Finish Lines & Milestones: Episode 89

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This is a Sandy Boy Productions podcast.

Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones, a podcast that celebrates the everyday runner.

I'm your host, Ali Brettnacher.

Whether you're a season marathoner, half marathoner, ultra marathoner, prefer shorter distances or just getting started, if you run, you are a runner.

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And every runner has a story.

Join me each week as I share these stories and we cross finish lines and celebrate milestones together.

This podcast is brought to you by Athlete Bouquets.

Celebrate the finish lines and milestones of the people you love by visiting athletebouquets.com.

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Use code podcast for 10% off your order.

Hello and happy New year.

Welcome to episode 89.

This is Allie and welcome to the first episode of the year.

We're kicking it off with an incredible episode that I've been wanting to record for a long time, and I'll tell you more about that in a second.

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But I am currently in Florida, ringing in the new year with some warmth and sunshine before heading back.

Too cold, wintry Indiana.

So I'm soaking up the warm runs while I can.

If we aren't already Internet friends, you can follow me on Instagram.

1:17

Ally ALLYT as in tango.

Brett.

Brett under Score runs, I did post an obligatory recap there where I kind of just went through briefly the races I did throughout the year and they were more than I remember and I just loved kind of thinking that through.

1:37

It was a big year for me when it came to running.

The highlight was probably my PR in the marathon, as you may have heard about if you listened last week, where I tried my best in the throes of holiday chaos to do a little recap.

So now that I'm down here in Florida somewhat relaxing, I did go through and do a better job of recapping and looking to 2025.

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I'm not a huge goals person necessarily, but I'm just chasing my best as I will continue to do.

And I'm looking forward to seeing what all happens this year.

So thanks for coming along for the ride and thank you for your support.

If you would be so kind, if you listen to this podcast and you enjoy it, please share Rate review doesn't take a super long time and it means a lot.

2:27

So I appreciate that and I also wanted to, before I forget, congratulate my dad for setting a goal of running 400 miles last year and he, on the last day of the year, ended up there at 400.7 miles for the year.

2:46

My daughter Sydney, who is 7, helped him on his final run.

She rode a bike next to him and she did that in the afternoon where she already had done a bike run with me in the morning.

So this kid on the last day of the year rode 9 miles and let me tell you, did not make it up to midnight.

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So anyway, again, happy new year, excited you're here.

Let's do this.

This episode is with Matt Eversall.

He is the founder of PBT, which is personal best training with Coach Matt Eversall and he has had his coaching business for over 30 years now.

3:23

He is a staple in the Indianapolis community, but also has runners across the country of various talents and abilities as you will hear him talk about.

But I've had a number of his athletes on this podcast and I know there will be more certainly this year and in the future.

3:41

But I really enjoyed getting a chance to to get to know Matt.

I've certainly seen him around, but really didn't know him until getting a chance to interview him for this episode.

So we talk all about kind of how PPT came to be.

He gives some great advice during this episode and we talk more about him too.

3:58

You know, what are his PRS?

Will he ever race again?

What's it like being a grandpa?

So I hope you love getting a chance to know Matt Ebersol.

Enjoy.

Welcome to the Matt Ebersol.

Thank you you.

Didn't see that coming.

4:15

No, I did not.

I have had, I should have counted the number of your athletes that I've had as guests on this podcast.

It's a lot.

Good and a number of my athletes you can also get a pretty wide range of experiences and people and running ability.

4:33

Very true.

How many athletes approximately on your roster at any given time?

At any given time, including the running club and some other things that I do, usually about 150.

Wow, that's so cool.

Yeah, it's enough to keep me busy.

Well, I must say that I have been aware of PBT for the longest time because of those jerseys, the amazing singlets that your athletes wear when they race.

5:00

And Johanna actually had the question, like, why the colors?

It would.

That was pretty interesting because I had done things under different banners before, and in 2013 we started these rather than having a logo on in somebody else's jersey.

5:16

Yeah, it was ours.

And at the time, Saucony had these incredible singlets and there's a couple of different colors and the blue and the orange just looked really good.

So we got those and started with that and now it's so recognizable.

5:34

We went through three or four different versions of the Saucony singlet until they just dropped that orange and we had to do something else.

So then we went two times you for a while they got out of the team business.

So now we're New Balance and I think those look.

Great.

They're.

Awesome.

And then the women's, those look fantastic too.

5:52

And I've gone, it seems very cliche, but pink with because I love that bright pink.

It's amazing.

And I've incorporated in a lot of the men's stuff too, at least as an accent color, because I just like the way that it looks.

Yeah, well, now, Saucony, the elites have the pink shoes too, for men, because I've seen those on guys.

6:12

So yeah, real men wear pink, as they say.

And even back in the 80s when I was getting started and running, you'd see that, but you had to be fast to wear pink.

Yeah, that's funny.

But so it it's good to see that come around and and there's a number of Nike shoes that have a particular pink in it that I really like.

6:34

So yeah, it's fun.

Well, it is so recognizable.

And I remember thinking like just seeing it, seeing the jerseys and you're like, whoa, like those people are those people are special.

They are special.

And now I've come to learn like anybody can wear that jersey, which is so cool because for the longest time I just thought, oh, they must be professionals, you know, and a lot of your athletes are very fast and successful.

6:59

But like you said, you I mean you work with all kinds of different.

The name personal best training sounds very generic, and certainly it is.

And I've had to, when I've done some marketing, coach Matt Ebersole's personal best training because there's a million personal best training out there.

7:15

But the reason I use that is I truly mean it.

Do your best.

And if you were blessed with gifts that don't include running speed, that's fine.

You're giving your heart and your soul to this, and you're making the most of it, and it's important to you.

7:31

I want you on my team.

If you picked your parents a little better and you have the right mix of Physiology to run fast, that's cool too.

So it's interesting to apply the same principles and we have a group workout and we have at a glance everyone's doing the same workout, but somebody's doing the Six Mile version of that workout.

7:54

Somebody else is doing the 12 mile version of that workout and they did the Six Mile easy run that morning.

And so there's a lot of time, there's a lot of overlap between that range of ability because the principles don't change the the details certainly do.

Yeah, I like how you said if you picked your, if you picked your parents better, that's perfect way to.

8:15

Play.

I picked my parents really well to be a great coach.

The running ability, there's maybe a little bit of that, but not a ton.

Well, that's the perfect segue, Matt.

Your parents, your upbringing.

I want to know about you and how you ended up on this journey to becoming a coach, how you ended up in the running world.

8:36

But yeah, are you from Indiana?

I am from Fort Wayne, OK, and my grandfather was, both grandparents live very close to us both.

That's the grandparents.

But my grandfather was special.

I'm named after him.

And he was the first runner I knew.

8:53

And he would take my brother and I to the park that was a half mile away from his house, and he'd put us on the swing.

This is back when you could do such things, right?

And my brother and I would play on the swing and play on the playground and he'd run loops around the playground.

And so I never saw that thought, Gee, I want to do that.

9:12

But it just normalized it in my mind of, yeah, people do this.

And this is at that point, probably early 70s.

So now looking back, I know that that's kind of the running boom time and shorter one, the the golden 72 and kind of kicked off that first running boom.

9:30

But then just being in his house and seen runners rolled in the 70s, it was kind of like I'd look at that, he'd get Popular Mechanics GQ.

My grandfather was something he was actually a engineer for Magnavox, never went to college.

9:47

He taught himself all of that and became valuable enough through a couple of companies, ended up Magnavox, and that's how my family ended up in Fort Wayne, at least my mom's side.

Does Magnavox, do they still exist?

I don't know that they do.

I remember that name, but what did they do?

Or they is it?

10:03

TV well, he, he was in, they did make TV's OK, which always got the hand me down when he got the award TV from work.

Oh yeah, you got the hand me.

Down perfect.

But he was in on the development of stereo speakers, turntables, things that at the time were kind of a big deal, right?

10:21

My mom remembers as a as a small girl, engineering students coming over from the local college to check out these speakers, and my grandfather would make it sound like a train was coming through the room and it was just blowing people's minds.

That's so cool.

So running was kind of normalized.

10:38

I was going to be a football player, of course, and my mom broke it to me going into middle school that I don't know how much I weighed, but it wasn't triple digits yet that I was not playing football.

I was heartbroken because I played football in the backyard with the neighbors all the time, and I thought that was going to be the thing.

10:59

Before my 8th grade year, my dad had started running and he had run a marathon or two, TV 33 Hooks, Fort Wayne Marathon, and he was going to run the Blueberry Stomp in Plymouth IN 15K, which I don't really know how far 15K was, but it seemed like a long way.

11:16

And somehow we stumbled on that.

I was going to run it too.

So we kind of did this couple of training runs.

My dad set out this 15K course and we took off.

We're going to do our final, final run before the race.

And I thought he was behind me the whole way.

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I get to about a mile ago, I turn around and he's nowhere to be seen.

So it's like, oh, OK, I, I can do this.

I think my brother was with, with me on his bike.

And so that ended went really well.

Went to Blueberry Stomp September 1st 1980, my first race and that went pretty well other than the fact that they it's in conjunction with the parade in in Plymouth and there's this huge canopy of balloons.

12:02

I thought it was finish line.

So I take off Sprint for all I'm worth.

It was pretty rough day anyway but and realized no, that's just the parade.

Finish line is still down there.

Shoot.

Nonetheless, race number one was in the books and then I ran cross country my 8th grade year and and I've been running ever since.

12:20

That's amazing.

Starting with 15K, yeah, that's right under what?

Right under 10 miles, Yeah.

That's not like a normal distance too.

That's not super common in terms of a race.

That's 15K.

So it's kind of funny that that was.

Yeah, At the time it was a little bit more common than it is now.

12:38

But even now, if I think about my 15 KPRI, have to think about that one a little bit harder.

And what does that mean?

10 mile?

Give me 10 miles.

Yeah, I can do that math in my head.

I can't.

That's too much.

That's too much to think about.

Because then I was like, oh, then what's 1/2 in K?

12:54

Because what?

A marathon's 42 two.

OK, So 21 one for 1/2.

OK, Yeah.

So that kind of lead, 8th grade cross country went reasonably well.

We had a pretty good team for our area.

What high school or you had?

Sorry, 8th.

13:09

Grade.

The middle school was Village Woods Elementary, OK, which was between our house and my grandfather's house.

OK.

And so that went well.

I was encouraged enough to keep going and went to high school and we had a team of now I think it I think it was we had 23 people on the team my freshman year and we had we had a pretty good team.

13:30

You want to guess what number I was?

Go ahead, you.

Can say out of 23, well, I'm going to imagine that it's going to be a surprise to me.

So I don't know, middle of the pack.

Were you just middle?

#23. 23.

The talent was now showing itself, but fortunately there was a guy who was the worst on the team his freshman year, and he was now varsity and running pretty well.

13:54

And he saw me as the sad, pathetic case he once was.

Took me under his wing.

And Brett Hess has been a lifelong friend.

And that winter we got out and it was cold, dark and ugly, but we'd go run.

And I started to see that correlation between what I thought was work and what was really work and what really work would do if you did enough of it.

14:16

So I got better.

The talent ceiling was still there, but I got better.

So by the end of high school, I was OK and good enough that where Brett went to college, sent me a letter and said, hey, you want to run for us.

And I, I was done in high school.

14:31

That was going to be the end of my running career.

And I'm well, OK.

So I ran a little bit in high school.

I got married after my sophomore year.

So that was the end of running in college.

OK, sophomore year college.

Yeah, wow.

She was a couple of years ahead of me and she had a job so I followed the money.

14:53

What's your wife's name?

Rebecca.

Different wife, Different wife now, OK.

Yes, that's another podcast.

That's another.

Story interesting, at least to me, but so at some point I stopped.

I went to a year at IUPUI.

15:08

OK.

My former wife and I referred to that as the wasted year, but it was anything but because I was studying history, political science and and secondary education.

Wanted to be a history teacher in high school, primarily to coach cross country track.

15:24

But there you go.

Yeah, it was a means to the end.

And I realized when you're sitting in Russian history class and you're not paying attention, but you're looking at track and field news, maybe this isn't direct the direction you need to go.

15:40

And I was working at finish line at the time.

Things were going well.

We had sales contest and I've won most of those.

So they offered me a job in Atlanta.

And I love the idea of Atlanta because Brett Hess and I had taken Greyhound and gone down and run Peachtree Rd. race.

15:56

Oh man.

And that was just the greatest experience for me ever.

That was the end.

I'll be all and to this day, my soft spot in running are the classic American Rd. races like Peachtree.

I love them.

And so it was an opportunity to go to Atlanta.

16:15

I called my wife at the time and said, hey, you want to move to Atlanta?

Sure.

Why are we going to Atlanta?

Why?

And it was to manage of a finish line store.

But when I was down there, I got connected with Roy Benson, who had a coaching business and he was the coach at at University of Florida for a while.

16:36

He was involved with the Olympic team in 72.

So he had this great resume.

Somebody told me I got to meet this guy.

So I go out and meet him and it's at a track in Dunwoody, GA, just north of Atlanta, just north of 285.

And I walk out there and this is summer in Atlanta.

16:54

So none of the men had shirts on, but they had these straps around their chest.

And I'm going, what is this nonsense?

And I talked to to Coach Benson for about 5 minutes and I went from I'm too cool for school.

I'm not doing whatever this is that they're doing, whatever he said.

17:12

And I don't really remember too much of it, but I remember the last line that he gave me, which maybe I pulled out a time or two with some other people.

Matt, I know that I'm doing, I can help you get faster next week.

I'm out there with this.

Yes, Sir.

17:28

This heart rate monitor, chest strap on and what was really cool about that, two things.

One is I wasn't working as hard as I did in college because in college it was bang your head against the wall every opportunity.

We'd run hard Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, different types of workouts, but we're hammering.

17:46

Friday was easy.

We'd race on Saturday and supposedly we did a long run on Sunday, but we're all too dead to do a long run.

So we just did whatever.

And then we did it all again with his coaching because it was trained smarter, not harder.

18:03

And I learned about the different intensities and when do you run this intensity?

What's the point?

Why are we doing this workout?

And I remember having a meeting with him.

I said, coach, I'm not working hard enough.

He said, Matt, how did the race go last week?

Live PR?

Well, it seemed like it's going OK.

18:21

If you want to be tough and you want to bang your head against the wall, I can write you those workouts, too.

So I was like, oh, OK.

And I was working hard.

I, I was probably running more miles than I ever had.

We didn't really even count mileage in college.

We just did what the coach said.

And I wasn't even aware of that.

18:37

But I was getting faster.

I was having fun.

I was mixing it up.

So, but I also looked at his business model because the whole of managing the finish line thing was not a long term solution for me.

And I was looking at this guy is making get the calculator out.

18:56

Oh my goodness.

And he doesn't have to teach.

And the teaching thing, I couldn't find any teachers.

And my former father-in-law was a teacher.

I couldn't find teachers that were happy being teachers.

And it was like I hadn't, I don't think I want to go that direction if I can't find anybody's doing it that's happy.

19:15

So that's why I got out of teaching.

But now here's the opportunity to get into coaching and not be a teacher.

So well not be a teacher of history.

I'd like to think I'm a teacher because, Bauerman says.

Teacher of competitive response I.

19:31

Like that, and at that point you'd already done coaching too, when you were a teacher.

No, because I OK, I, I had three years towards history education, OK.

And that's when I took that job in Atlanta.

So at some point I was probably going to go back.

19:47

I don't know, we'll see how things go, right?

But I realized if I do exercise Physiology, I'm setting myself up to do this.

So 364 days after moving to Atlanta, I was back in Indiana to retain my in state residency to go to Ball State because at the time they were the foremost in the country because of David Castle for exercise Physiology.

20:09

So I studied that for a couple years before that was over.

I had started coaching at Westfield High School back when it was much, much smaller than it is now.

You did.

I'm class of O 4.

I was there, I started a track of 90 and I was there for two track seasons and two cross country seasons, and in that time my daughter was born in 91.

20:33

I started Personal Best Training in February of 91.

Wow, The Black Album came out from Metallica.

It was a big year.

So that's when Personal Best Training began and it was, OK, how do I grow this and how do I manage this without having to get a real job?

20:54

Because I knew that if I got quote UN quote, a real job, I'm not going to get the time energy to this.

And it just so happened that it worked out that I got a job at a running store.

It was Runners Forum in Carmelback, several different locations, different from where it is now, but not too far and worked there for a while.

21:14

When Marty Day owned it, her bus owned it first and then Marty Day owned it.

And then when I graduated, it's OK, I need more hours to make this work.

And, and Marty didn't have them for me.

And I was already coaching one of the owners of Athletic Annex and he had offered me a job.

21:31

So that worked out for a long time to where I was a partner in the Annex and also doing personal invest training, which wasn't too bad for the business, right?

And then in 2013 when I went full time coaching, it was very obvious very quickly because the goal was always to do this full time.

21:52

It was very obvious that I could not do it full time without doing it full time.

And there were some opportunities that came my way and I'd considered them, but it was like, if I'm ever going to make this go, now is the time.

So I'm glad that I didn't get it distracted along the way.

22:10

Yeah.

So we jumped forward a few years there, but.

We did.

I want to go back to to Roy Benson.

Who was he coaching like when you went to see him and meet him for the first time?

Those guys with the straps, who, who were they?

A a pretty good range.

22:27

He had some some really good runners.

He'd worked with Craig Virgin a little bit.

So were they a mix of like, pros and like?

Very much like, very much like my group right now, and there's no coincidence in that.

But back in that time, I just feel like for me personally, as a runner, I just, I got a coach four years ago maybe, and I really didn't understand that coaches were for everyone.

22:49

I thought coaches were reserved only for elites.

Well, in my mind, I, I had, I think a really good cross country coach in in high school and middle school.

I had four different track coaches, distance coaches in high school, which is great.

23:05

I love them all.

They were all fantastic and all a little bit different.

So it gave me a great learning opportunity in college.

The coaching wasn't quite as good.

It was a former sprinter who was who was APT.

So he had some some knowledge, but maybe not the best.

23:23

I knew I still wanted to train hard.

I still wanted to race, but I didn't want to waste my time.

And this guy came into the store and we needed a finish line store and your hardcore runner like I considered to myself.

And a guy came in and wanted to talk about running.

23:39

I was all over him.

He's like, oh, someone was talking about running.

Yeah, how much time do you?

Have and he said you should meet my coach.

And at the time that I was already thinking that and he wasn't all that fast, but there was something about what he told me about the coach.

He's like, yeah, I'm going to meet the guy.

23:54

And and really my first thought was I got to get in really good shape before I go meet this guy right now.

That's his job.

And I wasn't in bad shape, but it worked out really well.

He was one of the probably the pioneer in hurry training for runners.

24:13

And that's why it was such a odd thing that I had not really seen before.

I kind of heard about it.

I looked at runner's role and running times at the time.

So I'd seen these, but I didn't know anyone that ever used one.

But he he had it down and it really worked well.

24:31

And for me it was, it was what I was missing in terms of how do I manage effort.

And so that's kind of my Holy Grail now is helping runners figure out how do you manage your effort, What's the point?

How hard should you be working to accomplish what we want to today?

24:47

Yeah.

So were you still?

Was he still your coach when you came back to Indy?

He was for a little while.

He started coaching me in 88 and probably through about 90.

OK.

And then at that time, long distance was a little bit harder than it is now.

25:04

And then you became a dad and then did you switch?

Did you still have a coach and maintain?

Roy's last coach I had and yeah, since then I going back if I, if I knew then what I know now when I still had a little bit of speed, a little bit of there's some things that I know now that man, I'd like to go back to that 25 year old Matt Ebersole and help him out a little bit.

25:27

Yeah.

And I thought I did OK, but it's OK now I understand.

Yeah, so I think that too, cuz I when you talk about the hammering day after day after day, that's all I ever knew how to do until I had a running coach and until I understood just the basics of you got to run easy, you got to go slow, to go fast.

25:49

I was like, my mind was just blown.

So, OK, so you start, you get in full time.

That had to be.

Do you remember what that feeling was like?

Like when you maybe talk to your wife about it at the time or.

Well, it, it was OK, now's your chance.

26:08

And there haven't been a whole lot of them, but each one has been significant.

There's opportunities that have come along for me, including that, that taking that job in Atlanta, because that led to such great things of, you know, you quote the infamous Eminem one shot, one opportunity and being able to take that that chance and make the most of it.

26:33

And I knew it was very clear.

All right, you said you wanted to do this.

You think you can do this.

Let's let's find out.

And it worked out really well.

And some of the runners that I, I no longer really coach, some of them I still see on a regular basis or they kind of run with the group from that time, a whole special place in my heart because without them this doesn't happen.

26:59

Yeah.

So that's almost so that was in 2013, you said when you went full time.

Yeah.

So that's, yeah, over 10 years, yeah.

And then the in PBT itself is how old now?

27:15

That started in 1990. 11991 yeah.

So that's.

Yeah.

So we're over 30.

Yeah, we're closing in on it'll be 34 years here in a month or so.

So yeah.

That's so that's so incredible, so incredible.

So I'm trying to figure out where to take this, like what to talk about.

27:32

I, I want to make sure we cover you still a little more in terms of like Johanna asked to like, what are your PRS and when you raced and do you ever race anymore?

Because obviously you're the number one coach and cheerleader so.

My best PR and it, it will be impressive to some and laughable to others, is I did manage to sneak into the 30 threes for 10K OK.

27:57

And that was my best day.

And I remember that well because before that race I had my, I didn't think I could run the time, but I thought I could run the pace.

It just was kind of odd that way.

And it was a light rain, which at some point all of my PRS were in the rain.

28:19

So there's something about.

Something about rain.

Yeah, maybe had to do with asthma and rain and who knows what.

But nonetheless, I, that was a really good day and I had one or two before that that led me to believe that I could could do better at that point.

28:40

And even today, my heart is more about 8K and 10 Ki.

Love those distances because you can race them frequently.

There's a more of a competitive nature to them to where the surging is more a part of it, the tactics are more a part of it.

28:58

And I love that.

And what I miss now that I can't do such things is surging on somebody and, and it working.

So that was a lot of fun.

And then I started coaching a lot of marathoners.

29:16

So I ran started running some marathons.

And what I, I didn't have figured out, because I'd have really good training runs.

I thought I was well prepared and I'd have disastrous races.

And there's a couple things I figured out about nutrition, but the primary thing that I didn't figure out until sadly, like the last five or six years was the amount of fluid that I need is far beyond what any dietitian has ever told me.

29:44

That I could take easily 2 liters an hour and I can do more than that.

Wow.

It's just, and I wasn't getting anywhere close to that.

And I was taking, I was, it was for team and training and fundraiser for Leukemia Society.

So I was getting to go to these great places like Honolulu to run marathons.

30:01

Oh, cool, terrible place to run a marathon from for a guy who has a high sweat rate.

Benson, by the way, was first person told me that and I think it was a nice way of of saying it, but you have an incredible sweat rate.

That's really fun.

Now I now I know I should have looked into that more, but now that I understand that, it's like I wish I could go back because I know I was more ready than than some of my marathons showed.

30:29

So that's one of the and my runners now, Oh God, again with a hydration talk.

I know they're thinking that, but it's like if, if you knew and if you can get this down, if this can be a competitive advantage for you because you know how to do it.

So that that's anyway.

30:47

How do you take 2 liters of fluid in an hour?

Ivy drip a little bit at a time, just constantly.

And when I when I run from home, if I'm doing a longer run from home, I'll come back, grab from the mailbox.

My neighborhood is a little bit less than a mile around and a 17 oz bottle.

31:04

I'll kill in that mile.

Wow.

No stomach problems, no sloshing.

It's it's done.

So yeah, I wish I would have known that at the time.

Yeah.

What other outside of Honolulu for a marathon?

What other marathons did you run?

Honolulu, Anchorage.

31:20

My first one was San Francisco.

The first mile the first marathon ever ran was Golden Gate Bridge.

Geez, yeah.

And then going through Golden Gate Park, somewhere around 20 miles or wherever it was, I was seeing people that I'd never seen in a race before and not in a good.

31:39

Way I was thinking that doesn't sound good.

Yeah, like, huh, This is very humbling.

So it it took a little while for me to to figure that out personally because I knew what I was doing.

I was coaching other people do the same thing and they were having a lot more success than I was at that distance.

31:59

People that at half marathon and below weren't a problem for me and were beating me in the marathon.

And now I know that that was just hydration, so.

Did you ever DNF?

Did you ever drop out of a marathon?

I've dropped out of two races in my life and both for five KS.

32:16

OK, five KS.

One was in high school, I got a cramp that just was holding my lungs out of my and there was just, and at that pace, you stop and walk, it's over.

32:32

I mean, but it was, there was just no relaxing it.

I knew all the tricks.

They're rubbing it and the I was done.

And then the other one, I had an asthma attack in 5K at Eagle Creek.

So I forgot my inhaler and.

That's scary.

Did you have to go to the hospital?

No, I just kind of walked back through the woods.

32:50

It was less shameful to walk back through the woods to my car beyond the course did.

Anyone be like, where the hell is Matt?

Yeah.

So those are the only two I dropped out.

There's probably a few that it might have been smarter.

But as I tell my runners, dropping out as the disease and once you do it once, it's now an option in the flow chart in your head.

33:10

So there's times you have to do it, yeah, but we try to avoid that unless you're doing some damage.

So yeah, out of 5K's been no marathons.

OK, OK.

And have you ever run an ultra marathon?

No.

No, I've always Rob Seymour was a friend of mine and now at AD at Fishers High School.

33:31

We had this thing once we broke 3 in the marathon.

It was we're never running over three hours again and we would do long runs and our super duper long runs.

We'd mostly do these in the woods.

So it wasn't real accurate at the time because this was before GPS was any good in the woods.

33:49

We'd run 2 hours, 59 minutes and 50 seconds.

We didn't even want to accidentally get that extra second go to three hours of.

By the way, since then, I haven't gone over.

Three hours.

OK, OK.

I was going to say that sounds like somebody who's like I'm never running.

Again, Yeah, yeah, but not 26.2 I and maybe I'll do that.

34:07

It just.

And I've enjoyed coaching ultra marathoners and I I think that's cool because one of the best things about marathon is telling somebody this yesterday.

The best thing about running a marathon is the first run afterwards.

Sure, you're sore, you're tired, all all those things.

34:25

It's not the most glamorous run ever, but while you're doing it, you're thinking, I just ran twice, how did I do that?

So it's pretty cool to have done something.

I wonder how you did it.

And I think that's the great thing about also is it's kind of mind blowing.

Somebody ran for 50 miles, 100 miles and as somebody has told me, well, 200's a new 100.

34:46

See, it's a slippery slope and that's that's why.

It is a slippery slope you.

Do 50K and it's like, well, why not 50 miles?

50 miles?

That's that's only half, yeah.

Why not?

100K yeah 100.

Miles.

Yep, Yep.

Maybe at some point, but.

There's still a glimmer there, huh?

35:03

Right now I would rather run 5K that I'd be proud of.

OK, I have if I could run a marathon and at least age grading.

That was always nonsense until I got old enough.

But now it's fun to look at that and say OK, this historically sad time compares really well to my best with the age grading.

35:24

And I know it's not perfect, but as you age as a runner you need something to grasp onto.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

What's your oldest athlete that you coach?

78. 78.

Yeah, I've, I've had a few in the 70s and Steve Gilbert, you may know him.

35:41

He's he's a fantastic story.

He has Parkinson's and he's had a few other health issues, but I got he gets out there.

That was one of the highlights of Monumental this year.

He PR he ran 4:50-ish and for his situation, he's qualified for Boston for the second time.

36:04

So that's a lot of fun.

I have a number of other people in their 70s, Shark Cooper, who?

Shark.

I've met her.

Yeah, if she doesn't win the age group, it's like, OK, we got to look this person up and more often than not it's a 25 year old male who borrowed his grandmother's.

36:22

It's like I'm going to see a picture of anybody that beats you.

But so I've had a number in their in their 70s and hopefully Steve or somebody else is going to make it to the 80s and we'll.

Yeah, keep coaching.

And what about youth?

Do you coach in middle school?

High school at.

All I do, if the situation is right, I don't want to interfere.

36:40

I don't want to be the guy getting in the way, but if somebody's not getting the direction they need in middle school or high school and the coach is agreeable to it, I do that.

So I typically have a handful of of school runners and I I love that because it's a little bit different.

36:57

I have to think a little bit differently, OK, we're not going to do the 20 mile long run this weekend.

We're going to do this and it's fun to pull out those 201 hundred workouts and those kind of things.

Yeah, so it's a lot of fun.

And yeah, so at one point I had, Steve was younger than I think I had something like 11 and 77 or something like that in that range.

37:20

And then when we look at marathon time range, it's like, OK, if you don't fit in the range that I coach, come on, I want to make it.

I want to make it a little bit a little bit wider.

Yeah.

What is that?

What is that range approximately?

For marathon time, yeah 216 to about 6 hours 6.

37:39

Hours.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and it's it's fun.

I'll have some some half marathoners that are getting better and they start thinking more about time and, and one of them, a good friend, Karen Hanson, who also knew Jesse Davis at Carmel.

37:56

OK, I got to beat Jessie to the finish line.

She's running the half, he's running the marathon.

Oh yeah, that's kind of.

Fun and she got him by a couple minutes that's great yeah yeah that that was those are fun and and it's it's great to see that because it they feed off of each other as well.

The slower people look at the fast people and say well that's not really me but we're doing the same workout This is kind of cool.

38:19

I'm out here doing what they're doing.

The faster people will tell me, yeah, I'm out here whining and complaining because I'm running these mild repeats and I'm, I'm running five O fives and I want to be running 450 fives.

But then I look at some of the people that I know are are working hard and they're running a whole lot slower than that.

38:36

It's like, OK, come on, just focus on me.

Let's get this done.

Let's do my best because that's what they're doing.

So it's a.

It's a nice dynamic.

Absolutely.

I would love to hear a little bit more about that dynamic and just how you operate really as a as a team.

You have certain days of the week where you have workouts and get together and then also at races.

38:58

In a perfect world, I would have everybody every morning we'd have a 8:00 practice, we'd have a practice in the afternoon.

We'd we'd do all kinds of things.

But because I coach mostly adult and some adult onset athletes that are dealing with real life and jobs and family and other commitments and I've heard other interest than running, I I don't know about that.

39:25

But yeah, what?

Yeah.

So we have all that going on.

So that's not a reality.

But the people that do show up, I, I, I think they benefit greatly from it.

But I, I coach people in different states right now.

Right now, I don't know how many states I have 1314, something like that.

39:45

So they never show up at group runs, but when they're there, I try my best.

We are team here.

Yeah, you people are going to go over there and you're going to do 12 miles in the time takes.

These people do six or seven or or whatever.

40:01

But we're we're here together.

Everybody's important.

Because again, if you're putting the effort into it, if somebody comes in and they're not putting a whole lot of effort into it first, we probably have never met because you won't be talking to me if you didn't want to put a lot into this.

40:20

But if you're working hard, that's all that matters to me.

And are we getting better?

Am I giving you the help that you need?

Talk to me.

What, what do you need?

What, what isn't working?

So I, I think it works out pretty well.

Our workouts in Broad Ripple and also at Eagle Creek, we're doing primarily loops.

40:40

So even if you're not running with somebody, you're seeing somebody else.

You can regroup if you're close enough and ability, if there's a big ability gap, OK, at least you're seeing these other people out here, you know what they're doing.

So I I think it works pretty well.

I would love to have all of my runners in one place at one time more than they are.

40:59

And Monumental Carmel, a few other places.

I get a good group of them, but it's still not everybody and it's still monumental.

This year I had enough people run in Chicago and some other races.

That's like, OK, the whole varsity is not here.

41:16

Or yeah.

But that's also probably my most enjoyable day of the year from the standpoint of getting to see people cross the line.

Oh.

It's so fun.

And the work that I do with monumental, one of the the big perks is I get to be at the the finish line.

41:34

So I get to see my people come across and sharing their joy and get my heart ripped out when I see somebody that I know did the work and they just had a bad day.

And I, I felt that, man.

I know, I know how you feel.

41:51

Yeah, it's going to hurt you till you take care of it.

But it's just a bad day.

It doesn't mean that you can't do it.

It was just a bad day.

So being able to experience that with them is is a really big deal for me.

Yeah, how many?

Approximately how many at Monty Miller's here?

42:09

I think I have about 8080, yeah.

And so that's.

So cool.

Yeah.

And again, a pretty broad range of I used to try to go out on the course and see some people, right, That would be.

Now it's by the time I get done with what I need to do and to be there to see the finish of the 5K.

42:28

OK, Half marathon is coming here pretty soon.

Yeah, by the time the half marathon starts to get a little bit thinner, the marathoners are coming in, so I'm in in one spot.

Yeah, I know my my coach, Rachel Cinders, she was, she was trying to get up on a scooter like to see some, you know, half marathon marathoners.

42:47

And then the scooter died.

So she's like, I don't know, I'm never doing that again.

Right.

Like you don't want to miss your people or something like.

That, yeah.

And if you move and you miss 1 and I go to Chicago and try to get around the Chicago, of course.

And at some point you have to make a decision, who am I following here?

43:04

And if you have somebody that's that's really fast, it's like, OK, if I wait for that, I can't.

Right.

Because if they're well, also if they're expecting to see you in a certain spot, that's hard.

Yeah, I I've become a little predictable at some races, but I also try to just pop up right that way.

43:24

There's not that expectation, but it's.

But when I'm there, it's and it's a lot of fun to see see their face when they don't expect to see me.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you wear Do you wear something like conspicuous so they can spot you?

43:42

The the orange and the singlets.

Yeah, I have a jacket.

You have a jacket?

Orange.

OK, I'm trying to.

I'm sure I've seen you on a race.

And there are places, like Chicago especially, it's hard to pick somebody out.

They can go past you and you miss them, but if I see them, they know I'm there.

I I have my coaching voice, relatively soft spoken.

44:00

What else?

I have a coaching voice.

Oh, I want to hear it.

Yeah, so, well, every once in a while I accidentally use it, but I didn't really mean to startle somebody that way.

That is.

That's surprising.

OK, well, I'll have to figure out a way to to hear that somewhere.

44:19

Yeah.

It's like my parent voice would be, yeah, perhaps.

So how do you help your athletes celebrate success?

Or also like to your point about somebody who just had a bad day, like how long do you let them sit in that or how do you help them kind of move through that?

44:37

There's an art to that and sometimes I get it right, sometimes I don't.

Sometimes I think people just need to be left alone a little while.

I'll say something to him right away, but I'll.

I'll let him sit with it because I I know it was a disaster.

And the last thing is somebody tell them it's going to be.

44:54

Yeah, you're like, it's not.

Yeah, this hurts.

Yeah.

I've always said that running has, for lack of a better phrasing, has given me everything that I have.

But it will also rip your soul out.

And it's fortunately, there's a whole lot less of that.

45:11

And you can come back and, and do something again and you can focus on what it's the positives in it even in those times and you realize the net is way in your favor.

So that can be a little bit difficult.

Some people just handle it better than others.

There's some people that I've been so proud of when I know that they're just feeling so terrible and they're focusing on their teammates and their training partners and celebrating with them even though I know how they feel inside That's.

45:40

And then there's other people that I've wanted to RIP their singlet off because they didn't handle it very well and made a spectacle of themselves.

It's like.

Yeah, yeah.

And that going back to my early days in, in high school, the the thing along with Brett has his help That really flipped the switch for me was standing there or sitting there during the award ceremonies after races and seeing my teammates seeing and me not getting anything.

46:14

It's like, and this is one of the many great things about running.

Obviously I've been in this long enough, I found some positive and one of it is you don't like what you're getting.

What are you going to do about it?

Yeah, yeah.

It's up and yes, there are limitations, but how close are you to those limitations?

46:33

And really I'd like to think of that as my job is let's find your limits.

And that's always the answer that that I want wanted for me and I want for my runners is how good could I be?

Well, let's find out.

And for most of the people, 99% of the people that I deal with, it's what's the best I can be with running as the priority that it can be job, family, whatever else.

47:01

But within that framework, how good can I be?

And I'll tell them when I start coaching somebody, I can fill your day.

You tell me, you put some parameters on this, we're going to make the most of the time and energy that you have.

And when I start getting a little too enthusiastic, pull me back coach like.

47:22

Yeah, I can't run three hours.

Unless you make me fast enough, I'm getting paychecks for this.

Yeah, Yeah.

We're going to have to dial back.

And then I I do have some runners that need to tell me every once in a while I'm ready for more.

And it's a big lesson I learned from from my wife Rebecca, is when I started coaching her without thinking about it, I had limits on her.

47:46

And if I know, if I knew now, if I could go back and treat her like what she turned out to be, she would have been she she still had it.

She probably passed her PRS maybe.

48:03

I was like, oh.

Yeah, I famously told her when we started dating and we were both 4142 and she was talking about different running goals and running a marathon in each state, talking about her marathon PR.

And I said, well, if you're going to change that, now's the time at your age that that has bit me a few times.

48:25

I'm sure she reminds you that every once in a while.

However, she did take off 17 more minutes and PR did at age 48, so.

She showed you.

Yeah, she did.

Well, the reason I ever got to coach her was she showed somebody else.

And this is when Rebecca listens to this.

48:44

She's going with the story again, but it's one of my favorites.

Hey, quick reminder, this podcast is brought to you by Athlete Bouquets.

Visit athletebouquets.com to celebrate the finish lines and milestones of the.

People you love and use code.

48:59

Podcast for 10% off your order.

She was in a a training program before I met her and she said that she wanted to run Boston.

At the time she had run not twice the amount of time that she ended up running, but a good portion of it.

49:17

And she said I I want to qualify for Boston someday.

And the guy in charge of the program laughed at her.

No, not, not a good thing to do to Rebecca Bond.

So through a, through a mutual friend, she talked to me and I started coaching her.

49:33

I coached her for a couple of years and then she went into triathlon, did for Iron Man.

And then actually when we started dating, she did her last Iron Man.

I, I don't know, maybe the man got in the way of more, more Iron Man success.

But she started focusing a little bit more on running and we got back to it and she ended up qualifying for Boston by about two minutes a mile.

49:55

The guy who laughed at her I don't believe ever qualified for Boston so.

I want to punch him in the face, I'm sure.

You do too.

No, I, I, I want to thank him because it it worked out really well.

You know what it did?

It did.

That's good.

Is that so?

You met Rebecca when you started coaching her when you introduced?

50:11

That is so cool.

And just 13 short years later, we had our first date.

That's so that's I'm an acquired taste.

It takes a little while to see my charm.

That is, that is so good.

Yeah.

I, you know, I want to qualify for Boston.

50:28

Thank you for not laughing.

I didn't really give you a chance to laugh, but I'm it's it's one of those things where you're almost afraid to go for it because you don't want to have your soul ripped out.

And so I kind of play this game with myself where it's like, I want to, but if I don't, it's OK.

50:46

But it's like, I really do want to.

And then they keep changing the damn times.

Yeah.

What do you say to people who are like me, like kind of in that?

At some point.

Range.

There's so many great quotes in Once a Runner and the one one that I've used for many life situations, let alone running situations, is that too he could live with because he no longer had a say in the matter.

51:08

At some point you're no longer going to have a say in the matter and you won't be able to train as hard as you need to to do that.

Even though the times are going to get easier, it it might be harder to get to a start line of a race and to do the that kind of training.

Go for it as hard as you can with everything that you can give it because you don't know how many chances you're going to have at it.

51:31

And if you fail, to me, it just seems like it's a lot easier to live with.

I gave it my best.

Then if I'd have given it a little bit more and I look back at at my running and yeah, I would love to redo some things, but there were points where I was giving it probably more than it deserved.

51:50

But that also proved to be very beneficial from a coaching standpoint because there's very few things that I asked people to do that I haven't done.

Now, I hope that they end up running a whole lot faster than I did, having done those 100 mile weeks or whatever it was.

52:07

But I know what that takes.

I know how that feels.

I know what it feels to to give it your best.

So I yeah, do everything you can.

If it's important to you, if it's something that doesn't go away, if it's a wish, who cares?

52:24

If it's really something that's important, go hard.

The importance of qualifying for Boston is it's a big deal.

And some people will look down on that because if they go out and they run a, a Boston qualifying time, that was a really bad day for them.

But I've seen it be so important for people because it's, it is a big hairy audacious goal for a lot of people.

52:48

And if you set that and accomplish it.

And one of the, I had a woman a number of years ago who came into the store and I was selling her some shoes and she was telling me about her running group.

And, and it's one of those things where you start talking to, to a running shoe guy like you would a bartender or your hair stylist and you just start, you didn't mean to tell him this, but you started it or good podcaster.

53:12

And you just, she started telling me they're all so negative.

They all say, oh, we have to run it.

I want to run, I want to be out there.

And I'm, I said, come out, come out and see what it's like because everybody that I coach wants to be there or they wouldn't be there.

And she came out and she had a great time.

53:28

She ended up qualifying for Boston.

And for her, Boston was a big deal because she knew she had a book in her and until she qualified for Boston, she really didn't believe that she could write it.

And she did.

53:44

And she wrote this book and she ended up being one of these positive people, these these cosmic energy people that I rolled my eyes at.

And internally I was kind.

54:02

I loved her and and she was one of my runners.

But inside has rolled my eyes until crisis hit my world.

She was the first one I called and she helped me through some darkness.

And then Rebecca and I fought over her to be my best man or no honor.

54:21

Rebecca won that fight.

Brett Hess was my my best man.

So see that all circled back from that, that Greyhound bust to Atlanta.

So I've seen that be so important to people because if you can do this, and this is going back to some Bowerman stuff too, if you can find meaning in the kind of running it's going to take to stay on this team, you're going to be able to find meaning in another absurd past time life.

54:47

And that's a big deal.

Whatever it can be Boston, it can be finishing a marathon, it can be qualifying for Olympic, whatever it is.

OK, I, I set my mind to something I wasn't sure I could do.

And after I did, I realized how important it was to me.

55:05

What else can I do so that that's why I think it's important.

Whatever that running goal is, Boston just happens to be the one that I deal with the most frequently.

Right.

Well, they make it in kind of not an easy goal, but an easy one to pick, right?

It's like, OK, let's pick that.

It signifies, you know, for me, it signifies my best at this point, right?

55:24

Like that is what I'm chasing is my best.

Not necessarily Boston, although that is somewhere I'd like to.

I have.

Some people have done some pretty amazing things, accomplished so many things.

But people asking about Boston, Yeah.

Have you run Boston?

55:39

Right.

Well, I've run the Olympic trials three times, Right?

But have you run Boston?

But have you done?

Boston.

Yeah, it's like you have to have a Boston jacket if.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah, that is, that is funny.

OK, two more questions about the coaching thing and then I want to talk about kind of the elite athlete recruiting world and the pacing world too, because you've got, yeah, all these things going.

56:01

How again.

But kind of back to the celebrating success.

What does that look like?

And then also firing athletes because it's very clear to me that you're like, if unless you want to be here, like I, you know, you're giving me your best or I don't, you know.

56:16

So how do what are those, those two things?

Celebrating success, it kind of I think the hard part about celebrating success is standing back and letting them celebrate it.

And coaches have huge egos.

We do it's, I can be competitive in 80 different people today.

56:38

It's I do my best to hide it, but it's there.

And so when somebody does well, it's when you hear college coaches after national champion, well, I'm just so happy for the kids.

No, you're pretty happy for yourself in that extra $1,000,000 you're going to make in your next contract.

56:56

So yes, it is about that.

When one of my runners does well, I feel like I've done well.

So it's that, but also realizing they're the ones that did it.

They're the ones that executed.

They don't make this about me.

That's that's their victory.

I was honored and I don't say that lightly.

57:15

I know that's a highly overused word, but I was honored that they let me be a part of it.

Stand back.

I want to celebrate with them, but also don't make this about me.

This is about them.

They did this and then it's about different personalities.

57:34

Some you need to observe that win a lot longer.

Other people, if somebody comes to me and says I want this, if they've accomplished a stepping stone, it's yes, let's celebrate this.

Let's be thankful for that, that we're on the right track.

57:50

OK, now let's get back to work.

Now let's do this.

So it's really all about what they tell me they want to do.

So don't tell me you want to be here if if you're not willing to do that work or you want to be happy here or you want to chase other things that take you away from your goal.

58:07

But yeah, that's that's at my e-mail or anywhere else.

There's I can't be at every race.

I would like to have the budget to some of my races in Berlin or right or even Boston.

The logistics of that are getting around or bad.

But if I'm not there and I'm following them online or, or hear how they did, and this is, this is great and I try to be in touch with them as quickly as I can.

58:33

They don't have to get back to me.

But if they cross the finish line, OK, they have the text.

They have the text on their phone one second after they cross the finish line.

So we're kind of celebrating together.

What's your go to text message for that?

Does it depend?

I don't have it's it's really.

58:50

Just a thumbs up.

A very dad response.

Just thumbs up.

No, it's it's it might be.

I know it got hard at whatever mile because I'm seeing the splits and typically I know the course enough.

And you fought through it.

Don't, don't let the last rough couple of miles diminish what you did because that was a fight.

59:12

We always talk about that in the marathon.

Push the fight back as long as you can because it will come.

If it doesn't come, you're not working hard enough.

So we just don't want it to show up at 14.

That's a, that's a, that's a long fight.

That's too many rounds.

So it depends on how the race went and what I saw and and what I know that they've worked through.

59:33

Did their training go perfectly?

Did they have to come back from some things?

And this is a win, even though it's not the win that we expected six months ago.

So it really depends on on what they've done.

Yeah.

And then for the athletes that are like, yeah, I want to do this and I want to be coached, and then they don't do anything like does that happen anymore or people just know now enough?

59:57

I think that approach to running, I make them feel very uncomfortable, even without trying.

I I joke with the Robert Jackson is one of them that I joke with about this.

Hi, Rob.

1:00:13

Yeah.

And say what you will about him, he will do the work.

So whenever I've said this to him, it is in a joking manner.

But there's some people where it's, it's kind of true.

Oh, I thought you wanted to get better.

1:00:29

I misjudged you.

You're like that kind of thing.

You need that with like a shirt, like on a shirt that's.

Somebody, I did say, I did say to somebody one time, is this about training logs or racing?

Because they were doing things to make their training log look pretty.

1:00:46

That was hurting their race performance.

They did get they did make a shirt for me, so occasionally I'll wear that when I do my weekly video.

Yeah.

That's great.

But yeah, that's so I those people don't last too long.

And, but I, I should also say that I've coached some people for a very long time, 10-15 years.

1:01:08

And what's interesting is to see them go through cycles and I'm going to qualify for Boston or, or breaking 3 or whatever their marathon goal is.

And it's very serious to them.

And then something changes in their life with a job or family.

Now I want to be part of the running club and take this a little more casually, or so I get.

1:01:28

And then they'll come back.

OK, things have changed again.

I want to get back into that.

So it's fun to see.

Another beautiful thing about running is it gives you what you need.

You figure out how does this fit and how it fits in my life now versus how it fit a few years ago.

1:01:44

Completely different, but find out what does it mean and having that aligned with what you say and what you think and what you're going to do if those align, you can find a lot of joy in running.

Yeah, absolutely.

Since you mentioned Rob, I'm going to ask one of his questions that you already heard me say, which is what is it like to to coach Rob Jackson?

1:02:05

I already mentioned Rob Seymour.

Rob Seymour was a guy that I've run, I think thousands of miles with.

He was the one that we were never going to go over three hours and I started coaching him when he just started running and he was one of those annoying guys that was we do a workout the oh, that's my 5 KPR.

1:02:25

That's my he was PR and every and he ended up having a really good day at Boston a few years later and he he's been a friend for a long time, But coming back from Boston or maybe in Boston, he ran into Robert Jackson and he's talking to Rob and he says, Hey, I need some help.

1:02:44

I just started doing this.

I don't.

And Robert was already at Boston, so, you know, he picked his parents better than I did for a running talent.

So Rob said I got the guy you should talk to.

So you sent him my way.

And then I, I met him at the Mini a couple weeks later.

1:03:02

And Robert's been a joy to coach.

But also how, how can I convey this better?

How can I get you to see this with the experience that you don't have because he is running times that somebody that has maybe run in high school and college and and has more experience.

1:03:25

He doesn't have that.

So there's some things that maybe I've missed along the way that I didn't explain as as well to him, but he's come around.

I I the fun is he parted monumental and I he'll tell you the same thing.

We haven't hit perfect is never going to happen, but we haven't hit as close to perfect as we could expect.

1:03:46

So we know there's more there that's fun.

We don't know how much more is there, which is the fun in this right seeking that answer.

How good can I be?

So he's a lot of fun.

We have he sent me this, He sent me this a few times, but he sent it to me just this week.

1:04:03

The list of all time black born Americans and how he is on that list.

And I look at that two ways.

Well, that's great Robert, that you're this high on that list.

But it's also sad because we know that the Kenyans, Ethiopians and Ugandans ruled the sport by and large.

1:04:23

How do we get more black American men into this sport?

And Robert will tell you it's not cool.

It's not cool.

That's why people don't run.

And so he's out there going, I won't give you the exact quote, but we're out at Eagle Creek at at 10 below 0 or something one day.

1:04:45

And I walk up to him and I'm not a huge fan of the cold either, but I walk up to him with a fake sense of enthusiasm to be running in this cold.

And hey, Robert, how are you doing?

This is crazy white people.

Yeah.

1:05:01

Yeah, yeah, Robert, but you're out here with us.

So we know of there's maybe not his natural talent level, but we know there's plenty of black American men and women.

1:05:18

I don't know why I'm, I guess I'm saying men because he, he showed me the men's list.

But why not?

Yeah, we, we know Eastern Africa rules this sport.

Come on.

Yeah.

And so we're looking forward to trying to figure out a way to find other people.

1:05:38

And it's gotten to where I'm at races now, or I'm watching race on TV and I'm looking for black men coming across.

So it's like, there's got to be more than this.

There's got to be more than this.

And it's like, oh man, all these white people.

So I hope that that's something that we can do together is encourage that participation because we know it's going to come.

1:05:59

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man.

Well, he's going to be on this podcast at some point.

I'm excited to get to know him better.

Well, he's so shy you'll have a hard time getting him to talk.

I don't know I can.

I can.

Pull it out.

Yeah, he's a podcast veteran.

1:06:15

He's going to do great.

He'll he'll entertain you.

Well, OK, gosh, I have so many more questions.

I want to talk about some of the other work that you do, the pacing that you do for a Monumental and also recruiting elites like that whole world.

1:06:36

I really still don't know a whole lot about like how do we get somebody to come to our race?

You help Monumental with that in particular.

Yeah.

So I started that in 2013, the year I went full time, went full time.

And Blake Bolton I, I coached John Little and John Little I believe was the, the head of the board at that time.

1:06:59

So he had been involved.

He was on the board and then I think he was in charge of the board for a little while and I coached him and Blake Bolton came on as the executive director and, and Blake Bolton had great running and coaching background.

1:07:15

He was entrenched in running as a sport.

John was in it as a sport.

And when you take over an entity like Monumental Marathon, it's also an activity we need.

You know, we want to grow this in terms of numbers, but we also don't want to ignore the sport aspect of this as some races make that choice one or the other.

1:07:37

So early on, John told, and I'll make this story short, but Bolden came to me because of John said, hey, do you want to do our pace teams and our elite athletes?

And trying to make this work, it's like I got to say yes to a few things and get a little bit more exposure.

1:07:55

So I started doing that and from the very beginning with their support, it was we want this to be a good race upfront.

We don't want to pay somebody to come in or a few people to come in and have outrageous prize monies to wear.

1:08:11

And I've seen this with other races in town where you have this group way up here standing at the mile mark and it feels like there's 3 minutes ago by of course it's not.

And then everybody else that does us no good.

We want to race.

We want it deep.

I want to see how many people can break this time.

1:08:30

How how tight can we have this.

So that was the goal from the beginning.

So it wasn't a real conscious thing of we definitely want this level of athlete.

It was let's make this the best race we can.

And we by doing that, we gained this reputation as a great place to qualify for the trials.

1:08:50

And one of the early years now I don't remember is probably maybe 2014, we had the oldest and youngest women's qualifiers for Olympic trials.

Yeah, very cool.

So that kind of put us on the map.

1:09:05

That's where we got picked up a few times.

So there's some things like that that have gone along the years.

We, our prize money still is not that incredible, but we pay Olympic trial bonuses and it's kind of fun staying at the the finish line a few years later with Jed Cornforth, who's the executive director now, who also has a competitive background and worked at USA Track and Field and some other things.

1:09:32

So he sees it as a sport and as an activity, which is is so important.

You go one way or the other and your race is not going to thrive.

And when we balance those two, it can thrive.

But we're standing there at the finish line and we're celebrating the qualifiers coming through and Jed's conflicted.

1:09:51

He's like.

Pitching, pitching because we're paying a lot of bonus money, yeah.

Oh.

Crap.

Yeah.

It's like slow down, slow down South.

And he's happy too.

But it's kind of like, oh, there's a financial reality to to doing this.

1:10:07

So there's a financial commitment to doing that.

And the number of comp entries that we give out or discounted entries that we give out to that.

And in in my head and through conversations, I kind of have a number.

And because not everybody says we're going to come is going to come, you can take more than that knowing that there's this natural attrition.

1:10:30

But there's always this point in about September when I go, I'm about 100 runners over and some some years we end up over.

But we want to make sure that the race is deep.

And frankly, more than me getting on the phone call and asking people to come and making them fantastic deals they can't resist to to come race, it's that reputation and that comes from the board and the executive director and the staff of we're going to support this and in both from both directions.

1:10:59

So that's how we've done that.

And then occasionally we'll get calls from somebody who is really good and will incentivize them to come.

And I'm a huge fan of bonuses for performance.

If you win and you break the record or if you break this time or you break and there's kind of a schedule for if you go this fast, if you break 2 hour.

1:11:22

We haven't gotten to that point.

I haven't offered anybody a sub two bonus yet.

We'll pay you whatever you want.

Yeah, but so it makes sense for some of them to come in and do it.

And some of them might be thinking Houston or somewhere else, but I need a half marathon or this is far out enough I want to run a marathon.

1:11:42

But then there's also some really good runners that know that they're never going to win Boston, NY, but they can come win money on a marathon.

And so that that's, we're still trying to, to get one of the numbers that I keep track of.

And two years ago we had over 70 people break 70 minutes in the half marathon.

1:12:04

So that is fun for me to see because there are some really good races where you see 10 people or less break 70.

But we have that group we have, and I'm forgetting the numbers exactly, so I'm not going to throw out guesses here.

1:12:20

But we have more people most years break 3 hours than break 90 minutes, which is good because it's the monumental marathon and half marathon.

So we, we do want to focus on the marathon maybe a little bit more, but it's also great half marathon.

And that's kind of the reputation does most of the recruiting for us.

1:12:41

But if there's somebody that comes in and they're at a high enough level, OK, let's talk.

What how does this make sense for you to be here?

And we try to treat kind of like my group, I guess we try to treat the fastest and anybody else that's in the elite because we have 3 levels of elite.

1:13:00

If you're seated elite, we want you to feel important.

We want you to have that bottle on the table.

We want to give you that elite experience.

And, and certainly we can't do everything for everybody, but we we try to make them feel important.

And we have groups from Chicago that say Chicago is a great marathon.

1:13:20

It's our hometown marathon.

We love it.

But you make us feel important.

It's like, OK, you are important, that's why we're making you feel that way.

But so that's how that's kind of working.

Yeah, How did Sarah Hall end up coming?

She needed a race.

1:13:35

Yeah.

She needed a half marathon and we've dealt with her agent over the years.

For some other runners, though, I think we're on their mind as a short list of possibilities, so that worked out well.

Another tricky thing about elite athletes is it's better if they don't know who else is coming.

1:13:56

Yeah.

Because it's easy to pull a hamstring if you know suddenly you're not going to get.

Yep, I know what you're saying, Yeah.

Yeah, well is great for the races.

She was third.

Right.

I'd love that that somebody with her resume can come in and not just walk away with it.

1:14:16

Yeah, I just assumed she'd.

Like, and yeah, I know this was not the focus of her year and I know that this was a stepping stone to something else.

I don't know what she did the week before.

She might have completely trained through who knows what.

But it it's kind of nice to to be able to have that and it's not just a foregone conclusion that they're going to win.

1:14:37

Yep Yep.

And Emma Grace is local to Andy which I loved.

The winner this.

Year, yeah.

And Cole Hawker, when he came in, that what I really wanted to say to him, and Jed beat me to it, I think was his senior year in high school, he ran the Monumental mile and got second.

1:14:53

And when he crossed the line, I remember the look in his eyes because I knew who he was.

We had texted back and forth about getting in the race at the last minute because his season ended just the week before.

And look in his eyes was like, I can't believe I got beat.

1:15:11

You thought you were just going to come walk.

Away with this.

So when he was here this year, I wanted to say, you know, I hope that gold medal and Olympic record have taken away some of this thing of being second to the monumental well.

But I think Jed had already mentioned it to him by the time I get to talk to them.

Yeah, Jed's like, how can I, how can I get him to come to more stuff?

1:15:29

Come home.

Yeah.

So I, we, we did offer that.

But you win the national championships, it's about the same week.

It's kind of hard to.

Yeah, yeah.

Hard, hard to get that, but.

Well, I'm glad you gave me that Segway because I wanted to talk about you interviewing Cole.

1:15:45

It's so cool.

So how how did that come together and like, how did you feel?

What did you do to prepare?

As you might imagine, my monumental the two months leading up to monumental monumental week, the last couple days, it's it's all I can handle and I've been doing it now since 2013.

1:16:05

So I figured out how to do it smarter and but still it's it's a lot.

And when Jed asked me if I wanted to do that, I said, Jed, if you could have asked me two seconds ago, do I want to add anything to my plate race weekend, I would have said no.

1:16:23

This I'm doing.

Right, you can't say.

That yeah, it's like, OK, and it was was something new and I don't do and probably don't do enough new things that I haven't done before.

And it's like, OK, how do I want to do this?

And so I listened to a lot of his interviews because I thought I want to make this somewhat enjoyable for him as well.

1:16:47

I don't want the same questions.

But after listening to a few has realized, OK, they've asked every question.

There was one question that I thought he didn't answer that he'd been asked once or twice that I was going to try to nail him down on.

1:17:03

But so I I did that.

But I also thought about in these terms, people are going to be listening to this and if they're a Co Hawker fan, they already know the story.

They've already heard, they've heard the same questions.

So I'm going to gear my questions towards what can we take from an Olympic record gold medal winner that apply to these people that are going to run 2 1/2 to 6 1/2 hour marathons that that are going to listen to this?

1:17:32

So I would pick out the things that he would say in interviews that I knew applied.

For example, one of them was he gets crazy nervous before a race and I know that a for our marathoners going well, Why did he get nervous?

He's he's so fast.

1:17:49

Well, same reason we all get nervous.

Can I give my best?

Can I do my best?

Can I live up to my own expectations and maybe expectations of others?

So we talked about that.

So hopefully I I did a good job in doing that, but he was fantastic.

1:18:07

I've oddly enough, I've been around a few gold medal winners, so I have some context.

And when I walked into the room, because he was in a room by himself with the security guard when I first met him, kind of his green room, I guess.

1:18:25

And I walked in and one of the things I was looking for Robert Jackson is what shoes he was wearing because he's a Nike athlete and Robert and I have this thing for Nike shoes and the Jordans and whatnot.

1:18:42

And I walk in and he's wearing field Generals, which were a one of the first turf shoes and they were real popular when I was in high school.

And he's wearing field Generals football shoe.

So I said nice Field generals.

1:19:00

He goes all the guys your age like these, but then he also said my dad and my coach, it's like, OK, if you're throwing me with the guys his age and I include your dad and your coach, I'm cool with that.

Yeah, yeah.

So we talked about that briefly and then I, we talked about how we went to do the interview and make sure he was OK with the direction I wanted to go and if he had anything he wanted to talk about that kind of stuff.

1:19:27

And he, he balances as well as anybody I've been around, supreme confidence and sense of purpose with being just a good, approachable human being.

1:19:43

Yes, I yeah.

And so that that was a lot of fun to see that because you know, they'll quote you never want to meet your heroes kind of thing.

But he was fantastic and and so accommodating.

It was also fun to to just walk down the hall with him.

1:20:03

When we walked down the hall to go into where we did the interview, he had two security guys, Jed and a few of the staff were kind of around him.

And I'm just walking behind watching.

And the interesting thing is to watch people watch him and some people walking by completely oblivious, which is maybe a good thing about being a running celebrity, is most people have no idea.

1:20:24

Who?

You are right.

But then there's others that are going, mouth dropping off.

Oh, that's cool walk and taking pictures and coming up and trying to get in his face and he's just, you know, we're just moving along just gracefully and and it was that was fun to just get a little glimpse of what his life is like.

1:20:45

And he's he's said this to where I go most places.

Nobody knows who I am, right, But I go to running things.

I'm kind of a big deal.

It's kind of.

Like and I got security guards.

But this is this is kind of fun.

So I I thought the I thought the interview went really well until I watched it and then the the interviewer could clean up a few things.

1:21:06

I haven't watched my panel.

That was before.

I haven't watched it yet because I just cringe a little.

It's the first time I had done anything like that.

And so I just know that there's going to be a lot of tearing myself apart.

So if I listen to it, I like it if I watch it.

So that was a little back off on the coffee there, buddy.

1:21:23

And then I had notes, but the way that we were seated, I just had to put them on the ground.

So every once when I was looking down because based on the as you know the length of his answer, I might have to skip that.

Right.

Or there's something else that I want to talk about now instead of that.

1:21:39

So I'm looking down a few times.

But then it was a blast.

It was a lot of fun.

I'm glad I did it.

Now I'm ruined.

If you're not gold medalist and record holder I I don't have the time for.

You don't have the time.

I want to get his dad on this podcast.

1:21:54

That would be fun.

And I, Brendan Kelly gave me his contacted version.

I texted him and he didn't text me back, which is not surprising.

Can you imagine getting like a random text message from somebody?

But I told Cole because like you getting to walk with him in there, I had the opportunity to walk out in that same way and and got to chat with him for a few minutes before he like took a break for a guy.

1:22:21

But yeah, I was like, so I really want your dad to come on my podcast and he's.

Like, and that one of the question I asked him is what made running seem like I talked about my grandfather, what made running seem like an option to you?

And part of it was his dad and his dad's running and so cool.

And I've heard him talk about his dad's reaction during during his Olympic race and all that.

1:22:41

So yeah.

Yeah, I would love to hear.

Yeah, because you know Carmel IN a lot of it, you know, your kids not going to be an Olympian.

Yeah.

Well, so what's it like when that becomes a reality and a possibility?

What's the?

Swim team.

Then you got to be a.

Good shot.

Yeah, that's good.

1:22:57

Good.

That is true.

I don't have a swimmer yet, but yeah, So what a cool, cool experience.

Yeah, it it was a lot of fun and it was fun to watch him and as he was at the race and we had Dina Dryson a couple years before and she was incredible.

1:23:13

She we'd ask her if she wanted a break.

No, I'm good.

I'm good.

And that came about because I was at Cherry Blossom 10 Mile and I was standing in the lobby and I'm looking over there and I just started reading her book and she's standing by herself, probably waiting for a ride or whatever.

1:23:34

All right, so I went over and talked to her a little bit.

I said I just started reading your book.

I like told her a couple things I liked about it so far.

Wow.

And she was very gracious and talked a little bit.

She if she got a stalker vibe, she didn't.

She didn't show it.

1:23:50

Yeah, she didn't show it and I'm sitting at the airport with my friend.

I want why?

Why don't we bring her to Monumental?

So I don't know, I don't know how I got her contact him, but I contacted her and then her agent and Jed talked and we got her here and she was fantastic.

1:24:08

So it's, it's fun to have.

There's a lot of elite people that aren't as much of a treat to be around, but when you get one that's that accomplished and that and and they're great people, it's fantastic.

Yeah, how do we I know you're already, you've already got your wheels turning before it's even race day for this year on how to get and who to get.

1:24:30

And.

But it's cool that that's how Dina ended up here.

Just kind of a Yeah, so.

It's.

Wow.

Yeah.

I'm excited to see what we do this year or next year.

I guess this will come out in 2025, so we can say this year.

Wow.

Yeah.

So OK, in the time that we have left together, we didn't talk about the pacing part of it.

1:24:54

So maybe briefly talk about that piece of the.

Puzzle that came about and that because at the time, pacing in marathons was kind of new.

In 2013, it wasn't the expected thing and there were a number of pacing companies out there that were holding races hostage.

1:25:13

I want this much per pacer.

You got to give them a free entry.

You have to give them a hotel room, and it was getting crazy.

I mean, ten, $15,000 to have a pace team in there and they weren't hitting as many paces as we do.

So it was like, OK, we need to replace this.

And the, and the hope was that I had enough contacts locally that we could get more local Pacers.

1:25:35

And we do.

And, and I'd like to have local Pacers when we can, But there's also some people that I know that I can count on.

Guy named Pete is just fantastic.

He's my captain every year at Monumental and he pays this somewhere every weekend.

1:25:53

If you go through race results looking for what you're going to see his name and he's fantastic.

So there's some people around the country that have really worked out well.

And, and if I'm stuck and I need to fill this or somebody drops out last minute, all right, Peter, who you got and he can find somebody and, and a few people like that.

1:26:15

But so we've been able to do that.

We've been able to go deeper.

I always have what we publish.

We try to hit these paces, but secretly I'm trying to hit a few more and we try to deliver more of those than than we promise.

1:26:30

And sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

But that's that's a little bit hard because it's it's tricky.

If I do it too early, I have too much turnover.

Things happen to people.

'S right?

So I have to wait a little bit longer than I like and then still we have people dropping out, getting hurt, whatever at the last minute and have to replace them.

1:26:51

So that that's worked out well too.

But it's I've been asked to do that for some other right?

No.

Yeah.

No, beyond monumental, only Fort Bend Monumental.

That's that's it.

I cannot.

So those are the only two that you.

I didn't realize that.

1:27:07

OK, Yeah.

Well, I can see why you'd be like, yeah, you gotta yeah that say no to something.

That's harder because if I have a four and a half hour pacer drop out on me versus an elite that might have won the race, nobody cares about that elite person that might have won the race.

1:27:27

I do, but the average person, but everybody trying to run 430 knows that you did not deliver a 430 pacer.

So that's where I feel the pressure.

So yeah, those two races are enough.

Well.

At least you got a roster of athletes where you can be like, well, look at this.

This weekend your workout is to run a 430 marathon.

1:27:45

Weird.

Exactly, I know.

You normally run 330 but hey.

Hey, this will be fun.

It'd be good time on fee.

I mean, exactly, exactly.

OK, so the future of PBT, right?

You're over 30 years in.

Like you could say yes to pacing more races if you like hired employees.

1:28:03

Or would you ever have like a roster of coaches that work for you?

Or is that just not what you want?

When the right situation would again, things that have come my way and I I take advantage of if the right situation came along, I would having kind of a again, my team is great, but because people are pulled different directions and can't be in one place at one time.

1:28:26

If there's an opportunity for a more of a team situation, I would be interested in that.

I I'm reminded of a John Mellencamp line when he was asked about his career and he said, I've always thought keep it small and keep it going.

1:28:44

And when I heard that's like, yeah, that's that's personal best training, I don't want to get it too big.

I know most people in it sounds very egotistical, but I guess I'm somebody you are driven like like everyone is, they're coming for my help.

1:29:00

So if I have somebody that I've coached long enough, OK, maybe they can help with this, but the right situation isn't there to formally expand it in that way.

I have a couple of outlying areas where we've tried to do that.

1:29:17

We'll, we'll see.

I, I like what I do.

I like the way that I do it.

I would like to have more opportunities with very talented people because those that I've had, I don't think I've squandered too much talent over the years.

I think I've helped people maximize it.

1:29:35

Having more of those opportunities is interesting.

I need the balance because if you're all in that world, it becomes there's a stress with that and there's a monotony with that.

So mixing that up with people of my talent level and that's still important to me.

1:29:52

But that obviously is interesting for me.

The Olympic trial qualifiers that I've had those, those are always memorable because short of the Olympic Games, that's the next step.

It's Boston Olympic.

There's not a whole lot of intermediate major goals there, right, other than PRS, which individual to everybody.

1:30:12

But you have Boston, you have Olympic Trials, and then you have Olympics and it's well.

There's another business idea for you.

Yeah, Yeah.

But.

Create that.

Create that goal.

Yeah.

Well, I also just think, you know, the approachability of PBT right with again, the range that you have is, is so important for somebody who's just never had a coach before or looking to get started.

1:30:37

And and So what?

What do you say to those those runners?

Well, that hits on something else.

I've been accused of a lot of things.

I've been accused of being a high mileage coach, a low mileage coach, Too elitist.

1:30:54

I coach too many slow people.

I, I I.

We need the mean tweets.

Yeah, I, I guess because of the range, it depends how you view that.

And I know that when I write something or even when I do a weekly video, if I write a training idea or a suggestion you want might want to add this to your training.

1:31:17

I know the 17 exceptions to what I just said.

So if somebody talks to me about their running and they have this preconceived notion about what I would have somebody do, or they know one of my runners, OK, they're in a different situation or they've gone rogue and they're doing that.

1:31:33

I didn't tell them.

I have a few of those from time to time, they do something crazy and maybe they get away with it, maybe they don't.

But if somebody talks to me about their running and I know their situation, my answer might be completely different than what they think that I'm going to say.

1:31:52

And there's people that I've tried to pull back in mileage, just people that I've, OK, you need to run more.

You're telling me you want to do this, you need more mileage or, or whatever.

So I guess that's the the thing with anybody at whatever end of the spectrum really fast or just getting started or I've been at this for a while and I'm getting nowhere at whatever speed.

1:32:17

Let's let's talk about it and tell me what you're doing.

And that's how I start all these conversations.

When somebody wants to talk about coaching, I have to fill out a runner profile.

So I kind of see, and sometimes there's a very glaring, oh, This is why, yeah.

1:32:34

Do we need to go any further?

So I think that's the biggest thing of what is your situation and how do we want to approach that?

What is your life situation?

And part of that runner profile is I'm trying to figure out, OK, you're telling me you have all the time in the world, but you don't.

1:32:55

Yeah, you have this.

You're running two businesses, you have 6 kids.

And so let's make the most of what you can.

Yeah.

And is it PBT training or is it personal Best training.com, personalbesttraining.com.

And so if somebody's interested in talking to you about about coaching, they can go to your website.

1:33:15

That's a great way to do it.

OK, perfect.

Yeah, and then we didn't start the episode with this, so I have to ask you about becoming a grandpa or what are you going to be called?

Do you have a grandpa name?

Poppy.

Poppa.

Right now they're just starting to make beautiful sounds and giggles, so I haven't been called anything yet.

1:33:34

Yes, Grandpa is fine.

My grandfather, my grandfather Mathias, who went by, went by Jack, but I'm named after him.

He was Pop, so that would be a heavy thing to carry, but I'm up for it.

1:33:50

It is the greatest thing ever.

OK, they're twins.

They're twins, they're fraternal twins.

They are different.

They're both so beautiful.

The other day I was out running and my daughter worked for a company called Keep It Neat and they go organize houses and this kind of thing.

1:34:09

So she's able to do a little bit of that from time to time, even though she's not back to to work full time.

And so she dropped the girls off.

My wife took a vacation day and she's going to watch the girls for a couple hours.

1:34:25

And I came into the neighborhood and I saw the light on in my son's room who hasn't lived at home for a few years.

And I knew the babies were here.

And as I told Katie, my heart leapt.

It's like I can't run fast enough to get into the house to see the girls.

And it wasn't anything I really gave much thought to because it when it happens, it happens.

1:34:44

Oh man, man, it's it's the best.

I wish you guys could see Matt's face, like in the light that that came into your eyes and your face just talking about them.

I always have this pressure in my head about time and I need to do this.

1:35:00

I I need to.

When I'm with them, the computer's off.

I'm not looking at the phone.

It's and fortunately my daughter is close, so I get to spend tonight.

I'll probably be there for a couple hours later tonight and it's just just holding them, even if they're crying and I'm trying to calm them down.

1:35:20

And OK, it's not time to be fed yet, but I know whatever it is, it's it's just the best.

And they'll be that day when they won't care too much about grandpa being around.

But now.

1:35:36

It's not that day.

Yeah.

And so, so the joy that my family brings me, it's, it's nothing I can be proud of because it's not really my doing.

It's but it's such a joy.

1:35:52

So thank you for asking.

It's awesome.

And I'm trying really hard not to show people pictures all the time, but occasionally I can't stop myself.

Yep.

Hannah Bass, one of my speedy runners, just adopted a son.

1:36:09

And so it's kind of like, OK, I can show her pictures cuz, cuz she has pictures to show me.

So we're, we're kind of, and it's kind of fun that she's, as you might guess, a whole lot younger than me, but we're kind of going through a little.

She's 24/7.

1:36:25

It's now no comparison, but I get 2 at a time sometimes.

But so it's, it's fun to kind of compare and talk about that.

So are you going to be gifted a double jogging stroller for Christmas or at some point?

I don't enough yet but.

My kids were Katie loved this, the stroller, and she would say faster, Daddy, and I'm thinking I would go faster if I wasn't pushing it.

1:36:48

And then my son Christian wanted nothing to do with it.

Yeah, we'd be in there for 3-3 minutes and he's ready to be done.

So yeah, we'll see.

We'll see.

I bet.

I bet you could.

Yeah, get that.

We'll do.

Whatever they want to do.

Yeah, it's hard.

1:37:03

I remember those days.

I just got rid of my jogging stroller not all that long ago.

And that was kind of brutal.

But the days where you just like shove and I'm giving them all the snacks, you know, the stuffy they need the iPad once they were old enough for that just to be like, OK, can you get me?

Can I get 6 miles, please?

1:37:20

But also knowing this isn't about my run today, it's about being with them and sharing that experience and then if they don't want to do it, turning around and going and kind.

Of going full circle with that normalizing this phone movement, activity, exercise, let alone the sport of running.

1:37:39

But this is normal.

We get out and we move.

This is what we do.

And my daughter and her husband Andy are are great about getting them out and doing stuff.

They have been to more coffee shops, more football games.

My son-in-law Andy coaches football.

1:37:55

So we're at the games and I didn't get to see much of the games because normally I'm holding, feeding or whatever, but it's kind of fun to be there.

And, and so it's we're going to normalize being active, doing stuff and whatever they want to do, I'm all for.

1:38:13

Maybe it's running, maybe it's something I know nothing about, which is probably better, at least for the coaches coaching them.

But it's they're, they're fantastic parents and and be able to see my daughter do that.

So fun.

1:38:29

Yeah, Congrats again.

That's amazing.

Amazing.

Thank you.

All right, end of the podcast questions.

So what is your you've given a lot of good mantras today, by the way.

I wish I will write them down as I edit this but favorite mantra and or song?

1:38:46

There are so many and I think I have at least one if not 2 for every occasion.

The runner up.

Can I give you 2?

Oh, to 100.

Percent the runner up is and I'll I'll cut this paragraph shorts from from once a runner and it had not so much to do the zippy mental tricks and and it goes through this list of things as that most heart rending process of removing molecule by molecule very tough rubber.

1:39:09

They comprise the bottoms of this training shoes and every time there's something new and and getting a lot of attention, it's still going to come down to getting out and running and doing the work.

So that one's always been very important to me.

We don't want to ignore anything that might help, but really it's going to come down to this.

1:39:28

But the one that is the most important to me, because I figured this out after a few years of running, because in high school I tried to get psyched up for races and the night before I run through all that and then race day and is the nerves and all that kind of stuff.

1:39:50

And I had some incredible first quarter miles of five KS because of that.

But once I learned to focus on running smart and running hard because that's what I can control, it was very rare I had a bad race.

It might not have been the time I wanted to the place I wanted, but I didn't have bad races.

1:40:09

They were very few and far between.

And so I encourage all my runners run smart, run hard, and good things tend to happen so that that is that it.

Oh there it is.

OK I just assumed that said personal best training.

I didn't even read.

It that that's good, That's the one.

1:40:25

Yep, that's a good one.

Smart, because that's hard sometimes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Those things together, you're gonna, you're gonna do OK.

That's good.

What about songs?

Do you have like a PBT song as like a team?

Is it Metallica?

1:40:42

We.

We do not.

But the first thing that pops in my head is give me fuel, give me fire, give me that which I desire.

Huh.

There we go.

Yeah, Metallica, but there's all kinds of good ones out there.

But but that's that's the one that in my head if I have a good day.

1:40:58

Yeah, that's good.

That's a good one.

Yeah.

OK.

Next finish line or milestone do you ever like would you?

Do you run any races ever or?

Just not, not too often.

And maybe that will change again.

I ran one last year and had a blast.

1:41:17

I just loved it.

And it was in Chicago and it was Shamrock Shuffle.

And again, historically, the time was, and I've, I've laughed out loud in the kind of the last mile I saw the, I think I saw the four mile split and I was having a pretty good day for where my fitness was.

1:41:42

And I thought I've run faster than that in this town for 26.2.

Then I just ran a mile.

Oh yeah, that.

Hurts but but keeping that in contact and it's like I'm having fun and even in the years because I haven't raced frequently for a long time, but even in those years I do hard workouts, I do time trials because running easy every day is just bores me out of my mind.

1:42:07

So I have to do those You earn the easy runs and now I can enjoy going out and jogging because I've earned them.

So maybe that will come back.

You know, I, I joke with one of the guys that I run with Neil Harrington, who's been kind enough slowed down for me and especially in recent months as he's gotten faster again, is I'm just laying low till I'm 60.

1:42:32

So it isn't too far off, but.

That's good.

So maybe.

Yeah.

And then milestones.

So for PBT, well, 40 years is a little ways away like 30.

When will 35 be next year?

1:42:49

Yeah, 2026.

Yeah, we do do anything to celebrate that kind of milestone or is it just like, well.

I was going to do something for 30.

Does that seem like?

That's pretty big.

And I was working on the logo with Scott FEMA, who I work with on the apparel and one of my runners and and the logo I had was XXX.

1:43:10

And we decided that's probably not the message that we want to go with.

Oh, that's good.

But I thought it, I thought it looked really cool.

Super Bowl got away with it, but that one kind of came and went a little bit more.

So we'll have to come up with something, but 4040 will be a big deal.

1:43:27

Yeah.

And doing this so long, it doesn't seem like things change.

But always when you look back, you see, OK, here's what I'm doing better than I did.

Here's what I'm focusing on more now that seems to be having an impact with people's performance.

So it'll be fun to see over the next six years between now and 40.

1:43:46

OK, what can we do?

What are we doing better?

How can I reach more people but keep it personal without needing more hours in the day, Those kind of things.

How can this continue to evolve?

That'll that'll be fun to see what what happens.

1:44:02

Will you ever write a book?

I don't know.

I I've written a couple of things.

I at one point I wrote the training manual for the for the country's largest marathon training program.

That was team of training at the time.

OK.

My title was What Phidipity should have known.

1:44:17

I found that humorous.

If you would have read my manual, maybe you wouldn't have died at the end of his marathon.

So I I've done that.

I've written enough that I think I'm OK at it.

For a guy who my English English honors thesis in high school was C at the top, the evolution of training to where the 10K runners are going to take over the marathon, which ended up being how it worked out.

1:44:42

So I have an interest in that.

But I hear more and more people saying I don't read books, so it's like, I don't know.

Well, I read books, Yeah, so.

Well, you and I are people.

People read books, Yeah.

So maybe, yeah, but there might be a better way to do it, whether that's maybe it's more of an audio thing or audio visual thing, right?

1:45:01

I mean, we've got these bad ass documentaries coming out of indie now.

Yeah, so.

Yeah.

So I'm very interested in doing that because I would like to be able to give the 17 exceptions to whatever I just said and to explain that fully and why we do this.

1:45:17

I do weekly videos that go over what most people are doing.

Not everybody's doing the same workouts, but here's what most people are doing, so I'll talk about those.

And in my head, I'm managing giving good information with the attention span of an adult.

Yep.

1:45:33

So I know that the clock is ticking here, so I I try to do that, but most of the things I could go a lot longer on and I would like to have a format to do that.

Maybe that's a book.

Yeah, cool.

Well, thank you for taking the time to do this.

1:45:48

You're very welcome.

It's so nice to thank.

You for making it fun.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm glad it was fun.

All right, well, and thanks to everybody who has listened to this and and happy running.

If you enjoyed this Sandy Boy Productions podcast again.

Be sure to share, rate and review.

1:46:04

Looking forward to seeing what we can do in 2025.

Cheers.