie⁠, did the 50th year at Berlin and NYC … maybe Marine Corps Marathon in 2025? Tokyo in 2027?
All about the Berlin Marathon and getting to Europe for the first time
Tackling the World Majors and how they’re thinking about it
Living undiagnosed with a rare form of Muscular Dystrophy for 44 years
What it was like becoming a mom with an (unknown) disability
How she finally got a diagnosis of ⁠Bethlem Myopathy ⁠and how life was different after
The ⁠MDA⁠ and the work she’s done with them
What it’s like being a mom with a disability
How her husband, Jamie, got into running because of their kids
Getting a duo bike from MDA and doing her first marathon with her husband pushing at the Chicago Marathon
How her son finished third in his age group at the New York City Marathon and received a Tiffany’s plate
Race experiences and what she keeps in the duo bike during a race
How one of her sons taught her to run on an underwater treadmill
Using stem cell therapy as a way to treat MD
The mental health side of having a disability
“Once you’ve met a person with a disability, you’ve met one person with a disability”
The fact that people judge her (and have screamed at her) for parking in an accessible parking spot

Thank you to ⁠Fringe Heals⁠ for supporting this episode. Use code ALLY25 for 25% off your order through 12/31/24.

This is a ⁠SandyBoy Productions⁠ podcast.

Episode Transcript:

0:00

This is a Sandy Boy Productions podcast.

Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones, a podcast that celebrates the everyday runner.

I'm your host, Ali Brett Knocker.

Whether you're a season marathoner, half marathoner, ultra marathoner, prefer shorter distances or just getting started, if you run, you are a runner.

0:21

And every runner has a story.

Join me each week as I share these stories and we cross finish lines and celebrate milestones together.

This episode is brought to you by Fringe Heels.

0:37

If you've been on social media, you've probably seen videos and pictures of people wearing these masks with red light or devices with red light.

And they're using it to benefit health in some way.

And if you're like me, you're like, what the heck is that?

What does it do?

0:53

So first of all, go to fringeheels.com in order to read up on the science behind red light.

In general, red light therapy will improve cellular energy production, reduce inflammation, increase blood flow, enhance tissue oxygenation, boost collagen production, improve cellular resilience, and reduce cellular toxicity.

1:17

That's a lot of benefits, so go read about the science if you're more curious.

But for runners or for women the age of 38 like myself, it can be used to help with recovery.

So you can use the wraps on parts of your body to help with recovery.

1:33

You can also use it on your face with the face mask to get rid of wrinkles, help with acne, which I'm personally looking forward to.

But there's a lot of uses for this technology and Fringe is kind enough to have given me a code for 25% off.

1:48

So if you use Code Alley ALLY 25 before the end of the year, you get 25% off.

Now their products have been so popular that they're actually on back order and start shipping again early February.

But if you know this is something that you want to try, go ahead and use that code and get your mask when I will be getting mine in early February and we can give it a try together.

2:11

Thank you, friend, for supporting this podcast.

Hello, and welcome to episode 87.

This is Allie, and it's almost Christmas.

I wish I could tell you I'm all ready for the holidays, but I have a few.

Things left to do, more like 300 things it feels like, but trying not to stress, trying to enjoy and focus on, you know, the things that of course matter during the holidays.

2:35

We get an opportunity to travel to Alexandria, VA, in the DC area the day after Christmas, and then we're going to Florida as well, Naples area to ring in the new year.

So I'm really looking forward to time with family, some time in the sun, hopefully, and I'm really grateful for what's been a really great year.

2:55

I'll do some more reflecting in my final episode of the year next week.

So I'm not actually taking a break from the podcast 'cause I got ahead of schedule this time and I have an interview previously recorded that I will release next Friday as well.

So without further ado, I am honored to introduce you to Amy Shinneman.

3:14

Amy is incredible.

And Amy was born with a rare form of muscular dystrophy called Bethem myopathy, and she was not diagnosed until the age of 44, which is crazy to think about living so long, so much of your life without knowing what is causing the problems that you have with your body, what's causing your disability.

3:41

And so she finally got the answer at age 44.

She is now 50, which is hard to believe if you just, if you look at Amy, she looks like a totally normal person, right?

And in fact, she has been yelled and screamed at for parking in handicap accessible parking spaces before, which blew my mind.

4:01

But you wouldn't know it.

And she still has a lot of her independence.

And when we met, she walked and came to meet me, which I so appreciate.

And the way that she runs is her own way.

So she runs with her husband Jamie by being in a duo bike and he pushes her.

4:23

So they did Chicago in 2019.

They've since done New York, Boston, Berlin and are chasing the majors.

But it's incredible to hear about those experiences that she's had with Jamie, what it's like to be a mom with a disability.

4:38

You know, how she became a mom and the mental health side of being somebody with a disability.

This episode is sure to inspire you and remind you that you get to run and you have the opportunity and not everybody does.

And everybody runs in their own way.

4:56

And and this is how Amy does.

So enjoy this conversation with Amy Shinnaman.

Okay, welcome Amy Shineman.

Thank you.

You are wearing your Berlin jacket, Yes, and it's beautiful.

Yes, the gold you like the.

Gold is so nice.

5:11

Yeah, that's right.

It was there.

Was it their 50th?

It was, yeah.

And New York just had their 50th.

We did that one too.

And you did the 50th at New York.

That's so cool.

Yeah, I'm very jealous.

A lot of fun.

That makes it even more fun, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think Marine Corps next year is 50 years.

5:27

Yep.

So are you?

Going to do that?

We've talked about it.

I don't know.

We'll see a lot of hills there, right?

So with the bike.

Yeah, the wheels on the hill.

I remember that actually, because we passed and I was just like, oh, these hills are brutal.

Something you have to think about.

5:42

Yeah, New York was a little bit in Boston, of course.

But right.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So no big deal then at that point.

Yeah.

Well, you and I have known each other on social media for a long time.

Long time.

I can't remember how I initially got connected to you.

6:00

I was thinking about that too.

Did I just receive your awesome gift in the mail?

Maybe.

And then you're like, hey.

Yeah, I think.

I mean, that could have been.

I don't know, I was trying to remember as well but.

And I was also Now I'm trying to remember.

I should have looked it up before this.

We have a mutual friend.

6:16

Who is in Jordan?

Jordan, yes.

Huffman.

Yeah.

Jordan Huffman.

I am very good friends with her sister Jill.

That's right.

That's.

So I've become to know her through.

Yeah.

So maybe, maybe somehow through Jordan, but I don't know.

I feel like Jordan and I just figured out that we both knew you.

6:32

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know.

Anyway, India is a small big town, so we are connected and we're finally meeting in person, which I've wanted to do for a long time.

So thank you so much for.

Coming.

Good day.

So Congrats again on Berlin.

Thank you.

So had you been to Europe before?

6:49

Never, never.

It was both of our first time.

Both of your.

First time, so that was a lot of new for that trip, you know?

Yeah, learning to travel with the bike and of course we traveled with it, but not overseas.

How does that work?

7:06

It's a process sounds like.

A pain in the ass.

Yeah.

So maybe for people that don't know what we're talking about, we're talking about no, it's called a duo bike, and it's basically like a racing wheelchair, I guess.

There's a lot of different names.

7:23

We call it a duo bike.

And essentially my husband pushes me in all these races.

So to travel with it, you have to take it apart and it travels in this giant bag that people often are like, is there a body in there?

7:40

Yeah.

And then it has a separate bag for the wheel.

So it's, it's a lot.

And then of course, I'm travelling with my wheelchair.

So we had friends that were the husband was also running Berlin and they offered to be our travel buddies.

7:55

Oh, that's nice.

And help us.

And we couldn't have done it without them.

So it was just an amazing thing they did for us.

And of course, we had a great time as well.

Yeah.

So through the airport, I guess you bring it to checked bags right when you get there, but you probably have, does it have wheels on the bags for you to be able to carry or you just have to put it on a?

8:16

We put it on one of those carts, but it would be nice if it had wheels, right?

To be able to drag it through, yeah.

Because I've seen people with like, skis or golf clubs trying to finagle that in the airport.

It's hard.

Yeah, since since it's an assistive device, it travels for free, which is nice.

8:31

Good.

Yeah, yeah.

We thought about shipping it, but we're always afraid like.

What's going to get it was lost yeah.

I wouldn't want to let that out of my sight.

It's hard enough with the trusting the airlines, I'm sure right.

Yeah.

And then gosh.

OK so you get to Europe.

8:48

I picture How accessible is Europe for a wheelchair because I pictured just all the cobblestones and.

You're exactly right.

Yep, it was a very bumpy several days.

It was, I think the comment I made to Jamie, my husband was I couldn't be independent here.

9:06

There's there was too many like the curb cutouts weren't smooth like they are here and the bumpy streets.

And so that was my thought.

It wasn't horrible, horrible, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like it is here.

9:22

Here, how does the bumpiness impact you?

Would that like give you a headache?

I just try to picture like just dealing with that for days it's.

Rougher than you might think.

I think it definitely.

It's exhausting in a way just because you're.

Tensing up to try to not like fly out.

9:38

Yeah, yeah, you're constantly afraid that you're going to.

And we did have some close calls like.

So it's interesting that we were both very glad that we did it and just I don't know if you want me to get into the race itself and how.

I'd love to hear about it.

9:54

So like I, that was our fifth marathon.

So we had done Chicago, New York, Indy, Boston and then all those races.

Each one's a little bit different and how we start the race or how we get to the starting line.

10:12

And so Berlin was very different in that they didn't have like, like a village for athletes with disabilities that were usually transported to.

They usually have a pretty good system with a bus or whatever to get us there to this kind of special holding area.

Berlin didn't have any of that.

10:29

So, you know, interesting.

Yeah.

So that was different.

And the start lane was the biggest difference.

We were started in our corral sea, which is, you know how they would do it if you were running the race normally, they put you with your time.

10:45

Instead of starting us, we usually we would start up front behind the wheelchair racers and so that we even mentioned at packet pickup when we were talking to them.

Like Are you sure you don't want to?

Like, you know it's not only dangerous for us, but other people.

11:01

And so we, I'm our bet, I'm like, well, our best option is to get there early and just get right up at the front of Coral Sea.

Like what else?

What else can we do?

Yeah.

And so that was our plan and we got there and we're at the front.

And then just I couldn't believe how many bodies were able to squeeze in front of us.

11:20

Like I had way underestimated, you know, the how much people really were on the beginning on top of the wheel of my bike and to the like, they were everywhere.

Like they might as well just be sitting in there with you.

They might as well if Yeah, yeah.

So it was it was that.

11:36

I don't know.

That gave me a lot of anxiety and and him too, because it's such a, you know, our main goal is to not, of course, hit anyone with right.

And the bike has a very long, you've seen it, but for people that haven't, it's got two wheels in the back and then a very long it.

11:54

Was like a nose.

A nose and then a wheel at the end of that.

So it's you have to be.

That's pretty much my responsibility other than providing Jamie's water, nutrition that he needs, but is to watch out for other people.

Yeah.

And this race, that's all, absolutely all we did him.

12:13

And like, I don't know how he did it, focusing on running and then also looking out for other people.

Think there were 58 1000 signed up to run something and I.

Cannot believe they had you start with their runners.

That's in me.

12:29

For a world major not to have, first of all, not to have a special place for people with disabilities.

Mind blowing.

And then to have you in the midst of everybody.

And then I would imagine there's people that don't have a time like you guys would, right that are even further back.

12:46

Right, Yeah.

And so I think like to clarify, they had of course, the wheelchair racers started up front.

They just didn't have a spot for the duo bikes.

OK, yeah, which but still.

I will say they've been very open in that discussion.

13:01

That's that we're trying to get that change for future duo bikes there.

I write A blog and I've sent that and they took that to their your meetings and I'm hopeful they're going to make that change for the future.

So that would be really great, yes.

And your blog is humblycourageous.com.

13:19

Correct.

That's right.

Yeah, go read her blog.

I was like, OK, I need to stop reading.

I feel like I'm going to know like way too much.

I kind of like to know.

I like to know some, but then I also like to just be able to have a, you know, first time conversation.

But it's incredible how talented of a writer you are.

13:35

Thank you.

Yeah.

Of course I appreciate that.

Absolutely.

I enjoy it.

Yeah.

And so, OK, so you get going and you're just battling people.

How was the race overall?

Like, do you, does Jamie have, you know, time goals like he would if he were running alone?

13:51

How does that work?

Yeah, we do.

He is very competitive and I think he wanted to be at like 3-15 maybe we ended up 320 6 or.

Something like that, like.

I said I don't know numbers like a.

Kid, I'm confused.

14:07

He's going to be like, Dang it, I.

Know, but yeah, he we he's trains to run times.

So he was a ran several marathons before we started running together.

He was a Boston qualifier twice before that.

14:24

So he's definitely, he's speedy in it to yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, the idea of running like a sub 330 pushing.

Yeah, it's incredible.

It's really incredible because the bike is heavy.

It's really heavy, Yeah.

And then, you know, you put me in it and it's like, you know, he's heavier.

14:45

Yeah.

You're pushing a Yeah, He's pushing an adult around, yes.

Yeah, I I did the mini this year.

Is it still 2024?

It is.

I did the mini with Ainsley's Angels this last.

Year.

So I have some experience and our girl was is 9 just turned 10 yesterday actually.

15:04

But she so it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a full adult.

And like looking around with the other the other athletes, you're like, huh, yeah, it could be a lot more difficult pushing an adult.

Yeah.

So that's just, I'm just in awe.

That's awesome that you did that.

Though I'm going to do it every year now.

15:20

Amazing.

Yes, it was the most incredible, Yeah.

And especially at the the mini, I mean, what AI mean?

It's just it was perfect, right.

So yeah, I'm excited to do that and continue to recruit people to have that same experience.

That's great.

They always need.

There's so many people that want that experience, but not a lot of pushers.

15:38

Yeah, yeah.

So here I am.

So everyone else listening, yes, come to the indie mini and or in these angels is all over the place.

So anyway, so congratulations again on Berlin.

So cool.

It seems like you've already mentioned Chicago, New York, Boston.

15:56

So what about the others?

What about London and Tokyo?

Are those on your radar?

Is that something that you're tackling or?

It is, yeah.

You know, we wanted to do, you know, all the, all the majors, of course, they just added Sydney.

16:12

Yeah.

What was your reaction to that?

Well.

Oh my gosh, funny enough I have another.

I have a friend that lives in Australia that has my same rare type of muscular dystrophy.

No way.

And so we want to go there anyway, so we'll see.

16:27

OK.

We'd love to do it, but it was kind of like, oh man.

Well, I think of people chasing the majors and thinking, well, now they're talking about South Africa.

I'm just like, OK, so that's kind of annoying.

Yeah, a little bit.

It's like, OK, I already how about I just do what I set out to do?

16:45

But it's then it's like, do you not get the original medal?

I know we don't know.

Yeah.

And we don't even know if we could, we are would qualify for that medal or not.

And there's been some, you know, we're not sure, but in our minds, complete all of the world majors, then you.

17:04

Should get the battle.

Yeah, Yeah, I will go to battle with you for that.

That is that would be very well deserved, especially given like what you've already described about just getting yourself to the start line is so much different than just your average Joe going and doing that, which anybody doing all of them is not average, but you know.

17:22

Exactly.

Yeah.

So I am so curious about your life and being undiagnosed with a rare disease for as long as you were.

Right.

And I heard you tell the story about how you kind of first realized you were different, but I would love for you to tell listeners about kind of how you figured that out and and what growing up was like.

17:49

Yeah, so I, I think you're probably referring to the story from nursery school and we were playing Duck, Duck, Goose.

And I, I quickly just realized, like with that game, it's so physical.

And everyone quickly realized that, you know, I wasn't that I was an easy target.

18:09

And so like I said, I was, you know, Goose many times.

And that's when I was kind of like, and I, I remember that just thinking, wow, I'm different from everybody else.

Before that, you know, I'd had surgeries and but when you're around other kids, like other than your family and, you know, you really start to stand out in those school years.

18:33

And yeah, so that was it was difficult.

Did your parents know at birth or they when did they know something was different?

When I wasn't walking by 17 months, I would pull up on things and but I wouldn't let ever let go.

18:49

And so they took me to the paediatrician and just thought because I had an older sister.

And so they're you know, you compare your kids, that's just what you do.

And that just kind of started 44 years of searching for diagnosis.

19:07

You know, we went to the Mayo Clinic many times.

We all I've seen all kinds of doctors.

I've been misdiagnosed more times than I could count.

So that was.

What are some examples of your misdiagnosis?

They were sort of in the ballpark, a lot like with spinal muscular atrophy, chacomery tooth disease, all kinds of nerve disease.

19:33

I never, like exactly fit a mold because I do have a rare form of muscular dystrophy, which a lot of muscular dystrophies are rare types.

There's many forms of muscular dystrophy.

Yeah.

And so it would, you know, it was just constant searching and testing and, you know, through all those years and my parents, when I got married to Jamie, you know, kind of baton was passed and he became that person that was going with me to all these doctor's appointments and.

20:07

It's not like you come to a point where you're ever like, all right, I'm just going to accept this.

If you, you have some like if you go to the doctor and you have a viral illness, for example, it bugs you that you don't know like and you can't fix it.

So imagine like that's your life and it's like for 44 years, you don't have answers in it.

20:29

It's such this like space of uncertainty and you can't really ever settle.

The worst part was, you know, you, you see me walk, it's, I walk with a pretty significant limp.

It's very obvious that I have a disability.

20:46

And the worst part, you know, growing up is a lot of times people would be curious what's wrong with your legs.

And I wouldn't, I would feel so silly because I didn't know and I didn't have an answer.

And I would just feel like I didn't really know who I was fully as a person.

21:04

There was this giant missing piece.

And so that, you know, I had a great, I was lucky.

I had a lot of good friends and did deal with like some teasing and school.

And, you know, there were the the kids, the jerks.

21:20

Yeah.

But for the most part, I was really accepted by my peers, and I had a lot of people that were in my corner and, you know, that helped me so much.

And so I have to say, you know, despite everything, I had a really good school experience overall.

21:39

That's good, yeah.

And you and Jamie are high school sweethearts.

We are, yeah.

Which is just you guys are this just the cutest?

I mean, we think about, I mean, you're accepted by your peers, but dating and all the awkward stuff that comes with being in high school, What was that like?

22:01

And did you have other boyfriends before Jamie, I'm assuming or?

Yes, and I had Jamie and I broke up after high school, during college, so we both dated other people.

OK.

So yeah, I dating that he was my first, you know, I guess real boyfriend.

22:20

OK, Yeah.

So we met in the science hallway at Noblesville High School.

We were kind of introduced by mutual friends.

And so we've started dating, and it became pretty serious.

He had first noticed me in a class that we had together.

22:40

Somehow I landed myself in AP geography.

And I was like, the first day.

I'm like what am I doing in here?

This doesn't seem like it's going to be fun.

Jamie was the smart guy and so I somehow I got in that class when, you know, 10 minutes and I raised my hand and said I need to go to the counselor I don't want.

23:01

To.

I don't want to be in this class.

So that's when he first saw me like get up and walk and 1st noticed like you know so he had already seen me and knew that I had a disability.

I don't, I don't remember like it being like a huge, I mean, he would ask me stuff about it.

23:21

He's the first person that I really truly, deeply opened up to about like how, you know, I, I opened up to my friends.

But this was just a different level of like letting someone in, I guess to that world where I didn't really know what was going on.

23:41

And I dealt with a lot of like internal battles with that because there wasn't really anybody I would talk to people and it would just kind of fall flat because for no fault of their own, they just didn't understand.

Right or no, I didn't do or say.

23:57

Right.

Yeah.

There was nothing that can make it better, but somehow he was comforting.

And back in high school, I was.

My disease is progressive, so I'm a lot worse off now than I was then.

I still walked similarly, but I didn't use a cane or a wheelchair.

24:18

So I was going to ask you about that.

I mean, I would after surge, I had lots of surgeries and I would use it then occasionally, but he didn't have to help me like walk.

I was pretty independent.

Stairs were hard, that kind of thing.

24:33

But I wasn't an athlete or anything like that.

But but, you know, much youth, you know, I mean, I'm battling age and a progressive disease.

So things I always say, like I am having to adapt to this disease and how it's affecting me.

24:52

And but so is he as my husband.

He's learning just as rapidly as I am.

Like, you know, he doesn't skip a beat, you know.

Yeah, probably get emotional.

Yeah, rightfully so.

But yeah, it's he's amazing, like you said.

25:10

How long have you been?

Married.

Oh gosh, 25 years.

Yeah.

Just celebrated our 25th.

Did you?

Do anything special for that milestone?

Kind of, you know, Berlin was around that time, so we kind of threw that in as this is our celebration.

25:25

But yeah. 25 years.

Yeah, yeah.

And you guys have two boys.

Two boys.

That are are they both adults now?

21 He's at Purdue and then senior at Noblesville.

OK.

Is he also going to go to Purdue?

25:41

He wants to.

OK, we'll see.

See.

He doesn't know yet.

Yeah, well, right now cheering on that Yeah ball team's been a little.

That's that's a little rough, yeah.

I'm a Boilermaker by marriage, OK?

Yeah.

Wow, So was having kids, did you know that you could or was that something that you had to just try and see?

26:01

Like did they because you're, you know, it's such a rare form of muscular dystrophy so that they had people before who had had kids successfully or.

Yeah.

Well, so I didn't know that I had muscular dystrophy still because I was in my late 20s when I had kids.

26:18

But it was definitely a discussion that we had with doctors and they were always just, I don't probably guessing like now there's a 5050 chance your kids would be affected.

And kind of, I growing up always was like, I'm not going to have kids.

26:34

I think it was more of just like a protecting myself from that let down because I, I don't know, in my mind, I, I kind of thought maybe I couldn't.

Yeah.

But when we got married and we both, I mean, I knew Jamie really wanted kids and I don't know whatever that is that happens that you're suddenly like, I want a baby.

26:57

Yeah, right.

That switch.

That's how I started feeling.

And I just, it happened, you know, easily and, you know, I here we are and I the pregnancies were certainly not easy.

I was going to say, you get it's like got to be like 100 times harder.

27:15

It was very difficult, I mean also don't have height to go in my favorite 5/2.

Yeah.

So it was difficult, but All in all, I'd say my body handled it amazingly crazy.

27:31

I had two C sections.

Those take a toll.

They do, I've had two as well.

So, you know, I think after the pregnancies there was some decline.

Obviously well worth it, Wouldn't change it, right?

And so, yeah, I feel very fortunate that not only I was able to carry two children, but they are both runners, They are not affected.

27:55

And so that's been really cool to see.

Yeah.

Were they able to test in utero?

No, no, because they didn't know what to test for.

Yeah, I keep forgetting that.

It's like in my head, it's like, oh, yeah, you were different.

They knew.

I just keep thinking, like, how could you go though?

28:11

Yeah, I'm probably going to do that again.

That's OK. 44 years.

Yeah.

Remind myself of that.

So how did you finally figure it out?

I was, I see the neurologist every six months, and for some reason, at this visit, he comes into the room, tosses this genetic test on the counter, and he's like, hey, would you be interested in doing this genetic test?

28:39

And I'm like, trying not to freak out because I'm like, so excited.

Yeah.

Genetic testing, you know, back when I was younger, it was just not an option because it, it wasn't as widely done.

It was outrageously expensive.

You know, there weren't.

28:55

It's come a long way.

Basically, I had to spit in a tube and send it off.

And I was like, of course, you know, I want to do that.

Yeah.

And we got the results back and it showed something he wasn't expecting.

29:12

He actually, he actually accidentally ordered the wrong test and it showed that I had muscular dystrophy.

He.

Accidentally ordered the wrong.

Test Bethlehem myopathy is what it's called.

And so my he was still like, I don't know, like I have other patients that have this.

29:31

You just don't fit the mold exactly.

And but the geneticist was like, she was sure, but she's like, so they did another type of testing and then they also tested my parents.

And there was just no denying, you know?

29:48

So your parents carry a gene that then gets passed on.

Yes, and they both did.

So that's even more rare.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was going to say, how hard would that be to be like, well, I have it and my husband doesn't, And then it's like, you feel like it's your fault, right, Right.

30:04

Even though.

Nobody's fault, but I'm sure that that it was.

And so the way that all happened is even more, you know, it was meant to be.

This is my life.

It was meant to be this way is the way I feel about it.

Yeah.

Yeah, and the things that you're doing for other people with disabilities and other people who have muscular dystrophy, you are now the national ambassador.

30:29

I was.

You are were OK, you have been the national ambassador and originally you were ambassador for Indiana.

I guess back up and and what is the MDA?

What do they do?

Yeah.

So the MDA is something that I was sort of involved with when I was younger because like I said, IA lot of doctors thought I was similar to having muscular dystrophy, but not.

30:55

So I kind of got put into these clinics that they would have, or I was even a camp counselor at the Muscular Dystrophy Association.

They hold summer camps for for these kids.

And so I actually had my doctor was like be a great camp counselor.

31:12

And yeah, so I went to that and, you know, I was 1819 and I was like, I felt like, wow, like I really fit in with these people.

This is amazing.

I'd never been around a group of people like that that I could identify so closely with.

31:29

And it was do.

They have those summer camps in all states.

They.

Do OK.

Yeah.

So that's part of what they do MDA has become very heavy into research, genetic medicine.

So MDA's kind of evolved throughout the years.

31:48

They used to be more of like they would have local offices where you could go and like rent assistive devices, like equipment.

It's a little less of that now since COVID, they've transitioned on to more like a national level.

32:06

And so they have they have a lot of different mentorship programs, a lot of support for people with muscular dystrophy.

They have the MDA clinics at a lot of different hospitals.

There's one at Riley for kids.

So that's that's a place where you could go and get all your care and one day, like pulmonologist, because muscular dystrophy affects the lungs, the heart, you know, neurologist, you can see all of those people.

32:36

Yeah.

Gosh, that's, that's nice.

Yes, yeah.

So when I got diagnosed, my life really changed instantly because I didn't, it was like AI didn't have to worry about that searching.

32:51

Like it freed up so much space in my mind and just my time and I just became laser focused on.

I wanted to be the person for someone else that I always needed.

I wanted to like be that resource or someone they could look up to that like went to college, had kids, got married.

33:15

And so I went to the at the time there was a local MDA office and I went and talked to them and started as a local ambassador.

Like I just was like so hungry to like do anything to like help.

And just so I did that.

33:32

I applied to be state ambassador was chosen for that which I was the growing up.

I was the state and the Indiana Easter seal child for a couple of years.

So.

What is that?

Similar, like you go, you're kind of just representing people with disabilities, public speaking and different events.

33:53

So I kind of was familiar with that type of role, but just with a different organization.

And then so MDAT Momentum is MDA's running team.

And so we had gotten to know their national director pretty well and he called me one day and he's like, Hey, how would you like to, you know, interview to be national ambassador?

34:20

And I was like, it was really strange because I'm one of those people that like kind of writes out their goal.

Big, big goals, just writing ridiculous stuff that you probably think would never happen down.

I had just snapped that book closed almost after writing that.

34:38

And he calls and I had written, I mean, and this is like to me very far in the future.

So it was just kind of a stunning moment.

And so I interviewed and got chosen and did that for two years.

And when was that?

22 and 23.

34:55

OK, so I wasn't super far off, right?

OK, sounds like I swore.

It was very recent.

OK.

Yeah.

OK.

So two years you do that is that everyone has a two year stint.

Some one, some 2, very rarely three.

OK, Yeah.

And so you just go around and and speak and.

35:14

Yeah, I, I mean, unfortunately for me, they were, you know, coming off of COVID, things were just getting back going.

So I didn't get as much of that, you know, national travel experiences as maybe others.

35:30

But I did, I did a lot of stuff, you know, I did a lot of public speaking and some of it was virtual, which I'm horrible at.

And I.

Virtual is awful, yeah.

It was not my thing, but, you know, I made my way through and it was all just AII was learning to share my story while I was the national ambassador.

35:52

I mean, it was all pretty new to me, sharing my story like that, that openly.

Yeah.

So it's kind of like, boom, here you are and you're speaking to like, you know, these crowds of people and, and sharing these very personal details, which I chose to do.

36:10

I think it's it's not easy to be that vulnerable.

And in my writing, like I write for the Hamilton County Reporter and I also have a weekly column with them and then my blog and Hamilton County Tourism and you're kind of putting yourself out there for people to judge or what, you know, whatever.

36:30

But it's been a positive experience.

But I, I didn't, you know, that was new, sharing things in that way.

When I first started speaking, I couldn't speak without crying.

Well, yeah, because it was just like I was working through all those.

36:47

I mean, I still, you know, will get choked up, but I got better at that.

And and so it, I, I grew so much in that role, like just as a person and as, you know, seeing those connections, I would have these young girls reach out, you know, teens and asking me questions.

37:06

I've had several ladies reach out that wanted to have babies.

And I know at least three people that have had reached out that have now had babies and said that is a really awesome.

And they still ask me questions.

37:23

And I love that.

Like that's, that's amazing to be able to be a resource like that for somebody.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean almost therapeutic in a way, like you said, like you're literally working through your life's trauma on stage.

37:40

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean that's.

And through my writing, I mean, that's been very healing.

And but that is exactly what I'm doing, is just reliving those stories.

Some are horrible, some are funny, some are great, you know?

Yeah, Yeah.

But it's been, you know, that's been awesome for me as well as other people.

38:00

Yeah, and how?

Or, I was going to say, have you ever thought about writing a book?

We have.

Yeah, putting all those.

Working on it.

OK, there we go.

Yeah, that would be really, I mean, interesting for people who have just have no idea what your life is truly like or has been like.

38:19

Yeah, yeah, I know there's a lot of people that go without a diagnosis for a long time, but you don't meet those people every day in your life.

And it's just, it's a different unique story I think to share.

38:35

And what is it like being a mom?

But the whole thing, I mean, you know, it's really freaking hard being pregnant and giving birth and raising kids.

So we my husband and I lived and we after college we moved to Memphis, TN and lived there for I lived there for five years and he lived there for six that we knew when we started a family we wanted to come.

39:00

Our families are both live in Carmel, Noblesville, and I'm so glad we did that because I couldn't have, you know, I have a unique living situation where my sister and I both live by my parents, like kind of the family compound.

39:19

And so that that was immensely helpful in the young, you know, the younger years with kids are just so physical.

I mean, it's so physical.

It's exhausting, as I'm sure you would agree.

Right.

And it's like I'm thinking, yeah.

There were and I was also working part time and so there were a lot of nights where my husband would carry me to bed.

39:42

I just would get to the point where I couldn't.

But I gave everything I had, like we do to our kids and.

Do you have stairs in your home?

No.

No, no.

When we built our house, we.

Oh, you got to build your house?

Yeah, we built.

That's so nice.

Very small stair in the garage.

39:58

That's it.

Yeah.

So it's pretty.

Not fully accessible.

I was not in a wheelchair at the time that we moved in.

So if I get to the place right right now I'm what's it called an ambulatory wheelchair user, which can be confusing for people.

40:18

I use my wheelchair sometimes in the house, but mostly like when I met you today, I'm using my cane, but if we're out for any any type of distance, I'll have my wheelchair.

So what I've been told it'll just, I'm going to continue to decline and maybe maybe I will.

40:37

Maybe I won't be in a wheelchair full time.

We'll see.

Yeah.

But yes, raising the boys was awesome, but also difficult.

I mean, and then when they get older, it becomes more emotionally difficult, you know, dealing with that.

40:54

But I learned my way.

We adapted in our own family way.

My kids have a totally different experience than a lot of kids having a mom with a disability.

My older son wrote.

Well, actually both of my sons now wrote their college essays about what that experience was like growing up with a mom that had a disability.

41:17

Of course there were difficult times.

Kids are embarrassed of their parents when they don't have a disability.

And you know, they would, you know, their friends were would ask.

And I found myself, which is something I kind of regret, but I found myself avoiding school parties or, you know, being hands on in the classroom sort of to protect them.

41:42

And I regret not using that as more of a teaching experience that I could have.

But again, I didn't know what I was dealing with.

So it was hard to to do that.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

But you know, my boys are amazing.

41:59

They they've learned a lot through having a parent and not only that, but seeing their dad in the role that he plays.

Yeah.

And so they we all want to like, do a family marathon because my kids are runners.

And so, yeah, they're, they're amazing.

42:19

Did they?

When did they start running?

So my my oldest son was a soccer player.

My husband was a soccer player in high school.

He wasn't a runner and my son had a soccer game, but he decided he was going to go to the elementary fun run one mile thing before his game.

42:41

And so he went out and ran like A5, I don't know, 5-30 mile or something.

He was like in second grade or I don't remember exactly.

And so that he kind of that kind of started everything, the whole running journey for all of us.

43:00

He became, he kind of trans played, continued to play soccer, but then transitioned.

My kids ran for a team called body and training.

It's like a club team.

I think you know, Carmel, everybody has one for younger kids to compete.

43:17

We got very involved in that as a family.

And so that's how Jamie started running because my son Luke was so young, but he'd want to go on these long runs and we're like, well, no way.

He's going by himself and so.

You're up, Dad.

43:32

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so that's how that started.

And then his brother, you know, started running and now he runs at the high school.

And my Luke just ran the New York City Marathon this past one, and he ran it with us to a few years ago.

43:51

OK, Yeah, that's really cool.

Yeah.

It's so special.

So when did Jamie do his first race?

Don't know.

We were trying to think about the I think he did Indy for several years.

The monumental or the OK?

44:07

I think he did the mini too, but, and then he qualified and did Boston twice and he had seen these duo bikes and he would mention it to me and I'm like, yeah, no, no thanks.

I the why would I put myself in?

44:22

I mean, when you, when you, I get in this bike and you're everyone's staring, right?

That's the last thing I want.

And I'm like, please, no, I'm, I had tried to avoid that, but so he would, he kept talking.

I'm like, I just don't want to do it.

I'm not interested.

44:38

And then he ran Boston in 2019 and I was there on cheering him on.

And we went to the Expo and they had a duo bike.

I forget which organization it could have been the one that you.

Ran Oh yeah, I don't know.

44:54

I don't know.

There's a few others.

But they let me sit in the duo bike and they pushed me around and I'm like this.

I, you know, I'm like, well, I started thinking like, maybe this would be cool.

And, you know, so I've, I was giving it a little bit more of a chance in my mind, but still a little reluctant.

45:14

And then I think it was in July, the MDA's national director Team Momentum, he called and they had MDA had this loaner bike, duo bike that other people had used.

45:30

It was originally a guy's that was his wife had ALS and he was going to push her in it.

And unfortunately she passed away before.

And so a lot of people had used the bike since then.

It had been passed down I think to three or four different people.

45:48

And so they offered it to us.

So we went to Chicago and picked it up and got it the car and we stopped.

I think in Naperville.

We wanted to test it out or we had been in Naperville before.

They had a really cool trail.

So Jamie's like, let's just try it out.

46:06

And I'm like, if anyone calls us a stroller, I'm going to lose my money.

Yeah.

So we get out.

I mean, we're like walking through the streets of Naperville, this giant bike.

And this lady had her kid and she was, she's like, watch out, honey.

46:22

There's a giant stroller coming through.

I'm like, well, there it is, a giant.

Stroller.

And there's been a lot of comments, you know, a lot of people are nice, but a lot of people like, look at it like they're like, what the heck is going?

You know it's.

46:38

Just yeah.

But, you know, whatever.

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46:55

And so each time we'd go out, I got more used to it.

And then so we thought, well, we'll start, we'll do a 5K Jamie's like, that'd be a good way to, you know, see what this is like.

I don't know how much time went by.

Get a call from the national director again, he's like, hey, we've got a duo spot for Chicago Marathon 2019.

47:19

So it have been Jamie's second of the year with Spike.

And so we eventually obviously said yes and started immediately trainings.

I guess it was pretty shortly after we got the bike that that was put on the table.

47:36

Wow.

So we were learning like all this, you know, the way that we do it is Jamie trains normally for a marathon, and then on Saturdays we do our long runs together in the bike.

Gotcha.

So he's really only training with the bike one day a week.

47:52

OK, but that's the really long runs.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

And so we started doing this training stuff and figuring it out and went to Chicago and a lot we had like a ton of family and friends that went and it was awesome.

48:08

And Chicago was a great experience as a first marathon, just, you know, the way they treated the athletes with disabilities and it was really cool.

Yeah, and that one being flat was probably not a good one to start too.

Yeah.

So what was the experience like in Chicago for you?

48:27

Like in comparison, say to to Berlin?

Yeah, so it was good.

I mean, we started, it was, it was different than the other races.

They kind of just we got to start like separately from the corrals.

But maybe it was it just worked a little bit differently.

48:44

I don't remember exactly.

We started kind of alone with some other duo bikes.

Chicago was the first time that I learned what trapped adrenaline felt like for me, because you've got all that excitement and all that leading up to it, and then you get to the start line and there's all this just like you would have.

49:06

I had that too.

I mean, maybe in a different way, but I was.

And so when you start running, you're probably releasing some of that.

Mine doesn't have anywhere to go, and I didn't.

I had no idea that.

And it feels horrible, like it, it has this really awful effect on the body, like shaking and.

49:27

I never would have thought.

Yeah.

And so I didn't know what I was dealing with.

I thought I was sick or.

So we stopped and that ruined our time.

And but I just, I didn't, I was, I just didn't feel well and.

49:42

Just like shaking, like feeling faint, almost like.

Nauseous.

You're just physically shaking, very emotional, like, I don't know, it's kind of hard to explain.

And then the other thing with the duo bike, which is it's a really awesome thing that it can also be so exhausting and it's hard for Jamie to is when the duo bike comes through, people go crazy.

50:09

The crowds like they just go crazy.

And that is like when you're dealing with that for that 26 miles, it's like it's overwhelming, It's exhausting.

I'm, I mean, I get into it.

I'm like got my cowbell, had several cowbell injuries on on my finger on.

50:30

My finger.

We laugh about that, but but it's, it's, it's exhausting on a different level, I guess is a way to put it, But it was, it was amazing.

I so much to take in and see and of course, seeing our friends and family along the way.

50:46

It was really cool.

And then getting to that first finish line was like, you know, I never thought I would be crossing a marathon finish line.

And it was just, it was emotional obviously for both of us, But I think we crossed that line and we're like, when's the net?

51:02

We know we're going to do this again.

You're right, Jamie.

Yeah, this is.

Cool.

How did you start back up after you were feeling so terrible?

Like versus saying, oh, this isn't going to work.

Yeah, Jamie's encouragement.

I mean, we weren't very far in when I had to stop.

51:20

I mean, maybe 3 miles.

And he just, he was like, I know it's over, you know, we've done it before.

And I mean, I don't think he really knew exactly what we were dealing with either, but he just encouraged me to get up and keep going and, and get back in the bike and.

51:39

So you got out of the bike.

Yeah.

So you're just like, Get Me Out of here.

I need to release some of this.

Yeah.

Chicago, the crowds.

I mean, there's over a million spectators there, too.

And my husband and I ran.

This is my husband's one and done marathon.

And I remember we had our names on our shirts.

51:58

And he loved.

I mean, yeah, people turn.

He's, like pumping his arm.

And I remember like, you know, ask him if he's sore.

He's like, my arm is like, feels like it's going to fall off because of the just engaging with the crowd for that long of a time.

52:14

Yeah.

And we have a lot of people that will approach us either during or after the race and say we love running next to you guys because the support's so great.

And yeah, so you know, yeah, that's it's, I think it helps a lot of people in other ways, like, right, you know.

52:32

And were you able to decorate the bike with your name and everything, even though it was a loner?

Did you put anything on?

It or remember, I think we did.

I'm sure we had something not like our bike that we own is now, but I believe our names were somewhere.

52:52

Somewhere, yeah.

Did you?

So at what point were you able to then have a bike that you owned?

We had an anonymous donor reach out and gifted the bike to us.

Yeah.

That was after, I guess, after Chicago, Yeah.

53:10

Because all the other ones we've done with your like, yeah.

How expensive are those?

That was, you know, 5000 plus.

I mean, and then you got to add like the travel stuff.

And of course, we've personalized it some on our own.

53:28

But yeah, not not cheap.

Well, I think about, you know, like a Tri bike or you know, those fancy Rd. bikes and then you think of just the the level of engineering that goes into a duo bike.

I don't know mine, they called it like a blade.

53:44

OK.

I don't know if that's the same thing.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of I've seen at the different marathons lots of different styles of these bikes.

But they try to make them as lightweight as they can.

Yeah, I remember the biggest thing was like pushing down when you turn.

54:01

Is that something that's the same for your duo bike or?

Like you have to kind of lift the front wheel.

Yes, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So you'd have to like apply a little bit of pressure down so that the wheel would lift a little.

Otherwise it's like you're dragging.

Yeah, so our bike was designed by Hoyt Racing.

54:19

OK, Yeah, I.

Don't know if you're familiar.

I am.

Their story Dick Hoyt pushed his son Rick for many different.

Did he?

Did one of them recently pass?

Am I remembering that Yes, Dick did.

I'm not sure if Rick maybe has as well.

54:36

I'm not sure.

I apologize, I'm not.

Yeah, I don't know either, so.

Just incredibly inspirational and motivating to see their story.

And you know, once you learn about do a bikes, you see there's there's not a ton of them, but they're you know, they're used and all different levels of people.

54:58

Boston, there was couple faster runners than Atlanta.

So there's people that that do do it competitively and are good at it.

Are there separate awards?

I mean I as far as like listed on the results, yes for duo bike teams I know new.

55:18

York So is it different from like the categories of like the wheelchairs?

Yeah, chairs.

Is that what?

Is it the right terminology to call that a wheelchair for like the wheels that race?

Yeah, I think OK, wheelchair racing bikes.

55:34

Then there's also like the hand cyclists.

The hand cyclists, yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

There's just so many different levels, it seems like, it almost seems like there should be like a classification of each one.

And there is, There is.

Yeah, OK.

Normally Berlin, I don't think because I.

55:51

Don't know if monumental if we I'm.

Trying to I don't know about that one either, but I know like New York, but I don't think like my son when he ran New York with us was third in his age group and he got this awesome like.

He was played from.

56:07

Tiffany's.

Group at New York.

Yeah, yeah.

So that was a pretty awesome, but I think I was first or second like with the duo bike and my age group.

I'm like, where's my?

Yeah, where's my Tiffany plate?

That is wild.

56:22

I never even knew what the age group awards would be like at a major.

That was fancy.

I mean, they sent it like in a bit.

It was a big ordeal.

It was neat.

Yeah.

What year was that that he ran with you?

We did that 121.

OK, you're testing me well.

56:38

Yeah, that's that's really cool.

And so will Luke or what's your other son's name?

Jack.

Will either of them ever push or is that like?

They want to, Yeah.

Yeah.

They, they both have expressed an interest.

Jamie, Jamie, you'll have a little bit of a hard time maybe.

56:55

Giving that up, right?

I was thinking that would be kind of tough because they're like, we want to be involved, we want to do it.

I mean, maybe you could, they could trade off.

There are rules during marathons where you can't share that pushing.

Okay, I'm not.

Sure, that would make sense if you're competing, yeah.

57:12

So we'll see, we'll check into it, but they they would like to to do it when we do hopefully run as a family sometime soon.

Yeah, that would be really cool.

Now, has Jack done a marathon?

No, he's done the Indy half, but never the full.

OK, well.

He's he'll be 18 in May.

57:30

OK, I don't know what what do you have to be 16 or 18?

I don't know to do a full.

Oh, I don't.

Think there's an age limit?

I heard a story about, and I wish I could remember the exact age of this kid that did Flying Pig in Cincinnati with his parents.

And his parents got a lot of Flack because he was like 12.

57:46

And they were like, that's not good for him.

You shouldn't.

And they're like, he wanted to do it.

He trained to do it.

Yeah.

So I don't think there might be a certain races maybe, but yeah, I don't know.

So he could certainly do it.

Definitely at 18.

Yeah.

58:03

Yeah.

Wow.

So they're both in pretty fast.

Are they going to run?

Does does Luke run it Purdue?

No, No.

Did he want to?

Yeah, I mean, he got injured a lot, unfortunately, in his last years of high school.

And that's frustrating.

Did not go the way that it was going.

58:20

And it was, it was hard.

But I think he learned a lot through that experience.

And I think on the other side of it, he's glad that he's isn't running.

I mean, he's still.

In Yeah, having a good time.

Yeah, yeah.

And Jack, I don't think we'll run either at school.

58:37

Yeah, yeah, that's a whole nother level different college experience for sure.

Yes.

But man, I'm still can't get over the third in the age.

Group yeah, that's pretty cool I'm.

Just like, wow, that's wild.

Did you, did he go to the well they sent him the thing, did he go to any awards?

58:54

No.

After the fact, yeah, I guess they that would be, that'd be cool if they did that.

Yeah, it would.

He did not.

Yeah, Wow, that's really cool.

Well, congratulations to.

You for that?

And to you, like, where's your plate?

That's right.

59:10

That is weird that they.

Yeah, I don't know.

It's OK.

Yeah, anyway, so, OK, so New York, Boston, have you done Boston more than once?

I've done Boston once, OK once.

Jamie's done it 3, three times I think.

59:26

OK, OK.

Boston was cool.

I liked Boston a lot.

I hope to get there.

Yeah, it's, it's an experience.

They probably had the best.

Well, I don't know.

We haven't talked about New York specifically other than.

59:45

The logistics there were really hard.

Just on a normal runner it took me like 5 hours to go from like my hotel to like cross the starting line.

Yeah, New York.

Yeah.

So what was?

Yeah.

What was that process like for you?

Did you do the ferry or the bus or they have a special like?

1:00:02

They had a bus, a special bus, which was cool and I believe it was sorry, they all run together, but I believe it was, I think that was Boston, no New York.

I had to get out of my.

So the way they did it in New York is the day before Jamie had to take the chair and they the running bike and they transported that for us for the next day.

1:00:25

And then we rode a bus, a separate bus for athletes with disabilities.

But the tricky part was my son Luke was running with us and they would not let more than Jamie and I on.

There just wasn't space or.

1:00:41

You know, kind of makes sense, but.

But of course we wanted to start the race with him.

Because otherwise you could be an hour apart starting and yeah.

And so that was stressful trying to so we what the way that we did it was we ended up because he was in the the corral after where we were supposed to start.

1:01:02

And so we were going to just try to linger back.

Well, that plan was ruined when one of the people that, you know, helping with the race, they're like, what are you doing?

You're supposed to be started already.

And we're like, well, we're trying to find our son.

We want to, and he's like, where is he?

1:01:19

And, and we're like somewhere in this crowd of people and he's like, go get him.

So we're on the phone with him trying to find.

Oh my God.

You know, by the grace of God, Jamie found him and brought him.

So we end up starting New York alone, the three of us.

1:01:35

It was silent.

It was just the three of us running.

We were on the lower part of the lower part.

Boo, that's.

Where I was too, when I did New York.

I like picture this magical moment.

You're on top.

It's still pretty magical being.

Alone.

I mean, how do you pee on you?

It was so like peaceful and quiet and it you could just hear their footsteps and so that was pretty cool.

1:01:57

That was really.

Cool.

But I think Jamie from the cut go, it was like, wow, this is that pill like so far, you know, it's like here we go.

Yeah.

So yeah, I don't remember what your original question was, but that was that was the experience of of starting.

I know that was the.

I was curious about the logistics there.

1:02:14

Yeah, and that New York was the hardest on Amy for sure.

So it was.

Yeah, those things were long on those bridges.

Luke really helped him get through that race.

Yeah, well, and then especially like Central Park, yes, being so hilly.

1:02:32

I had no idea the Central Park was so hilly.

About dead of men.

And then, yeah, you're, that's the end.

So it's like you've made it through all these bridges, which is what people talk about the most, which I feel like you should talk about Central Park the most.

For me, yeah, the bridges seemed like, right.

Not as hard, right?

Yeah, yeah.

1:02:48

So that was tough.

But you know, we did it and it was incredible.

Our youngest son was in the stands at the end.

That's cool that.

So that was just a really cool moment for our family.

Yeah, yeah.

Is there a special exit for people with disabilities?

1:03:04

Because I remember New York you like literally walk like 2 miles after.

You finished New York?

No.

Boston was incredible in that way.

Thank goodness, because I was not well.

That's just Get Me Out of here.

Yeah.

How, what, what were, was it still that adrenaline kind of situation in Boston or?

1:03:24

I guess so.

I don't.

I mean, I we got to the end and somebody snapped a photo.

It was raining, and I mean, Boston, yeah, kind of cold.

And.

And the crowds, they're amazing as well.

And we got that.

1:03:39

Someone took that photo and I turned to Jamie and I'm like, hey, I'm sorry.

I know you're the one that just ran a marathon, but I'm not OK.

I couldn't feel my legs and it was really scary.

That was terrifying.

So they had a so he immediately told someone they had a special tent for athletes with disability like medical.

1:03:59

And they were, they were, they were incredible.

I mean, I was Jamie was taken care of.

He was, he was OK, but you know.

Just ran a marathon.

And he wasn't able to help me in the way that, you know, like they had to lift me out.

And I was in there for a long time and it was pretty scary.

1:04:18

But, you know, there was this one guy and he was kind of, you know, an Angel.

Like he was just so helpful to me and got me through it.

And I think, I don't know, that one was just really tough on my body.

I it was a long time recovering from that one.

1:04:34

I'm not sure if it was a mix.

Yeah, when you left the tent, could you feel your legs again?

I could feel them.

They helped.

They had to help me get into the bike.

And then when we got back to the hotel, I thought maybe a hot shower would help my muscles, so I tried to walk and fell.

1:04:52

So it, you know, it was just, it took a while, I guess.

I don't know.

I'm not sure.

The adrenaline, I'm sure it was a factor.

Yeah, every race I have felt that.

What have you now that you've experienced several?

Are there things that you do differently to like try to help release some of it, or do you just kind of just know how to deal with it better?

1:05:15

Yeah, I think now that I recognize what it is, it's easier to not get as panicked about that terrible feeling.

Yeah, I just try to stay calm.

I try to just focus on helping him, which is my main goal when we're running that race, you know, encouraging or getting whatever he needs, like nutrition wise, being the spotter to make sure we don't hit someone or, you know, the more end of the race he gets, some more delirious he gets.

1:05:46

And so it becomes really, you know, critical that I'm focused on that through.

His eyes?

Yeah.

Do you?

So how do you have his nutrition and stuff situated?

Are there like pockets?

I have stuff like everyone for New York.

1:06:01

It was funny because I was doing Luke's and his.

Oh, just so you're just like you.

Wouldn't believe the amount I can stuff down into the.

Yeah.

He has a water belt, but sometimes he'll take.

So Jamie mostly does.

I, I do refill his waters and stuff like that, but then I'll give him whatever, you know, we kind of have it down like where I'll ask him, you ready for this or that?

1:06:24

Yeah.

Does he do just like goo type stuff or does he do like salt tablets or like anything else all?

Of it, yeah.

OK, so that keeps you, you know, yeah, that's busy working and that's not a small feat, I'm sure for you to use your muscles and you're trying to be in the chair and not fall out and get.

1:06:42

Yeah, I think a lot of people see me and assume that I'm just he's a leisurely right.

And you know, compared to running a marathon, I'm sure that it is.

But when we were in Berlin, I think it's New Balance.

1:06:58

There's big slogan is run your way.

And so we're when we were in Berlin at all the like public transportation or whatever, they these giant posters of all different types of athletes and a lot of athletes with disabilities.

1:07:15

And it was just such an inclusive like AD campaign.

That's really cool, good for them.

And so I Berlin, obviously it was our fifth marathon, but I think it finally clicked like, and but Jamie, it always said like you're running your way And I but I always felt like kind of like when I would get the medal or like the jacket was a big hump that he had to convince me that I was deserving.

1:07:41

Yes, yes.

I didn't get a jacket in New York.

His big thing.

He likes to get the jackets.

I like the jackets too.

Although I I don't have them from all mine because I tried to and now I wish I would have them from all mine but that's OK.

I don't remember what we were talking.

1:07:56

About like how you didn't feel like you deserved having a metal, like the things that.

That was hard for me.

And because I think a lot of people would judge me for taking that metal or the wearing the jacket.

A lot of times after a race, you know, everybody wears the jackets and I'll be in my wheelchair and they're like, Oh my gosh, did you get hurt during the mirror?

1:08:16

And I'm like, oh man, oh boy, that.

'D be fun, yeah.

This is a long story.

Broke both my legs, yeah.

Yeah, so whatever.

But so, yeah.

And so when I saw that run your way, I'm like, I don't know, something clicked and I was like, I am running like the only way that I can run.

1:08:35

I mean, I don't know that we ever addressed that, but I've never run in my life.

Like I've never been able to do that.

Right.

Yeah, we hadn't talked about.

That, yeah.

Exception of underwater.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I don't even know what that feels like, but in my own way I do.

Yeah.

1:08:50

And you know, I train.

And when I'm not training with Jamie and the bike, I'm like you just mentioned, I do my own training, you know, to stay as healthy and as fit as I possibly can.

It's not easy with muscular dystrophy.

1:09:08

There's a fine line of you can't exercise.

First of all, you don't have the strength, but if you cross a line, you can damage your muscles.

And, and so that you mentioned the water, I do water workouts much easier on my body.

1:09:23

I'm much more capable in the water.

I can do things I could never do on land in the water.

So.

Where are you able to do that?

I'm at my house, so we installed.

I had been in physical therapy my whole life, in and out.

1:09:39

And So what happens with insurance is you go to physical therapy and you're not making progress on the timeline that they want and you just get released.

Also, with muscular dystrophy you don't really make a ton of.

There's yeah, there's no, You're probably just staying.

1:09:55

You're just trying to just stay even.

Trying to yes and so I I got it just got exhausting it's expensive and so Jamie had the idea like why don't we just bring this to our house and like spend our funds that way?

1:10:11

You know, I mean, I knew enough from going to physical therapy all those years of how to help myself.

Right.

Hey, you have those exercises memorized?

Yeah.

And so we put in ours is an endless pool brand, but there's different brands of the little pools where you swim with the current.

1:10:30

Somewhere along the way we found out an underwater treadmill was a possibility and so we put had that And so we have like, well a little addition for this so I can use it all year.

Round.

That's amazing.

Yeah, it.

Is I assumed you had to go?

1:10:46

Yeah.

Like go to a hospital or somewhere?

Yeah, I did to do it for many years.

But so, yeah, this is obviously a gift, you know, to be able to do that and for me not to have to get out of the house in the winter and try to get somewhere safely.

And it's been a lifesaver.

1:11:02

And so now I can run too in the water, so.

That's so wild.

When the first time you did, you remember the feeling the first time you did that?

Yep, so my and it was my younger son that taught me how to run.

1:11:18

I didn't know like I got in there and he he was in there with me and he's I'm like, I don't know what to do.

I don't know what this.

Motion is.

Like, because when I walk, I'm, I have this completely different like pattern because I'm trying to just stay up.

1:11:34

Yeah.

So I have a, you know, very specific gate.

But in the water it was, it was different.

I could be more, you know, like an average person walking.

And so he, I've got some videos out there somewhere, that very special moment of him like teaching me.

1:11:55

That's so cool.

Right alongside of me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow.

So every do you do if you do physical therapy type of things every day?

Yeah, somewhat.

I, I, there's not a day that I can't go really without stretching or the workouts.

1:12:15

I, I keep to three or four days a week just because I, my body just does not do well if I push it like it ends up having the opposite effect and I'm down for a week.

So I have to be really careful with that, but I always am doing.

Something.

1:12:31

Core strength or, you know, that's my goal, to keep walking as long as I can.

Yeah.

And I don't think I could do that without the exercise.

So do you take any sort of like supplements or like medication?

1:12:47

Are there any treatment type things that you are treated with?

I don't.

I mean, there's a few supplements, but they don't, I don't know that they're that effective, but I do do stem cell therapy, OK, which I started four years ago or so.

1:13:05

What?

Does that entail?

Well, so that they're from my own body.

It's called stromal vascular fraction stem cell therapy.

OK, there's still a lot of controversy surrounding that.

It's not proven.

It was never presented to me as a cure because it's, it's not at this point anyway.

1:13:29

But the, the way that it came about was I was at a doctor, this doctor getting another procedure done and he, he needed to know my medical history.

And so I said, why I have muscular dystrophy and he's like, oh, he's like, I'm currently treating a young man with limb girdle muscular dystrophy with stem cells.

1:13:50

And I was like, OK, like, that sounds weird.

Like the whole thing was just like, what?

What's happening?

He's like, he's like, I have a.

It wasn't like a pushy thing.

He's like, there's this book.

You can read about it and I went on my way.

He gave he ended up giving me a copy of the book so I could learn about it.

1:14:09

Well, I was obsessed like I got home and like reading.

I had always thought stem cells like for whatever reason where I didn't know I guess that they took them from your own body and and could use them.

So are.

Stem cells everywhere in your body, are they like in your brain they extracted.

1:14:27

Fat and then they extracted the stem cells from that and now I have them bank OK and I get them like every four months it's expensive it's not paid for by insurance is.

It painful.

No, I mean the when they had to do the extraction, it was because that's basically like a tiny liposuction.

1:14:48

I was awake.

It was a very tiny amount that they needed.

Unfortunately, I'm like you can like you.

Can take as much as you.

Have I was like I have other spots if yeah.

You need more.

But yeah, so, you know, there's a lot of people that would say that's never going to work or but for me, it's all I have.

1:15:07

Like it was the one thing I've ever been offered.

I did some other type of treatment a few years before that that had zero effect.

And but that was before they knew I had muscular dyrophy.

No, but genetic medicine is, you know, on the rise and a lot of probably in my lifetime, I won't see a treatment.

1:15:30

A cool thing is my older son is in biomedical engineering at Purdue and he's become quite interested in researching.

And, you know, that's been very touching to see that him so interested in in that.

1:15:45

And I'm like, you know, it might not help me, but it could help a lot of other people.

Yeah, yeah.

So.

And so you said you were 50 now.

I am.

I can't.

Believe you're 50. 50.

You do not look fifty well.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

1:16:02

So I was reading up a little bit on muscular dystrophy, and there are certain types that are deemed fatal, but as you've described as a progressive disease, I mean basically you just fight it as hard as you can for as long as you can.

Or is there like a specific life expectancy for somebody with the type of muscular dystrophy that you have?

1:16:25

I don't know about my type.

I don't think so.

Certainly not as quickly progressive as some of the other more serious forms.

You know, like I said, there's many types, many different.

I don't know everything about every type.

1:16:43

I don't think my life like I don't, I don't think that's a problem for me.

It's just my mobility is predicted to become less and less as I mean, as we age anyway, that's hard enough on our bodies and I've noticed a big difference and and just I mean, it's a constant fight.

1:17:03

Like that's the thing that a lot of people maybe don't grasp.

When you don't live with a disability, like it never, you don't ever get a break from it.

It's like I have a hard time sitting up in bed.

Like it's the second that I, my eyes open, it starts And it's just like I had a doctor once say, you know, you're running like a marathon every day.

1:17:24

It's like you have to get up and you have to decide like your only choice is to not get up.

Otherwise you're in it.

And it's, it's hard.

It's really hard.

Like physically, mentally, it's a lot of mental that goes into living with a disability.

1:17:42

That's why I would say it's just as hard mentally as it is physically.

Yeah, I would say, yeah.

I mean, especially you think about just marathon running for people listening in general, it's we talk a lot about the mental side and it is such a, it can be a very dark place.

1:17:59

Do you go to therapy or anything like that to help with that side of things?

I have for sure, yeah.

I dealt with a lot of depression in my especially in like my college years.

I just got like that search was just so like crushing, like I don't know any other word for it was just it was depressing.

1:18:22

And it was just I was thinking I'm going to live my whole life and not know what's causing all these struggles and why I've had to have all these surgeries and why this is my life.

And that that was hard for me thinking that I die and not know.

1:18:37

But yeah.

It's I've been very dark at times since being diagnosed.

That's helped.

Not to say I don't have bad days, but I've really started practicing in my life, just being grateful for really small things and that has changed my life.

1:18:57

I don't focus as much on like what I can't do.

I'm not saying I'm that I focus on what I can do.

Of course I do that.

But it's more of each day like recognizing really small things that I can do and like grateful that I can do them because they're not promised.

1:19:18

They're not promised to anybody.

But especially when you live with progressive disease, like I don't know what tomorrow.

I mean, I've been told one day my legs just aren't going to work.

And some days I've like that feels, that's exactly what it feels like, like they're just going to collapse.

1:19:37

Yeah.

So it could get dark.

I probably should be in therapy, but like I said, the writing that that really is therapeutic for me.

And making connections with others that are like you is so powerful because they can understand you on a level that, I mean, everyone has those things in their life where they need somebody to be able to relate in a way that that some people can't.

1:20:03

We all have our things.

Mine, you can just see.

Yeah.

Well, I think like I'm on medication, on antidepressants and I have been since I was pregnant with my second daughter.

And yeah, I just think about it's like I'm on, I'm on drugs.

Like my life's not even that bad.

1:20:21

Well, but.

But everybody, everybody has their stuff.

It's all different levels of but it is always nice to know that you're not alone and having you know the partner that you do and your sons that you do.

Yeah, and my family, you know, my parents, my sister, my cousin I'm very close with.

1:20:41

There's a friend that I have a lot of people in my life that support me.

And that is everything.

I mean, I, I think without my kids, I don't know that I would be as motivated to keep going.

I just don't.

I, I maybe, you know, I could see how it's just easy to kind of stop like, because it is so hard.

1:21:02

Yeah, just walking to my kitchen is really hard.

Yeah, walking down, like walking to here, yeah.

I, I, you know, like I asked you, I needed to know yesterday what, what's the distance?

But because I have a wheelchair, but I, we don't yet have a way for me to like get that in and out of my car by myself.

1:21:22

That's probably a next step.

We have looked into it, but.

Well, I was wondering about that because I thought, well, I was like, I don't know, does Jamie drive?

Like, does he drive you?

Can you drive?

And then I thought when I was when I wrote the e-mail, I was like, OK, well, I'm pretty sure both the entrances are accessible via wheelchair.

1:21:39

And I was like, are they like, I would assume that when they built this, they would have thought of that.

But then I was like, I don't know.

Yeah.

I mean, just all the things you have to think about.

And then when you're, you know, asked about the distance, I was like, oh, OK, walking.

I just, I wasn't, I didn't, I didn't know.

1:21:55

I have to plan out every aspect of my everything every day and it's different each day depending on like where I'm at with strength wise or what I have to do that day or that gets exhausting.

Plan all that planning.

1:22:12

I'm not a spontaneous person and at that gives me a lot of anxiety when when somebody mentions something outside of my daily plan, because that means I have to recalculate everything.

Yeah.

And I have to make sure that, you know, I've fallen in public without and and people don't stop like they're oh God, they don't want to be involved.

1:22:34

You know, they're, they're scared or you know.

Which is hard because people are afraid of getting sued.

Like, I don't want to.

Yeah, hurt you, right?

That sucks that we live in a culture that's like things like that.

It's like you're everyone's a human.

Like you should help a human that needs help.

1:22:50

I've been like on the floor at a restaurant for 10 minutes before someone finally helped me up.

Like people with the manager came over.

I had fallen like going out a door.

And so I was kind of had fallen.

My body is propping the door open and Pete and it was a restaurant bar and so I think people assume that I've been heavily drinking and I hadn't had anything to drink by the door swung in a way I wasn't expecting and I fell lost my balance and the manager came and asked me to get out of the doorway because I was letting the air conditioning out.

1:23:28

And I'm like, I, I'm trying to call my husband like I had, I had made the poor decision to walk out of this restaurant by myself and it was crowded and very crowded.

And it was, it felt like a lifetime before it was like this.

1:23:45

I don't know.

I just felt like it was a, a very spiritual thing.

This guy finally came and like knelt down.

He's like, I'm a physical therapist.

I know how to help you up and that was a beautiful moment.

But it's moments like those that like I, that's why I heavily plan like each like outing and stuff.

1:24:07

Yeah.

What are some of the things that you want people to know about those little things like the like that people might not think about the fact that you have to consider things like that, like if you plan like can I even go to this place first of all, like.

1:24:24

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times people will just nonchalantly mention these out like concert or just an evening out.

And it's it's hard for me because I know they don't understand like what instantly starts running through my mind.

1:24:43

Like I deal with a lot of anxiety because of that kind of thing.

I'm not the best at asking for help.

I'm trying to learning I've that I've greatly value my independence.

I'm scared of losing it.

And so I feel like if I'm going to start asking for help that it's going to be like a downward spiral for me.

1:25:05

I know that's not true, but so I guess I just would want people to know.

I don't know.

I think a lot of people that think with being disabled as anyone could become disabled.

Like it's the one like minority group that you can join at any time.

You know, that's what makes it unique from being one of those large minority groups.

1:25:26

And I think that I don't know, I don't want, I don't want people to feel sorry for me like I would I that's I hate that when like people are like, oh, poor you like so sorry, no, not poor me.

I don't want that.

Just like I think it's a respect thing, like like I would do to anyone else going through a certain like, I don't know, you think for example, like if somebody breaks their leg or whatever, like people are like, Oh my gosh, like, you know, and they're, it's this big thing.

1:25:58

But when you live with a disability, it's like you, you feel invisible a lot of the time or like, you know, a real eye opener is going to a venue or wherever and there's not an accommodation.

You know, a lot of times people with disabilities are like the, it's not the disability that's the problem.

1:26:17

It's like the everybody, not really everybody.

I mean, but no, not blaming everybody else, but like the adaptability, like, you know, those that those barriers hinder us.

It's not a it's not a disabled people against non disabled people, But I think a lot of times people feel that way.

1:26:40

But that's just my perception of it.

It's a very you often just very feel misunderstood, not valued.

Like a weird thing when you have a disability is people just assume that intellectually you're not as capable.

1:26:56

Which is so.

And that's madding.

And I know a lot of very successful, intelligent people with disabilities, just like people without disabilities.

I mean, But yeah, I think this society often, like the barriers in society limit us from living to our full capacity at times.

1:27:19

So I don't know.

I think just I don't want to sit here and say, oh, so I know what I recognize is that everyone has hard things in their lives.

I think it's just respecting that and one another and trying to learn about like those things and each other so that we can meet people where they're at and help them however that we can.

1:27:42

Well, now I'm thinking like, OK, when you go to leave here, right?

It's like, OK, now I've given you something to carry.

You know, I've been thinking about leaving here the whole time.

Well, I mean, it's in the back of my mind.

Because you're like, OK, I had to walk down the whole like long hallway and then and here now I'm thinking, OK, well, like, how can I make that somewhat easier without being like, oh, do you you know, I don't.

1:28:08

Yeah.

It's hard for people to because I want to be nothing but respectful.

I think that's one of the things I, it's, I don't wish that everybody in their life like had a family member or friend, like with a disability, but it's, it's one of those things where everyone needs to work in a retailer to restaurants.

1:28:24

They just understand.

It's unless you're close to it, you don't understand.

And then people are afraid of what they don't understand.

Or anything like grief, I think that's a big thing.

Like people don't know how to approach someone that's grieving.

1:28:40

I often find that people don't know how to approach me.

And it's, it's understandable because you know, there's, there's all types of, I mean, not everyone that has a disability wants to be offered help.

Or I mean, we're individuals.

1:28:56

I think like once you've met one person with a disability, you've met one person with a disability, we're not like all the same person.

And I think that's can be the perception.

Me personally, I don't mind if someone offers I to help like that doesn't bother me.

1:29:15

But I've also not everyone that's disabled has lived their entire life disabled like I have, that might be newer to someone.

And so I've had a lifetime to get used to people offering to help or overstepping or and it's, you know, I've had to learn to speak up for myself.

1:29:36

I often I get like judged if I'm not in my wheelchair and someone just sees me sitting.

Or a huge thing is when I park in an accessible parking space and I get so many mean stares.

I've been yelled at so many times before I ever exit my car.

1:29:55

What?

Yes, screamed at because they're looking at me sitting in my car and they can't tell that I'm.

I mean, right, I have my tag clearly displayed.

Yeah, but you know, once I get out and start walking, it's obvious.

1:30:10

But.

And what do you have you in that situation like opened your door and.

I don't usually engage.

That's probably the best.

Because I'm afraid, right?

I don't have a lot of defense.

Yeah.

So if somebody's going to be.

I have no problem, you know, giving a look, But as far as engaging verbally, I try to.

1:30:31

I just, it's for the best, but that affects me for sure.

Yeah.

It's hurtful.

So I guess you know, don't judge a book by its cover.

Yeah, right.

You never know what someone's dealing.

With just all yeah, in every situation, I have no idea what somebody's going through.

1:30:48

It's always a good reminder.

Right.

Yeah, well, I have to ask the end of the podcast questions.

And then I'm like, now I'm just, you know, for me.

And it's.

I don't, I don't.

Yeah.

I just probably said something dumb at some point.

It's like one of those things where you're just like, I hope.

1:31:05

I'm, I'm not like that.

I really am not like I, I don't, I understand when people don't understand me.

And so you doing something like this and opening a space for me to share that helps.

So people that haven't ever encountered someone with a disability, like obviously it's just my perspective and that's just one, but it gives a glimpse of, you know, I think I have 50 years of experience.

1:31:33

I can speak a little bit on what it's like to be disabled.

But you know, thank you to you for like bringing this unique story about running into the space and showing how everybody can run their own way and that just, you know, you're capable of a lot more than not you.

1:31:52

I'm talking about people, including myself, of a lot more than we sometimes allow ourselves to believe like.

Probably true for me too.

Yeah, 'cause I, you know, everyone has their self doubts.

So you've not said anything dumb.

And I wouldn't I, I just, I appreciate when like, you know, the column in the newspaper that I have like them saying, OK, sure, we'll accept you as a writer for disabilities.

1:32:17

And again, it's just my story.

But now there's a story in the newspaper from someone that has the perspective of living with a disability.

Yeah.

Well, run your own way is a good segue to the first question that I ask everyone, which is what's your kind of a mantra or like a song that like gets you going?

1:32:41

Do you guys listen to music?

Do you have a we?

Don't we don't listen to music.

Jamie doesn't listen to music when he runs solo.

And so we just I, we were talking about this last night and I said, you know, we don't have a song and we don't really have a phrase, but what we have a emotion, I guess.

1:32:57

So each time we do a big hill or something, I just reach back and we just tap, yeah, tap our fist.

So I guess that's our our thing.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Well, now I'm like every.

1:33:12

What's your favorite running so well?

I mean, you know you, you running your own way.

Yeah.

That's that's cool.

The fist pump that's gonna be, it's pretty.

Meaningful like silent, you know?

Just like we know encouragement don't even have to say a word like.

We just.

Understand.

Yeah.

1:33:28

And then next finish line or milestone, when was your milestone birthday 50?

June.

And you celebrated 25 years.

What cup?

When was October?

Yeah, what a year.

1:33:44

Yeah.

So what?

What's the next milestone or finish line?

I mean, of course we want we always had in our sights to do London and Tokyo to round out, you know what, what what was the.

They'd have to have a lot of those medals still so just.

1:34:01

So the, you know, we're not getting any younger is what I always tell Jamie and especially him that's that's running.

But he's up for the challenge.

I think Next up, what we would love to do the family thing, marathon.

Not sure about Chicago or what kind of space that we need to get on it.

1:34:18

And if it's not too late to look into that, it might be something like that.

I think will be our next before we do another huge.

Jamie's very into wanting to do these anniversaries like 50th school.

I think Tokyo's like 27 maybe.

1:34:35

OK, 50th, I'm not sure.

Don't quote me on that, but yeah.

Are there entrance for people with disabilities for some of the races so that you could say I want to do it and you could do it versus being like me who I'd have to enter the lottery a bunch of times.

Or yeah, it's different.

1:34:51

There are only a certain very few.

Like for Berlin, I think there were only like, I don't know, 5 duo spots or I mean New York there there were more.

OK, maybe 10, not many.

So do you have to?

So what is it like you get on a waiting list then if they know you want to do it?

1:35:09

Well, yeah, we go, we kind of go through MDA team momentum and they'll they kind of can help us figure that out.

But yeah, you, you can't always get in.

Yeah, because there are so few spots for that, Yeah.

And then Indy, Indy Monumental, what year did you guys do that?

1:35:29

That was 22, 22 I think.

I should have remembered that because that was the first year I did the full.

Yeah, I think it was 22 because New York was 21.

And Indy was cool because we did it with, it was like we called it our hometown marathon.

1:35:45

And we ended up like getting a team of a huge team of like 50 people or so.

And it was like our kids, their friends, some of their parents, like families.

Yeah.

So that was really awesome.

Is there anything that Indy could do better outside of the freaking potholes?

1:36:04

Because now I'm thinking about that for you and I'm like, OK.

I think our experience in Indy was pretty good.

It was nothing like.

Is the logistics are.

Yeah, they didn't have the, you know, that we knew of for the athletes with disabilities or I think we kind of just got LED in to the near the front, which that just works best for many, many reasons safety wise and my and our our opinion.

1:36:31

Yeah.

But I our our experience was pretty good.

But I mean, Jamie ran his fastest time.

Wow.

Solo or with the bikes like 311 I think.

Jeez.

So that was a good day for for us.

Yeah, that's amazing.

1:36:48

Yeah, that's amazing.

Well, I'll be cheering for you guys.

Thank you.

Yeah, I thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

Well, thank you for reaching out and sending me that.

You know, however, you got to promote those mugs you make because they're the best, all the best mugs ever.

1:37:04

Oh, thank you.

Yeah, I drink.

The ones I drink out of are all ones that I've messed up in some way.

So my like cabinet's full just.

I I appreciate it.

Yeah, of course.

You know, that was the start of, you know, all of this.

So you take the chances, reach out to people even if you're afraid of what you know.

1:37:21

That's how beautiful things start.

Yeah, this wasn't so scary.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, thank you.

And thank you to everybody who's listened and happy running.

If you enjoyed this Sandy Boy Productions podcast, be sure to share, rate and review, and I'll see you next week.

1:37:37

Merry Christmas.

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