Finish Lines & Milestones: Episode 92

January 24, 2025

Here's a link to listen to this week's episode.

Guest: Joe Hardin @trail_tortise_running

Show Notes:

Joe Hardin⁠ is an ultra-marathoner, writer for ⁠RunTriBike⁠, fellow podcast host (⁠Beyond the Finish Line⁠) and lives in Indiana.
During this episode, sponsored by ⁠Athlete Bouquets⁠, we talk about:
His sobriety birthday and how his family celebrates it more than his actual birthday
The impact the pandemic had on him as he was newly sober
His upbringing that was divided between his military father and single mom
When he tried to join the military and follow in his dad’s footsteps but he couldn’t because he has asthma
His short stint in college after high school and finding a job in trade
Cassie, the mother of his kids and woman he’s married twice
The night he put down his last drink
How he got into woodworking and started his business, ⁠HT Hardwood Designs⁠
His weight-loss journey that started the day after his first sobriety birthday
The first race he ever did at 38 years old, a Thanksgiving 5K, the Gravy Chase
Finding his way to the⁠ Prairie on Fire ⁠backyard ultra and running his first ultra marathon (⁠link to the John Kuhn film⁠)
The weirdest thing he’s eaten during an ultra marathon
His ⁠IT100 miler⁠ DNF (did not finish) and PSA to wear bug spray to help avoid getting Lyme disease
Hallucinating during an ultra and what he thought he saw (it’s so random)
⁠RunTriBike⁠ and Joe’s friendship with the founders, ⁠Aum Gandhi ⁠(⁠EP12⁠) and ⁠Jason Bahamundi⁠

This is a⁠ SandyBoy Productions⁠ podcast.

Episode Transcript:

0:00

This is a Sandy Boy Productions podcast.

Welcome to Finish Lines and Milestones, a podcast that celebrates the everyday runner.

I'm your host, Ali Brettnacher.

Whether you're a season marathoner, half marathoner, ultra marathoner, prefer shorter distances or just getting started, if you run, you are a runner.

0:22

And every runner has a story.

Join me each week as I share these stories and we cross finish lines and celebrate milestones together.

This episode is brought to you by Barilla Protein Plus Pasta.

Barilla wants to help you stay active this winter with its great tasting protein Plus pasta.

0:40

I don't know if you know this about me, but I am 1/4 Italian and my family actually used to have a sauce cook off every summer.

The matalone family sauce cook off and so pasta is near and dear to my heart and over this holiday break I had my mom pick up some Barilla protein plus pasta when we had sauce with my aunt who won the sauce cook off the most.

1:01

The additional protein comes from lentils, pea protein and chickpeas, which actually makes it a great source of fiber as well.

And everybody loved it.

My picky kids, my meat and potatoes husband who doesn't like to try anything different.

Everyone said it tasted great.

1:17

It's the pasta taste you love with the energy you want.

And Lord knows we all needed extra energy to power through the holiday break.

So why not grab the yellow Barilla box of pasta when you're at the grocery to get a little bit more protein and additional energy?

Especially as someone who is a runner, adding additional protein into my diet is always great, so it's the perfect way to do that.

1:38

And Speaking of running, as we often do on this podcast, put your energy to the test and take on Barilla's Protein Plus Pasta's Winter Energy Challenge this February on the Strava Fitness app It's free.

All you need to do is complete 10 days of movement for your Barilla Protein Plus pasta.

1:55

Reward terms and conditions apply.

Hello and welcome to episode 92.

This is Allie and I'm so sick of this cold.

2:11

You guys, I know you are all sick of this cold, especially the ones who are like, shut up Allie, you have a treadmill.

So, but I really am sick of it because I love my treadmill so much, especially watching Netflix on my treadmill, but I would much rather be outside.

So it's like a heat wave here in Carmel, IN where I am.

2:31

It's like 30° today.

So it's been negative and we've had two hour delays and all of that.

So excited to have normal winter temperatures, which is funny.

And now I'm within a month of my first race of the year, which will be the Rock'n'roll Las Vegas Half Marathon.

2:49

You've probably heard me say that if you've been listening.

So I'm super pumped about that.

Let me know if you happen to be going because I would love to meet up.

I'm going with my dad.

And we've done it.

I've done it two other times and he's done it more than that maybe a handful of other times.

Vegas is his happy place.

3:06

So I can't wait.

It's getting closer and closer so still trying to decide what I'm going to try to do, but we'll just wait and see kind of how I'm feeling around that time because right now, knock on wood, my family has finally gotten back to full health again after the holiday flu sickness we acquired.

3:23

So first race of the year, then I am looking to March.

The Holiday Park Trail Run has an event every year in Holiday Park, which is in Indianapolis and it's for on Friday they have a kids run on the 14th and on the 15th they have a five mile hike or run.

3:40

And I did it last year and it was so fun.

It felt like I was not even running in Indiana, it was so beautiful.

So I'm looking forward to doing at least something there this year.

And then April's Carmel and then May is the mini.

So if you're not local, check out.

3:56

These events are incredible, especially the indie mini and Carmel Marathon.

Well worth traveling in town for.

I am planning an event on May 2nd, which is the Friday before the Indie Mini with Lindsay Hyne, who is the host of the I'll Have Another Podcast with Lindsay Hyne and the founder of the Podcast Network that I am now a part of.

4:17

With this show, we are planning a big event, so if you're local or you're running the Indie Mini, be sure to just save the date.

It'll be from 4:00 to 7:00-ish at the Bottle Works Hotel.

And during this episode, I talked to my guest Joe Harden about the indie mini, trying to get him and his wife Cassie to sign up with Ainsley's Angels, the organization that I will be running with again this year.

4:39

I did it for the first time last year and said to my friend Ashley, this is the only way I'm doing the mini from now on.

So we're doing it again this year, hopefully with the same young girl that we were able to push last year.

Her name is Hope, so really excited for that and it'll be here before we know it.

4:56

So I originally met Joe Harden via Instagram, even though he is local to the Indianapolis running scene and we've chatted back and forth over I don't know how long it's been now, for quite a while it feels like, and finally got him on the show.

5:12

So I got a chance to meet Joe in person and he's just amazing.

I realized after the fact as I was editing this episode that there's big, huge pieces of his life that he's gone through that we just didn't even talk about.

Like how he has survived pancreatitis a couple of times and a lung infection once.

5:30

I mean, just crazy stuff that we didn't even cover because he's been through a lot.

And he is now sober.

He's been sober for five years.

You'll hear all about his sobriety journey and the work that he's passionate about that he continues to do to help that community and then how he got into the world of trail and ultra running.

5:47

So I really hope that you enjoy this conversation with Joe Harden.

Hello, Joe Harden, welcome.

Hey, how's it going?

Good.

I got you out of your comfort zone, out of your basement podcast studio.

That's right.

Yeah.

It's pretty wild being on this.

6:03

I don't get to be on this side of mic very much, so this is a different experience.

And hey, we actually got 2 podcast hosts together.

Yeah, in the same spot, so.

It's amazing.

Amazing how that works.

I've missed this.

I actually haven't done an in person interview since before the holidays so it's been a while, so thanks for helping me kick off the new year.

6:22

Yeah, thanks for having me.

I'm super stoked.

I feel like it's dry January for a lot of people, and this will be one of the last episodes in the month.

So for anybody who is doing that, good job, finish it out.

But you have been celebrating your own sobriety for how long now, Joe?

6:39

Five years.

December 1st, actually.

Wow.

So just over five years it's been been wild.

That's incredible.

Well, congratulations on that.

That's a huge accomplishment.

So December 1st, what significance does that have?

Well, that's my sobriety birthday.

6:55

I like to.

It's basically the day of my rebirth.

It's something that we actually celebrate more in my family.

My sobriety birthday is something we celebrate more than my regular birthday.

I mean, I'll be 43 years old.

I we don't care.

About birthdays.

Really.

Yeah, I feel that.

And I can go through, you know, kind of what led up to that date or whatever, but that was the the last time I took a drink and I knew that had to be my last drink.

7:21

I never, they always call it like a moment of clarity.

It's like kind of like a cliche thing to say and sobriety, but I've never had a moment.

It just struck me.

I like that this this is it.

This has to be the last day.

I I knew I ran out of rock bottoms.

I didn't have any anywhere else to go a bottom.

7:39

So I quit drinking December 1st to the 19 and I I know I won't go back.

I mean, it's, it's, it's hard to say that because it's, I mean, sobriety is one day at a time.

It's one minute at a time when you're in, you know, when you're really, really deep and battling addiction.

7:56

But I know that I will never pick up a drink or do drugs ever again.

Wow.

How was the pandemic for you?

Because you're like, OK, December 1st, I'm done.

And then this, I mean, really hard time for a lot of people.

How?

How did that impact you mentally?

I mean, it was terrible because you know, I, they, everything was shut down, obviously so and rehabs were shut down.

8:16

And honestly, so, I mean, I've been down the rehab Rd. before and it just didn't work for me.

And I didn't know where else to go.

I didn't really know about like zoom innings.

Like there's a awesome community of like online recovery groups, you know, like we're talking a bit like in the green room, you know, before we start recording recovery.

8:33

Roadrunners is like a great group.

There's tons of tons of great resources so that I didn't know about at the time.

So I really, I really struggled.

I it was about a year of I mean, it's very uncertain.

I mean, I didn't know, like I said, one minute time, how if I was going to make it to the end of the day without taking a drink or using pills, pills was my, you know, like a Poly addiction, you know, I had multiple things that I would pick up, but drugs, you know, alcohol and pharmaceuticals were kind of my go to.

9:03

But so I just didn't know.

It was very uncertain.

I mean, now there's like so many wonderful online communities.

I mean, I mean, whatever you're into, it's like it's, there's woodworkers in recovery.

There's like all kinds of cool groups specific to what you're into.

It doesn't just have to be faith-based.

9:20

You know, I, I did some faith-based stuff, like a A and like some steps and.

And those are great, but it just wasn't necessarily like, maybe my, like a good fit for me and nothing against those.

I mean, everyone has to take their own path.

Yeah.

And kind of find their people in recovery too.

So.

9:35

Yeah, it was really tough, I guess.

Yeah.

Gosh.

So.

So did you find, did you end up just finding a community at that time?

And were you alone at that time separated from your family, or were you still with your family?

Yeah, so kind of in the in the middle of my addiction, like, you know, I had like these different tiers.

9:54

I would like I would drink and like go on benders and I'd quit because like, you know, I quit because of the birth of my first son.

Then I would just go right back into it.

I would quit because of, you know, I quit because of the birth of my daughter Natalie.

I would quit.

I would quit for various reasons, probation or whatever.

10:10

I just always kept going back.

And then I went through a divorce for my kids mom.

You know, that was something like that made me kind of clean up a little bit.

There was like a lot of various things that made me quit and I was actually going through, you know, at the time I was going getting sober and going through my second divorce, which was, you know, wild in the world shut down.

10:31

So it's just, yeah, I was just alone basically.

So, you know, I had to find a lot of outlets to get through that.

So yeah, it was like, you know, that's a long kind of a Long story short to that answer, but yeah, it was like it was tough.

And I kind of had to find a couple of groups that really spoke to me and and it wasn't running when I first got started getting sober, but woodworking was another big one.

10:52

And then I ended up finding a really great community and Lebanon called Life's Journey Recovery Center got out to them.

Boone County doesn't have a lot of resources for addiction recovery.

And they are a shining example of community and everyone's welcome.

11:08

It's it's beautiful with their building right there and I live in Indiana.

So.

So woodworking came before running.

Woodworking became before running we're.

Going to talk about more.

I want to because I want to really talk about woodworking because I find it very fascinating.

But when did you first start drinking?

11:24

Was it at a young age?

Are you from Indiana?

Kind of take us back a little.

Bit yeah, I wish I could remember the first time I took a drink.

I was very, very young.

So I'm not originally from Indiana.

I was born in Chicago, IL.

My dad taught at the Great Lakes Military Academy.

11:41

Oh, wow.

And right before he moved on to Virginia, my parents split up.

So we came to Zionsville IN eventually Lebanon.

I and I bounced back and forth between my childhood home in Lebanon and then my dad's on the East Coast.

That's so that's how I got here, I guess.

11:56

But so started drinking.

I, I would say I started pretty young.

My, my mom was actually married again to a guy that made alcohol accessible to me at a young age.

This is something I haven't really ever talked about before.

And that was kind of acceptable as a kid.

12:13

So I started drinking, probably, I would say I had a problem drinking by high school.

Certainly like like, yeah, probably, definitely.

Drug use was pretty prevalent, and certainly alcohol when I could get my hands on it.

But yeah, did what do you mean accessible?

12:29

Did he offer it to you or is just in the house and so you could?

In the house and offered it to me.

You know, we would go on like camping trips and stuff like that.

And so that's kind of I just when you find something like like alcohol, it just like, you know, I'm, I'm an awkward kid and I always have been in it.

12:47

Like alcohol has made me feel the way I wanted people to like how I wanted them to perceive me.

So I think that's what kind of what started that, you know, I could, I could be like charming and like cool.

And you know, I didn't like stutter, you know, whatever.

So immediately, right away I knew like looking back at it now, I knew I had a drinking problem the first drink I picked up and it just, it just kept snowballing for the next, you know, 30 years, I guess, but.

13:14

Wow, all through and then all through high school.

Where did you go to high school around here?

Was it Lebanon?

Is.

The Lebanon High School.

Yeah, Lebanon.

High school, so did you?

Were you able to be athletic and in athletics during high school while you were still like drinking and on in drugs?

13:30

No, honestly, I played football for a couple of seasons, but I started hanging out with the bad, like the bad kids, Yeah.

So I wasn't really athletic ever at all in my life, which is pretty wild.

It is pretty wild thinking about now that you've run in the triple digits.

So yeah, I never really was into sports or anything and I never really felt like I fit in with with like the like the sports crowd.

13:49

But while considering what I do for a past time now.

Right right now that it like consumes your life.

Did your family have any history of addiction?

And then how did your parents?

No.

And how did they react during this point in your life?

14:05

My understanding is, so I wasn't like really close to my dad.

He was, he was deployed a lot.

And like I said, we were kind of bouncing back and forth.

But yeah, I mean, yeah, my dad had a drinking problem for sure.

It was done right in front of me.

And and there was some drug use that was done in front of me as a kid too.

You know, I don't want to say who, but it is almost like kind of the norm to me.

14:24

Drug use and alcohol.

Yeah, which is really unfortunate.

So yeah, to me it seemed normal, I guess so.

I mean, it makes sense that I would keep, you know, I'm, I'm.

I do what I see, you know, I guess as you're growing up, but.

And what about your mom?

Yeah, I mean, I love my mother.

14:42

It's taken a a lot, like quite a few years to repair that.

But you know, there was some drug use on her and in front of me as a kid too.

That probably shouldn't have happened, but we're repairing that, you know?

That's good.

Does she still live around here?

Yeah, she still lives, still in the room, just I'm think I'm actually a mile .27 from my house.

15:02

I run past her house right all the time.

Yeah, that's that's that's good to have her close, especially as you are continuing to mend that relationship.

What branch of military was your dad?

The Navy.

OK.

And did you ever pursue military?

Service at all?

15:17

Yeah, my dad was like hot and heavy.

Let me join the military and this is going to it's going to be even crazier, right?

Sound more like Wilder.

I couldn't do in the military because I have asthma like I still do.

I still have that asthma.

My God.

And I have asthma.

I'm an ultra runner with asthma.

15:33

I carry an inhaler in my little flip belt thing with me whenever I run.

Whenever I run ultras.

I don't have to use it a lot, but I carry it with me a.

Lot.

Yeah.

OK.

Asthma.

So you couldn't join the military?

I couldn't join the military because of that.

Was that good for you?

Were you happy about that or was it something that you wanted?

15:50

I think I was just doing it, just being kind of estranged from my dad.

I did a lot of stuff to get his approval, you know.

So I think I just, I think I just followed that path to try to get his approval.

But unfortunately, I don't know if it was a good thing or a bad thing because like I said, you touched on something and my dad had a drinking problem and kind of his like running joke was well, it's because of the Navy and you know, whatever.

16:11

So it may have not been good for him.

Maybe, I don't know, maybe it would have been a good thing for me to to travel and, you know, get out of my normal perimeter and get away from some of that stuff.

But who knows?

I mean, while the I speculate, I guess how that would have went, but right.

So did you take?

16:28

What path did you take after high school?

After high school, I went to college for about a year and a half, very unsuccessfully.

It's.

Amazing that you were able to go to college, frankly.

I mean, if you're drinking and doing drugs, you must just be naturally smart enough to get into a college.

16:46

Yeah, I think I squeaked by just enough to get in, but that, I mean, it wasn't like I was stellar.

Now, college didn't go well for me at all.

I basically majored in like hard partying.

I went from like hard partying to hard partying, and unfortunately that didn't quite pan out.

17:02

As you know, it's something I'm working, still working on now.

But oh, that's cool.

Yeah.

Why?

Why not wait till you're in your 40s to go back to school?

Yeah.

So which which college?

I went to Vincent's University.

OK, yeah.

So at what point were you?

Did you end up getting kicked out or did you decide to leave?

17:21

I think it, I think I just just academic probation.

I, I wasn't showing up to classes like especially like the ATMI was way too hungover to show up to AM classes when I was in college.

There's no way I was going to make it to those things.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't know how I survived college, frankly.

17:36

Sorry, Mom and dad, who listen and generously paid for my education.

I did.

I mean, I certainly did get an education as well, but there was a lot of that hard partying.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

So, OK, so then what did you do after you weren't in college anymore?

17:53

Were you able to just get, you know, jobs here and there or what did that look like?

Yeah, I took some jobs here and there.

I did.

I did eventually fall into some skilled trade, which was nice.

I was, I was a machinist, like tool and dine a machinist for quite a few years.

18:10

OK, So I didn't do too bad.

What does that mean?

Like I would do a lot of like heavy industrial repair, like you know, if something breaks down like a bearing areas warm like a part or something, I would like basically remake that at a metal is what basically what my job was, but kind of on a large scale, like heavy industrial stuff like powder plant stuff.

18:29

So I did fortunately fall into a trade for quite a while after my monumentous failure at college.

The first the first go around.

Yeah.

And so at what point did you meet your first wife?

I met Cassie in 2000 4.

18:46

So at what point in your life was that?

I was still, let's see, I was just out of college.

I was working, I think I was just kind of working a regular gig there.

But it was still kind of in the early days of problem drinking too, Like I wasn't getting too out of control.

19:01

But actually, you know, I remember How I Met Cassie now.

It was like such a such a weird, it's like, it's so weird how the universe puts you in front of people when you really need to find them.

So my dad actually passed away in 2000, that first week of August in 2004.

19:18

And I took some time off, ended up going to a party.

And there was my wife, my future wife, Cassie.

I was just like, hey, who is that?

Like, I guess you should have the same thing.

And we were together for, you know, still many, many years.

Like I said, we split up for a little bit.

19:34

So that's How I Met Cassie.

It was kind of meant to be, I guess.

And then where?

When were your kids born?

Hunter, my 6th?

Well, yeah, he'll be 17 in May, Was born in May of 2008.

And then Natalie, I joke.

19:49

Basically it's like if you just copy and pasted me and it made her a different gender.

That's basically who my daughter is 2012 it's.

So great that she has the example in you now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

As I think about what you, you know, dealt with growing up and not having that had to be.

20:09

Yeah, that's hard.

And so Cassie was your first wife.

So you and Cassie broke up for a time, and then you married somebody else.

Yeah, so me and Cassie split.

I mean, I don't blame her.

20:24

So I wasn't always, you know, a good person.

I mean, I've really had to work very, very hard to be who I am now.

Me in active addiction, I was terrible.

You know, I would run around and stay out all night and, you know, getting arrested or getting in fights or just sometimes be self-destructive.

20:45

She dealt with a lot of stuff.

She was basically raising another kid until I got sober.

But so I don't blame her.

And we we split and I remarried almost immediately to someone who was also very heavily addicted to a lot of things.

I was already in bad shape anyways.

21:03

And that was basically like pouring gasoline on a fire.

And then it became an inferno.

So it was like kind of off to the races when I remarried in my second marriage.

So yeah, I've worked really, really hard at not being that person.

You know, it's not every day is my best day, but it's something I'll be something I'll work on for the rest of my life, just trying to be who I am now and not be who I used to be.

21:27

I was broken.

It's almost like my own ultra distance trying to keep sober and stay sober.

It's that's like, that's what I always say.

Sobriety is a is an ultra, not a spirit.

You know I'm always going to be working on this, but.

Yeah, so December 1st, 2019 when you were like OK my last drink, I'm done.

21:46

This is it.

So then you parted ways from your now ex-wife because did she end up getting sober at the same time?

Did she end up continuing down?

Yeah, So when I get when I got sober, we were kind of in the middle of separating, OK.

22:03

And I don't, I mean, I hope she got sober.

I mean, I, I wish everybody the best.

It doesn't matter how her relationship ended.

I always wish the best for everybody.

We were already splitting and that I knew I couldn't be in that situation.

With, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I could see.

I didn't know if that was the reason.

22:19

Like you're like, hey, I need to do this.

And she's like, I'm not going to do that.

And then that would clearly be hard, but you decided to do that anyway.

Yeah, yeah.

And that just kind of solidified my choice.

I mean, I had my kids, you know, on weekends, but I wasn't there for them, you know, I wasn't present.

22:36

I might have physically been there.

Yeah.

And I just really wanted to work on that.

And that's the best decision I ever made.

You know, it's just I'm just so glad I made that decision.

I don't know, I just looked back.

I'm like, I'm so glad I put I put that down.

I mean, it could have I could have easily picked up a drink again or, you know, another lower tab or like a Xanax or something.

22:56

And I'm just so glad that I and it was so hard, hard fought too.

I'm just always so I'm so thankful that we kept sober.

I guess is.

Yeah, well, it's really impressive, like because you've said that traditional rehab and AA wasn't your jam.

Yeah, I don't know why.

23:12

I just didn't really mesh well with that program.

And nothing against.

I mean, I'll still like, I'll still kind of work the steps a little bit.

I mean, every day I kind of wake up and do a little principal inventory, like practice gratitude.

That's something I have to do every single day.

So maybe it's just I've always kind of rebelled against like normal things, I guess.

23:30

So I just kind of have to do things my own way.

And I think, you know, I picked some other paths that just kind of aligned with who I am now and as a sober person.

And you found your way back to Cassie.

Yeah, so.

That's crazy.

I found my way back to we were married March, March 31st, 2 years ago actually.

23:47

We'll have a anniversary coming up.

That's the greatest day.

Like, and, and there's a lot of things I can say about Cassie when I like, like when I was getting sober, I mean, we weren't even married anymore and she would help me.

Like she was worried like she would help me.

And I can tell you an example of the night that I actually put down my last drink.

24:05

This speaks to Cassie as a human.

So that night I put down my drink, I had really been on a hard Bender.

I think I started drinking like 7:00 in the morning.

That morning.

I was just an absolute mess.

And I decided to go to a bar like 30 minutes from my house.

Please don't drink and drive.

I just have to say that over and over again.

24:23

I can't believe I got away without, I somehow did all that without ever seriously hurting somebody.

Or so I go to a bar.

I'm just like an absolute mess, right?

I'm you know, I'm raising kind of a, I'm like raising a ruckus in this bar, right?

And bouncers are trying to kick me out.

24:39

And I was just like, no, this ain't happening.

Kind of like that joke.

I don't know how many they were going to use but I knew who I was going to took the basically 3 bouncers pick me up and shove me head 1st through a door out in the parking lot.

And I take off in my truck and I'm driving down this like County Road.

24:55

And I don't know if how they blacked out a little bit or you know, I was basically seeing double and I actually drove my truck off into a ditch and I woke up.

I kind of came to and I was thinking about a lot of things and one of them was this is kind of hard to talk about but maybe it would be better off if I didn't go on living anymore.

25:16

And that's not the first time I had that thought.

It's like 3:00 in the morning, and I don't know who to turn to.

And I was honestly, like I said, I'm kind of afraid of what decision I'm going to make.

So at 3:00 in the morning, I call Cassie.

We're divorced.

You know, she has no reason to care for me to pick up that, pick up the phone.

25:32

And she picks up the phone at 3:00 in the morning and talks to me.

And that just meant so much to me.

I don't know how to repair for that, but I'm going to do the best I can to make it right and treat her right till it's forever.

25:48

So, you know, after that we were, we really, really worked hard on that relationship.

And she had no reason to trust me when we first started.

Like we kind of dated and, you know, just hung out with friends and she had absolutely no reason to trust me.

And I remember one day we decided to remake it official.

26:03

It's weird, like your girlfriend, you know, we were married at one point.

And I remember one time I, I was going to go somewhere for a whole day.

You know, I always like to do like little inventories with my wife.

Like, are you happy?

Like, I don't know.

I just like to, I like to have little benchmarks of happiness in our marriage, something we ever talked about.

26:20

Like, do you trust me?

Like she's like 100%.

I just, I just meant so much to me because I gave her every reason I did not trust me before.

And I know that, you know, I made a lot of changes, but to me that just always speaks to me of who she is, of the person.

She had no reason to pick up that phone that night.

26:36

And I don't know what I would have done if she didn't pick up the phone.

I was in pretty bad shape.

So, yeah, I guess that's more of a tribute to Kathy.

It's been, she's been a a guiding light, my sobriety and everything that I do going forward.

Yeah.

Well, props to her.

26:53

Yeah, for.

For that that had couldn't have been easy and but man, how amazing that you have made this five year 30 years.

I didn't know I was going to make it a day.

I mean, it's to me, like I looked back at five years and it seems like it's been a whole different lifetime too, which is wild to me.

27:13

It feels like I've been sober for 20.

Like I said, I was so uncertain about day-to-day stuff when I was in active addiction is to think about five years.

Yeah.

It's just I don't sometimes I just.

It's like you're in the middle of something.

You just don't realize how awesome it is.

And that's why why gratitude has been such a big word for me this year because I'm just like, I really need to be practicing gratitude.

27:32

Like I, I get to wake up sober.

I get to wake up in a bed, like my kids are in the same house as me.

I get to actually like engage with them and understand what they're saying.

I'm not just worried about my next drink or, you know, if I'm going to run out of my prescription, you know, whatever.

27:49

You don't realize how simple they are until you're as bad off as you know, some addicts are just the normal day-to-day stuff.

Is this.

Sometimes it's seems boring, but it's just like so amazing that yeah, I don't know how else to say that, but it's just, I'm just so thankful, I guess.

28:05

Yeah, well, and you're thankful even when they fight in the background of your podcast.

Recording you're like.

Remind yourself, you're like this, this is great.

They're here.

I'm with them.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, so you get sober, you're back with Cassie, and where, where the heck does woodworking and running?

28:25

How did those come into play?

It's such a it's.

From the trade school type stuff like when you were like a machinist that kind of got you into woodworking or how did that come to be?

So my grandpa was actually a pretty well known woodworker in Zionsville, IN.

Like everybody bought stuff from this guy.

Interesting.

28:41

My grandpa Bill Stum, so I grew up in his woodshot basically woodworking ties into sobriety.

So I'm going through everything kind of ties in my sobriety, right?

And that's like the most amazing common theme here.

But so I'm really, really new in sobriety.

Maybe like 2 days in a sobriety and I went through a painful, painful withdrawals.

29:02

I was detaining really, really hot, like physically painful, especially from benzodiazepine.

Like that was just, I don't know how to explain it just feels like it feels like your whole body is your skin's crawling.

Like I just went through some really, really bad detox and I didn't want to like, well, I couldn't, I didn't know I could go where I could go.

29:22

It's in the height of the pandemic too.

But like like you mentioned.

Yeah.

So I call my aunt and uncle.

My my aunt and uncle basically raised me kind of with my mom.

I'm, you know, my mom's a single mom.

So they don't have, they don't have kids.

So I was kind of their son.

So I, I, I run out to my aunt and uncle's wood shop.

29:40

My aunt Sandy is like probably one of the best woodturners that I know.

I go out to their shop.

I'm really going through it like, you know, I'm looking at a second divorce and you know, I'm going through all this addiction withdrawal.

And my aunt Sandy like, hands me this block of wood and like, and she's like, here, this is how you make like a bowl.

29:58

So and like, and I just remember like, like that day, I remember like the smell of the sawdust and that they took me back to my grandpa's wood shop.

It's just like like cathartic and like just, I'm just like working with my hands and I made this like bowl.

It's like this real.

30:13

I still have the bowl.

It's like it's actually at my desk at work.

It's just a simple bowl, but it's just like, wow, I actually made something.

And you know, like in a dictionary was worried about next drink.

You know, you're worried about so many things and you're, and I just remember being so present in the moment and that's something I don't ever really get to experience.

30:33

And I was just like, wow, like I, I don't know, I just like gave me like a little like a sense of confidence like that I can actually make something with my hands, you know, And that's kind of, I think I immediately went to like a Lowe's or something I bought like a wood lathe.

And that's been, I started a business around it, you know, like it's turned into like engraving and like furniture making.

30:53

And it's kind of went like everything I do, it's like I didn't dip my toe in.

I just went full in.

So now I've got like a wood shop and all this stuff too.

So that's kind of where woodworking restarted for me because it was something like that.

I remember, I remember I loved as a kid.

31:08

So yeah, it's become just as big of a deal to me as running has been, but.

Yeah.

And your business is HT Hardwoods?

Yeah, HT hardwood designs.

Where does HT come in?

What is that?

I used to like I used to have like an Etsy page called Harden Turns OK because I was doing wood.

31:25

Turns.

Oh, right.

OK Harden.

Right.

Yeah.

Makes sense?

But I was like, well, I do so much more than just wood turning now because I, you know, I started dabbling like furniture making and I and I like to do stuff like carving dobles or like coffee scoops, like, and I started, you know, like I said, furniture.

31:43

And then the race award stuff took off.

Yeah, it was so cool.

I had, I never even thought about doing that, you know, which is like, it's just one of those weird things.

I was the right place at the right time.

I was like, I was running on a trail next to somebody for a few miles.

31:59

And they're, they were the race director or something in that we, you know, you talk about everything when you're running, you know, so I think woodworking came up and then like a few months later I get hit up.

Would you ever make like race awards?

And I was like, sure.

Like, yeah.

So, so I kind of wanted to rebrand a little bit.

32:16

And I was like, well, I wanted to keep the HT and I already had like a cool logo.

And so I just kept it kind of an homage to what it used to be.

But, you know, we're, I'm trying to grow the business, you know, where we got a lot of laser engraving and CNC stuff, but yeah.

And you have a normal job.

32:32

And I have a normal job, yeah.

That blows my mind, yeah.

What's your day job?

I'm a design engineer, but I don't have an engineering degree.

So this is where I kind of fell into design engineering engineer work.

You know, as a machinist, I always wanted, I always had to make stuff, but I got tired of waiting on someone else to like design stuff for me.

32:49

So I taught myself how to do CAD and stuff like that.

And then I started working where I work now and I already have like a good base for design work and I work, I work in a research and development and you know, I just teach myself how to do I, you know, I got tired of waiting on someone to make something or design something.

33:06

So I just learned to do it myself, you know?

So you mentioned wood turning.

I could probably ask you a million questions about all this wood stuff.

My father-in-law, he just retired not long ago and he's now essentially has a wood shop in his garage.

And so he started to kind of get into this stuff, which he'd done, I think, previously, but now that he's not working full time, has gotten back into it.

33:29

Anyway.

I don't know what wood, what is wood turning?

I'm like picturing you making wood almost like you make a, like a pottery wheel.

Is that a fair assessment?

Yeah, that's, that's basically what it is.

You just take a pottery wheel and turn, you know, turn it horizontally, OK.

And you just like you can check up on it, like fixture it and you got you actually have like chisels, like hand chisels, skew chisels, whatever.

33:50

And you just make you like a bowl.

Like I do a little like high end pins too, which is so I don't do like a ton of them.

I'll just do.

Those pens like writing.

Yeah, like writing pens.

I've done some like fountain pens, like some really, really cool, like calligraphy pens and stuff like that.

Yeah.

I don't know how I got into pen making, but that's just something I do for fun.

34:08

I don't really sell those very much.

But you have to like when you take your hobby and make it a business, like you still have to have something that's fun about it.

Amen.

I know I struggle.

I love learning new things and so, but I also have to like focus because it's hard.

You're like, OK, this is where I can make money for my business.

34:26

I need to focus on that, even though this part might be the most fun.

So always a a tricky balance.

So you've got your day job, you've got woodworking your business and then you're an ultra runner.

So we've gone I don't know how many minutes so far without talking about running, which, which is by design, I was asking the questions.

34:47

But I think what makes runners so interesting is that we each have, you know, our own unique story.

And so then running comes into play where.

See, like I said, like I said, like I fell into it like so well, it seems like I've been doing this my whole life, which is weird and I've only been running for like 3 years.

35:04

I think that's.

Yeah, it's crazy.

So how I fell into it?

So first sobriety birthday, like I said, we celebrate, we go out to eat and next to where we go to eat, there's a gym that my wife goes to.

She's been going there for like 10 years, probably more.

35:21

And she was like, hey, for your first sobriety birthday, you should, we should get you a gym membership.

At the time, my wife was working for Boone County Sheriff's Department, so she got like a cool little discount and stuff.

So like that gave me a nice little nudge to get in, get in the door.

So we go in there, I sign up and I think immediately the next morning I go in at like 5:00 AM.

35:41

Yeah.

You don't go, you go all in.

You're like, OK.

Yeah, yeah.

Like I said, I never dip toes.

It's just like from zero to a. 100 You can say that because it's a good.

Pun now.

Oh, yeah, that's a great pun.

Thank you.

And I talk about this a lot, you know, and I know we're, I know eventually we'll probably touch on this, but I was at my heaviest.

36:00

I quit.

I quit weighing myself at like 320 lbs. 320 lbs.

I think I, I think actually, I think 318 was like the last one of the last doctor visits I went.

I mean, I, I think I might even got heavier after that because I just gave up.

36:16

Like I don't know at one point.

I kind of forgot about this part, too.

Yeah, right.

That part where you're just.

Yeah, I guess if you've never really been athletic, you haven't worked out, you know, you're drinking.

Yeah.

But so I was like ashamed, I was like kind of ashamed to work out in front of people, which is unfortunate.

36:34

So I would just like walk in the treadmill.

And I started feel like just, I remember just the act of quit drinking.

I lost like 40 lbs.

But so I started, I started walking like 30 minutes, you know, 10 minutes, whatever it was.

And I remember one day I put together like a decent one mile jog and I was just like, wow, I have never done that outside of like punishment, you know, in gym class or something.

36:58

And I remember that same day I was walking out.

My timelines might be weird here, but I remember I, I think I walked out.

This might have been the following year, but I remember I walked out of the gym and there was like a Turkey trot flyer and I was just like, Oh, cool.

Like there's one here in Lebanon, the gravy chase, which is like, I, I still do that every single year.

37:19

That's cool.

Someone made a joke at the last one, like, oh, the, the ultra runner comes to the five KS.

He's like, this is my favorite thing, right?

Like I I just it's still the scariest distance too.

I would agree with that actually.

And I like, I think I took a picture of it and like I go back home and I was like, hey, we should do this 5K.

37:37

Is that like a crazy goal?

And I'm like, let's do it.

So that was my first time I ever ran trained for anything.

And I just absolutely fell in love with training.

Like that's still my favorite thing.

I love like the day, the race day is like this cool little cherry on top.

37:57

It's like the victory lap.

I just, I love training for stuff so much.

Like I always have to keep something on my calendar.

I I know eventually we're going to get to all that, but yeah.

But yeah, so that's my very first introduction, like working out ever in my life.

It wasn't like a gym class or like the presidential fitness thing at school or something at 30, you know, 38 years old or something, whatever I was.

38:21

Yeah, you.

So that first 5K, did you and Cassie run the whole time together?

Yeah, we ran the whole time together and that and that that was just the most amazing experience.

Like and I it gave me the same feeling that woodworking does.

I just like, wow, I did something like and that's still to me is like a huge benchmark in my journey.

38:42

I just, I couldn't, I could never have like, you know, five years ago me imagine that I would ever do something like a 5K and just that's still probably one of the greatest feelings that I I can think of right now.

You know, I mean, there's a lot of other things, but as far as that goes.

38:58

But yeah, that first one.

That first one is like so special to me.

Like I said, I'll I'll if I'll do everything in my power not to miss that 5K.

Yeah, did you get a medal?

Yeah, I I think I don't know if we get a medal because they they raised I'm.

Trying to remember which ones give medals which because I know some of them.

Don't I know you get a cool shirt because like me and my daughter, like a lot of times my daughter will or my daughter like my son will do it with us and like the shirts are amazing.

39:20

Like the long sleeve soft style shirts.

I'm a sucker for those shirts.

I don't know if they do a medal at that one because it's, I think 100% of that money goes to the Boys and Girls Club of, of Indiana, which is like a great 'cause to my kid, my kids weren't there like, so, OK, so anything to support that.

39:36

Cause right, absolutely did were your kids at the 1st 5K You did.

They didn't do that one, but since then.

Since then they've been doing it with you.

That's cool.

Now are they into sports and stuff?

My son played basketball.

Like COVID kind of messed everything up for my kids in sports, but my son was like very athletic, like almost like almost naturally gifts.

39:55

He was a really good pitcher too in baseball.

But it's unfortunate that, like, COVID kind of shut down a lot of sports.

Yeah, Yeah, I know.

And then it like takes, you know, a year and a half of their, you know, growing at this like, pivotal point in their life.

Such a weird thing.

Formative years in the world.

40:11

The world is shut down.

Right.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, so you go from this 5K to 100 miles, how are we going to talk about all that in between?

Because how cool is that?

It's it speaks to like we talked about earlier, it's like zero to 100 literally after the 5K.

40:32

Gosh, I wish I remember what we did after that.

I feel like I did A10 Ki think I did the Lions Club 10K in Zionsville, which is an awesome race too.

I haven't been back to that one.

I should do that one again.

But I think right around that time the indie mini something, you know, once you start looking for stuff, it's like in your algorithms, right?

40:49

I remember seeing the indie mini and I that was the first double distance thing that me and my wife actually did that together too.

And I didn't do it last year.

That's kind of a bummer, but I was training for specific things.

I remember I was on the trail, the date of the indie mini and I could hear it happening.

41:07

So that was like a cool like full circle thing.

But so me and my wife did that.

They need many together that year, which what an amazing race you've done it like.

So it's just like so special.

Like the whole city's out there.

Like there's like cool bands, like people are just like cheering you on like this.

41:24

That is just a whole vibe in itself.

And when you come up over that bridge, I just like wow.

Yeah, yeah, a lot of people.

So yeah, we did the any mini together and at Full disclosure, I guess I need to come out.

I've never done a marathon.

OK.

So wildest I'm scared to death of the of a marathon, right?

41:43

I keep thinking.

Even a trail marathon.

Well, I guess I have done.

No, I did like an 18 Miller after that, but I have never done actual official marathon distance.

OK.

I think after listening to your podcast as long as I have, I think I'm gonna have to do the monumental.

41:59

Oh yeah, yes.

So I think you've converted me to I'm so scared of the marathon distance, but because, I mean, you have to run fast for these things like.

We don't.

Have to.

It's just yourself that makes you feel like you do.

42:14

That's the reason the 5K is so scary, because you're like, well I got to run fast, I only have to run 3 miles.

So, yeah, so we did the indie mini and then I don't know how I found Prairie on Fire.

So my first ultra distance was not a trail marathon or not a trail ultra.

42:31

It was Prairie on Fire.

And I don't know how I found it, but I the algorithm.

Gotcha.

Yeah, the algorithm got me and wow.

And what a day that was.

TJ puts on an amazing event, Amazing guy, too.

I don't know how that came.

I just signed up for it.

I didn't know what I was doing after that.

42:48

After that point, I had ran the Okie Doke 18 mile up north, my friends up in Valparaiso, Trailblazer running, great group of people.

They have great events too.

If anybody, it's worth a 2 hour drive from this, from from here.

And I think I was just kind of looking to maybe just looking to set a PR.

43:05

I think maybe that's why I signed up for Prairie on Fire.

I didn't know anything.

I don't know anybody you know about nutrition, water.

I just showed up to this thing alone.

I remember I didn't have a headlamp.

And it like that first loop, you had to have a headlamp.

I think it's preferred that you do.

And I'm like in my car in the dark and I remember this guy came up to me with a headlamp.

43:25

He's just like, I was like where am I going?

What am I doing?

He's just like, follow me.

Quick reminder, this podcast is also brought to you by Athlete Bouquets.

Celebrate finish lines and milestones of the people you love with runner gifts from athletebouquets.com.

43:44

And you know, it starts I'm, you know, I'm, I'm thinking it's going to be a day.

I'm just going, I'm having my earbuds in and, and I'm just going to do my own thing.

And I kept running into the same two people.

One of them you had on the podcast, Cameron Ballser.

Shout out to Cam and my buddy Eric, who I still run with constantly trained.

44:02

We I, I think Strada said we ran like, I don't know, like 20 something hours to get like we ran, we ran.

Yeah, we run a lot to we do a lot of ultras together and the furthest I've been at 18 miles.

So I keep, I kept like running into Cam and Eric on, you know, the same place in the loop and we're chit chatting and I told him at the time I had never ran more than 18 miles.

44:23

And I remember a Cam and Eric like we're going to get you to your marathon distance today.

And I remember we were getting close and I was like, I'm not feeling too half bad.

You know, I hit like an 18 mile wall that I always kind of like now I learned that I always hit by the time I never experienced that.

And I remember a Cam and Eric was like, you're going to get over this and it's, you're going to come back.

44:42

And then I remember I hit marathon distance and I and I think I remember both, both Cam and Eric were just like, we're going to get, we're making an ultra runner today.

So my first ultra was actually side by side with Cameron and my buddy Eric, who I'm good friends with.

That was my first 50K.

44:59

And yeah.

What year would that have been?

20/22/22 no 2023 sorry because I did I did 2024 Prairie but.

Yeah.

And so for people who aren't familiar, well they should go listen to TJ's episode TJ Daily.

I can't remember what episode number he is but but just give him the breakdown of what Prairie on Fire is.

45:18

So it's a backyard ultra.

I can't remember what it's like if it's a bronze ticket to big dog's backyard.

So it's it's a 4.167 miles on the hour every hour till last person stops.

And this year it went to gosh, yeah, 100 and something which is yuck wild.

45:38

And you just do that to the last person stands and that back in October, Harvey Lewis ran 450 miles at 1:00.

So it can go for many, many days.

Yeah, it's such an interesting concept.

And it's so cool.

45:53

It's like every time I, I've run a few backyards now and I, I still talk to at least one or two people from each one.

It's like you kind of get like a cool run club vibe because it's not, it's you're not really competing against anybody.

It's you're competing against yourself and everybody is helping each other because I mean, you want to see how far you can take it.

46:12

So the idea is that, you know, you lift everybody up and I just always look kind of love those formats.

It's just so cool that and you get to meet people like Cam and my buddy Eric and TJ and like all these amazing people that run.

Like, I think backyard runners are just like, that's a totally different breed.

46:28

But yeah, it's tough too.

I mean.

So that first one you show up, you don't know what you're getting yourself into.

Do you have any food or fuel at all?

I think I had like a little bit, I think OK, but I didn't really know about like gels or.

I'm a picture, like everybody.

46:43

There's got coolers full of who knows what, like anything you could want.

Yeah, like luckily I remember I was calling my mom because they were going to come up.

I was like, bring me Gatorade.

Bring me.

Yeah.

I didn't think about this.

We bring.

Yeah, I was like bring me cookies.

Bring me cuz I didn't know about any of this.

46:59

I think I just had like a couple gallons of water.

I had some like Gatorade packets.

Like I didn't know about Tailwind or like I can't believe that the only reason I think I made it 50K was because of the support of like like MTC and like everybody who shows up to the Prairie and like Prairie and fire and all these like all these die card events.

47:17

But.

Yeah, and we've got to give John Coon a shout out for the film that he just made, the documentary about Prairie on Fire.

It's so cool.

I'll link it here.

And I mean, it really gives you a better picture and like a window into.

I mean, I really want to do it too.

47:33

It's.

Such a.

Cool event.

My friend Christy D helps TJ and she's a what I would classify myself as.

Almost is like I'm a Roadrunner.

I'm an uptight, got my Garmin, you know, kind of a runner right now.

But I'm so interested in the world of trail and ultra.

47:52

And it's like she's made her, she's figured out how to kind of do both.

Like she, you know, you couldn't call her really one or the other.

I think she still prefers the road because of her, you know, FOMO and Prairie on Fire.

But you know, at least kind of ultra world.

48:08

Anyway.

I just find it so fascinating.

And from what the outside looking in, yeah, you see this vibe of just really cool, laid back people.

Yeah, I've got to get myself to one of those.

Yeah, it's fantastic.

Yeah.

I mean, you kind of get like a little trail vibe too because the back half of that course is trail.

48:28

OK.

And you get like, and it's like, what I love about it is, is you get Rd. runners and trail runners together, you know, and, and you know, like I run a lot of Rd. because I have to train that way.

So it's like, it's like, so cool getting kind of both sides of it in one.

48:44

Yeah.

And you just learned there's no difference.

Like it's just a terrain.

There's a difference.

Everybody's so amazing.

And like in the running community, like maybe with the thing that separates us is like terrain.

But yeah, so you kind of get both, the best of both worlds.

Yeah, it's it's just a really cool community.

49:00

I'll be there at some.

I just got to pick and choose what I do, and it's so hard to pick and choose because we're lucky in, you know, our Indianapolis proper, our community.

We've got a lot of great races, a lot of great people.

I want to do everything all the.

49:16

Time.

Me too.

My ultra sign up wish list is far beyond my means.

I can only imagine so.

So after you hit that 50K mark, did you go?

Did you do 50 miles?

I did a 50 kilometer Oh, Jackson County, OK.

49:35

And that's what oh man, that was like, that's when I really, you know, I still struggle with like imposter syndrome.

Like, you know, I ran ultra distance, but when I completed Jackson County 50, Ki was like, well, OK, now I'm now I feel like a trail runner, right?

Because it was like, here's the start line, here's the finish line.

49:50

This is the distance versus yeah, yeah, I could see how.

OK, so then you're like, I'm a real ultra runner now.

And and then it's like, and then you learn the community is just as amazing there.

Like I like I said, I still talk to people from my first fifty.

I mean, I've become some pretty good friends with Josh Johnson, the race director of Jackson County.

50:07

And there's just so you meet so many amazing people age stations on the trail.

And like it was a big learning experience.

I got like, and I think that's when I really got a really up close glimpse at least how amazing everybody is and like how awesome age station snacks are at trail races like.

50:23

That's what I'm always so interested in.

I, I mean, I always ask, OK, so like tell me about what you eat because then that's where you can really get me to come do a trail race is if you'd tell me about the good food.

I was thinking someone asked me like it's like, what's like the weirdest thing you've eaten in an ultra?

50:38

I was like, I have literally ate a piece of pizza while I've been running on a trail like at 2 like 2:00 AM.

I'm like barreling down this hill with my headlamp, eating like a piece of cheese pizza or something.

I mean, yeah, sign me up for that.

It'll be totally game.

Love pizza.

50:55

Yeah yeah.

My friend Ashley Haynes has been trying to get me to to go trail Stephanie Woods as well.

They took me out, as you know, to Eagle Creek for kind of my inaugural trail run.

I also realized I did the holiday the holiday park trail run.

They have a little trail run every year in mid March.

51:13

So I've done that.

So I've like I've, I said a teeny bit, although when Ashley and Stephanie took me, it was, it was snowing.

So then I felt really like a badass because I'm like, look at me now.

I'm a trail runner that runs in the snow.

OK.

Yeah, that's the next.

Like, I love, I love snow running.

51:30

It's like you said, it makes you feel like you just like conquered it.

You're like, you're right.

I made it through all that like.

Yeah, so I heard I listened to your episode on, Oh gosh, the Tribe of Runners podcast, the name of it, And you said that your first trail run was 13 miles.

51:46

Tell me about how that happened.

Yeah, I forgot.

I guess I did.

I did the the Midnight Summer Trail race.

OK, Eagle Creek, I totally forgot.

About that.

There you go.

OK.

So that's so that was your first trail?

That was my that would have been my first like sub ultra trail run.

52:02

OK, that's an amazing event too.

I miss, that's actually the first exposure I had to Indiana Trail Runners Association because I ran with this guy in the back.

He's just like you have to join the ITRA and like you know, you're going to meet great people like so shout out to Indian Trail Runners.

They like I joined their Tuesday night group now when I can.

52:20

And so that's been like such an amazing community and I love being a part of it so.

Well, and people think Indiana trails, I mean, trails don't have don't have to equal like mountains, right?

It just has to be a, you know, a trail in the woods.

We've got a lot of that here, surprisingly.

52:36

Oh yeah, and I mean, I haven't traveled a whole lot with my trail running, and my wanderlust is getting very big now that I'm an ultra runner.

Right.

And your friends we'll talk about.

Yeah, running my bike too, but.

Indiana has absolute gems for trails.

52:52

Like, I mean like, like I, I love Eagle Creek.

It's like 20 minutes from my house.

I love the West side of Eagle Creek.

That's where I think that's where.

Wherever it was on my map, I we parked by the bear statue.

Yeah.

The bear, Yeah, that's my favorite trail, too.

The bear I love.

Like, it's just such a gem of a trail.

53:08

It's like I've been running.

I just don't think I can ever get tired of that trail.

And you've got like, go to like, Morgan Monroe Forest.

It doesn't seem like you're on this planet when you're running Morgan Monroe Forest or like Yellow Wood or there's like so many great trails, like I mean, too many to name right now.

Yeah, I know nothing too.

53:24

You're like saying I'm like, I'm just like.

And it's like such a slept on state for trail running.

I think it's starting to, it's starting to build up, you know, like, and I think it'd be really cool to see where new trail running goes because we have so many amazing places here.

Everyone thinks West Coast or East Coast, but right, like I think we're the heart of it right here.

53:42

It's just, I think it's just going to take a while for us to build it.

But yeah, it's getting there.

Well like couple the nice cool vibe of trail runners with Hoosier hospitality.

It's like you got.

Yourself an amazing vibe and community.

And I always kind of joke that I think why it like, what makes Indiana Trail running so special is we don't have, like, these big outing backs.

54:02

I mean, we're getting ready to have a first outing back in Indiana, the Knobstone 50.

But we're like forced to run in these big circles.

So you see everybody.

You see this all the time.

Yeah.

So it's like I'll run into my front of the pack friends I'll run into depending on how I feel like I'm usually back to the pack guy, but or mid pack, whatever, I'll run into my mid pack friends or party pace where I'm at.

54:23

So it's like you, you run into everybody like so it's kind of cool to see like elite runners too, like so and then you find out that everyone it doesn't matter where you are in that lineup and everyone just amazing people.

So, so that's, I think that's what makes this area so special because of those those big loops are running out there.

54:44

Yeah, let's talk about DNF.

Have you had a DNF before A?

DNFDI T100 Back in October I threw a little pity party for a little bit, but now I'm over.

But I got to get that.

I got to get, I don't know what it is about the 100 mile distance.

I just, I can't get it out of my brain like.

55:01

So I'm going again for 100 Miller and on May 31st the Mohican 100.

But I have had one DNF the IT 100 and it was such a bummer.

But I mean, what can you do?

Except for I don't, I guess I didn't look at it as like a failure at the time.

55:17

I was like, I can't believe that I DNF.

Do you as soon as you DNF, it's like I went back to my tent and I was like, I could have kept going.

What if I would have did this?

So it's just like you just have to like get that should have, could have, would have out of the way and just immediately start looking for the lesson.

55:32

So I that's like basically what I do.

I'm just like, let's build on what I learned and not what I did wrong.

Like let's build on what I did right and not wrong and.

For you, Yeah, it's easy to harp on.

The yeah, the wrong so one DNF so far.

I'm sure we'll have more.

I mean, as I, I mean, that's just part of it, right?

I mean, you don't know how.

55:48

I mean, you know, it doesn't matter what terrain.

You don't know how you're going to feel that morning.

So, and you're trying to tackle 100 miles.

Like for me, I just can't, I still can't wrap my head around the distance as a, as a marathoner.

Like, I think, oh, I ran a marathon, you know, woo Hoo.

56:05

And then you just understand this world of ultras and people are running 200 miles and you're just like, OK, well, people are nuts.

Tell us a little bit about your race experience.

So what at what mile did you stop?

And what made it for you where you're like, OK, I know that I'm going to need to DNF.

56:24

So I just want to do like a small PSA about wearing bug spray.

Unfortunately, I was diagnosed with Lyme disease this last.

So you just keep adding to the list, asthma, Lyme disease, OK.

So and I and they put you on like this really hardcore, like regiment of like doxycycline or something.

56:45

I don't know what it was.

And so I was already not really.

So I can't I come off of that and I think my immune system is already kind of compromised anyways because that medication yeah.

So I wake up the morning of the IT 100 just like absolutely hacking up a lung.

So I was eating cough drops while running the IT 100 like about every 20 minutes.

57:04

OK.

We'll pop in a cough drop when you probably did you deep down I should know that you I mean that's looking back, you might be like well.

Looking back now, I'm just like, dude, like.

Like come on, I I get it though.

So I was like, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm already, you know, I did all this training and like, I'm already here.

57:23

I've got a pacer coming like, so I was like, let's just, let's just run and see how you feel and what's, what's amazing.

And after about 25 miles, I started, I feel pretty good, like some somehow, you know, relatively speaking.

And I made, I had a pretty good run until about mile 50 and I just really started and it started getting like I started losing my ability like control, like my body temperature, I guess 'cause I started getting kind of cold.

57:51

And then there was just so many things went wrong.

And you mentioned the bug spray, what was, did you not wear a bug spray or did you wear?

That so I just wanted to say wear a bug spray.

So I, I suffered with, I unfortunately had some tick bites and was diagnosed with Lyme disease and I'm bad about wearing bug spray and I picked a lot of ticks off of me this year.

58:09

So that's just like something I want to tell everybody right now because it's a.

Is it a special kind of bug spray that you wear to fight against ticks?

I've been using like this, like kind of like green bug.

I wish I could rid of the name of that stuff, but.

Interesting, I never really thought about that aspect of it.

Yeah.

58:24

Like, I don't know, it must have just been like a really bad year for ticks this year.

But yeah, but so coming off that medication, not really feeling very good as it is, but I decided why not go for it, right?

Why not try to run 100 miles when you're like hacking up a lung?

Yeah, why not?

Because you can try, you know.

58:40

Hey, here we go.

And did Cassie, where's Cassie in all this ultra running stuff?

Did she then say, hey, you do this now I'm part of the crew kind of a thing?

Yeah, so like I said, I always, I always take it that extra step, like, you know, I always go way too far.

She she has decided not to run ultra distance and I don't blame her.

58:59

It's it's pretty wild.

Yeah, right.

Well yeah, 2 ultra runners in a family would be.

We've been considering doing the indie mini this year, but I don't know if we're too late to sign up for.

That you're definitely not, so you can sign up probably till the day before.

So you should definitely do the indie mini this year.

59:14

Yeah, because I really want to do it and it'd be cool to if we could train together again and like all that stuff.

So yeah, I can't get her on.

I'm going to get her on the trail one day.

I'm working very I'm chipping away slowly.

Yeah, let me know how that goes.

I mean, my husband and I, he ran his first marathon with me in Chicago, 2011 maybe call it.

59:37

And he'd never run more than 5 miles before he started training with me.

And that's when I knew he was the one because he trained for a marathon and ran a marathon with me.

But then after that, he was kind of like, this is your thing?

Because I just never kind of slowed down after that.

And he'll do the mini usually.

59:55

But oh cool, yeah, I'm trying to get him to come back and just love running.

Yeah, I'm hoping that maybe if we do the mini it'll get, it'll get her fired back.

Up.

Yeah.

So you made it 50 miles.

You're starting to feel bad.

Body temperature's all out of whack.

Yeah, I was just, I just got really cold and it's starting to get dark.

1:00:14

And I, I had ran the 1st 50 with my buddy Eric, who I met at Prairie and he, you know, he was done.

I like did a change of clothes or whatever and I head back out and I was just like, I really wish I would have planned like race day logistics so much better.

1:00:30

So I don't know where my pacer is and it got dark and I don't usually go negative for some reason, but I just got so negative at the IT 100.

I was just like, you know, I started feeling just a little crappy.

I'm just like, if you're feeling this crappy now think about how you're going.

To feel.

Oh, right of.

1:00:46

Course 100K so.

Yeah.

And my pace started slowing down and my, my pace started slowing down, started getting painful.

And I basically like death marched from like mile 52 to like 67.

And I was and I and all the things I didn't take care of, like I was like, you know, if I feel this crappy now tomorrow I'm going to feel terrible.

1:01:07

I have to drive my car back from here.

Like all the all the stuff that you can't do anything about when you're 6 miles away from your car, right?

Like it's just so weird thing looking back now, like how I was worried about all this stuff and I was like, you know, if I drop out, my like my buddy Josh is coming up to pace me at like 2:00 AM and I'm just like, if you drop out before he even gets to pace you, he drove all this way.

1:01:30

So I just like all these things that I couldn't do anything about.

And at mile 67, there was like a kind of like a thunderstorm rolling into I was.

Trying to remember what the weather was like.

Yeah, it was like cold and like lightning.

And I had like this little gas station poncho in my pocket.

1:01:46

And I was like, I don't want to get stuck in this weather.

And, and I don't like, I think I left.

I usually don't listen to music a lot when I run, especially like an ultra because I don't, I want to be kind of cognizant of the people around me.

And I was like, this is the time when I would normally like through my emergency playlist and I left my earbuds back and just so many things went bad and I just got in my head and I came up on like this fire road and there's like a ham radio operator there.

1:02:12

And I got back, I got behind my nutrition too.

Like I think, you know, it's like when you, when you want to quit something you like start writing your story about why you quit.

You know, So I was like putting the pieces together of why it's OK to quit well before I quit.

So it's like it's already kind of like pre written that I was going to quit.

1:02:29

I came up on this Fire Rd. ham radio, got operators there and just like where's the next aid station?

And he's just like 2 miles down that trail, just like I'm done.

He's like, all right, you know, called my bid.

I think my bid number's like 68 or something.

Called my bid.

And right as soon as I DNF, my pacer shows up and text me.

1:02:47

I was like, but you know, it is what it is.

Right, it is what it is and that's still a distance PR for you.

Yeah, that was a distance PR, but up until that point it only ran 60 five mile at the Momo foe, which is a really tough race.

1:03:03

So I I think I PR D by, you know, 2 miles right.

So so it's like looking back, how awesome is that?

I mean.

Yeah.

So the 65 that is that 100K.

Yeah, I think the Momo, like, you know, trail runs are never really like right on the money, right?

Another difference I suppose.

1:03:18

Between and at the Momo foe I I was like basically running while I was sleeping and I like took a weird turn on like a fire Rd. and got like a mile down the road and like one of the volunteers like are you OK?

And it's like, yeah, why?

They're just like you're not supposed to be here.

1:03:35

I was like, Oh no.

So I ended up getting like an extra 2 miles on the.

OK, Cheese.

Yeah.

I I remember like when I was like 2 miles away from the finish line, I was like if I wouldn't have taken that turn I would be done right now.

Yeah, yeah.

1:03:51

Oh my gosh.

Well, and then like people like me hear about all the, you know, hallucinating or things like that.

You've experienced that, right?

I've.

Experienced that.

What's that like?

I kind of knew immediately it wasn't real, but so the momofo started like 7:00 at night and I so I think I just, I think I actually went to work for half that day or something and I was nervous the night before.

1:04:16

So by the time, by the time it's like 4:00 in the morning, I think I'd been up for, you know, well, like 24 hours or so at that point.

And I lost my belt light and I had the, I had this like really crappy headlamp at the moment.

1:04:31

So I since bought better optics.

So I lost like my depth reception only having my headlamp.

So I there's like a bunch of weird shadows and like, and I, this is going to sound silly because I get made fun of for all the time because I posted about it, which I don't know if I should have, but I could have swore I saw the Gordon's fisherman hugging an oak tree very briefly, which is weird, but I think like my yellow headlamp made everything kind of yellow.

1:04:59

OK.

And I couldn't tell you the last time I've eaten fish sticks.

OK, That's what it's from.

I was like, Gordon, I can picture it, but I don't know.

Yeah, OK.

Fish sticks.

I was just like.

Mascot.

Is like, all right, that wasn't really happening, but so that's.

A really funny one that is a guy like it.

1:05:15

I think it's funny as I can see why people are like hey yeah, you just craving fish sticks man or like yeah, that's wild.

Is that the only time it's happened to you?

I guess that's I mean, so you IT 100 you were just miserable and.

1:05:30

Sick, just miserable and sick not.

Hallucinating.

Yeah, well, I just feel like at least from where I sit and I don't know what to say to somebody who DNFS.

So Lindsay Welty, do you know Lindsay?

She's Lindsay endures on Instagram and she just attempted 100 Miller down in Florida, the long haul 100 and she DNF D.

1:05:50

And so I was like, what do I I don't even know what to say to her because it just sucks.

You put in all this preparation, all this effort, you run 67 freaking miles, you know, so how are you?

How's your mindset now looking to you know, May late May this year?

1:06:08

I feel really good, you know, like I had, I kind of had.

So I, you know, I host a podcast as, as you know, I had, I did an interview a while back with someone.

They said something that really struck me.

So this is like, this has actually changed my mindset a lot about DNS and he's like, how awesome was it that you were even able to show up at the starting?

1:06:28

Line right.

And I was just like, wow.

I was like, I never thought about that.

Like, you know, he said something along that line.

He's like, so there's people out there that wishes they could show up at that start line that wish they had the opportunity.

And that shifted, like my mind shifted 180° right then and there.

1:06:45

I was like, oh, I never thought about like.

And that goes back to kind of like my recurring things being gratitude.

I was like, I should just be grateful that I had the opportunity to DNF the IT 100, you know, like I didn't always have, like I didn't always my body wouldn't wasn't always prepared for ADNF at 67 miles.

1:07:04

So I think it's shifted to being grateful.

Like weirdly enough, it's like a failure makes me feel grateful.

But I mean, that's really the only thing I can like, distill down from that whole experience is like, wow, I'm just grateful I got to be there, right?

Like.

That's interesting because it's one of the things I almost said to Lindsay was like, you made it to the start line like but then I thought that, you know, in the moment didn't necessarily because she's like, well, I you know, probably it's still upset she didn't get to the finish line, but it's like, but I've thought that way where it's like, I get to do this.

1:07:36

I'm so lucky, like I can run a mile.

Like, a lot of people can't even do that right?

And you're attempting A-100 and it's like, yeah, that's a really cool opportunity.

Yeah, it's amazing.

Yeah.

So how do you, how are you training for that?

For Mohican or.

1:07:51

For yeah, for the Mohican.

And where is that?

It's in the Mohican Forest and it's like Loudonville, OH.

It's like in the middle of Ohio.

Random occurrence.

How I got signed up for that because I hadn't ever even heard of it.

It's not an ultra sign up or anything.

OK.

1:08:08

A mutual friend of mine named David who met Cam on the road, Somehow they got talking about sobriety and Cam says, hey, my buddy Joe on is a sober runner.

And this guy reaches out to me on Instagram, says, hey, I shared some miles with Cam and he told me about you and me and him to talk off and on.

1:08:27

So like, hey, like I don't even know this David, you know, other than Instagram and texting now, like, hey, we should do 100 miles together.

Like, yeah, why not?

Like so that's how I found out about the Mohican.

And we've been kind of using each other for like accountability.

That's cool.

So training is a lot of miles A.

Lot of miles.

What's the longest mile like?

1:08:43

What's the longest run you do at like in one?

Gum Well, I like to build my training around races.

So for the IT100I kind of used grind on the grid backyard.

I did 50 miles to train for MO Mofo 100K Gosh, I did a lot of I think I did like six or seven ultras last year.

1:09:04

And then I used like Prairie on fires, kind of like a like that was unfortunately Prairie didn't go that well this year, but I kind of use that as like another bench stone.

Like how are you feeling?

My intention was to go 50 to 100K Prairie on fire and I started having some foot pain, which is a bummer.

1:09:22

So I had to check out like mile 44 around that time.

But and then I did, I'd like to do time stuff too.

So I did like the Pinta mind games 24 hour to get used to overnight because my I struggle at overnights for some reason.

It like there's like this weird window like two or three AM where I just like that's when like everything hits the fan for me for some reason.

1:09:44

Yeah.

So it's like I've been trying to get over that and I think I finally broke that at Jackson County.

I just quit paying attention to the time too but.

Yeah, right.

You're like, you don't want to set yourself up for that mind game of oh, now it's 2:00.

But I was like, hey, I actually made it past the 2:00 AM hour and I feel fine.

1:10:00

So like, it was just like an arbitrary number that I had in my head.

So I think my longest run would have been 100K to get ready for IT, 100 this.

I don't have like a bunch of races this year.

Like, I don't know what to sign up for.

There's so many awesome races.

And I've become friends with a lot of race directors.

1:10:16

I mean, I do work for them.

So it's like, I want to support everybody's race, but also I don't want to Max out my credit cards, right.

Yeah, yeah, just take all my money.

Ultra sign up.

Right.

Yeah, Gosh.

But I've built, I've built, I've been kind of building a training plan for Mohican.

1:10:31

I hope to throw some cool events in the middle of that.

Maybe I'd like to do some 24 hours stuff if I can.

May is coming up quick, so I don't really know what I've got, but probably do grind on grid backyard.

I'd like to do 100K at that this year.

I shouldn't say I don't know anything because now I've talked to enough ultra runners locally that I should know more of the events, but not being immersed in that and I'm more like the road racing events are more on my radar.

1:10:54

Yeah, wow.

Well, I'll be cheering for you.

Yeah, I'm pretty fired up, Yeah.

Yeah, just to even.

I can't even imagine I'm.

Going to get that buckle this.

Time.

Oh yeah, you are.

Yeah.

Or the next time.

As many times as it takes.

Whatever it takes.

I mean, isn't that, like I said, there's no guarantees.

Yeah.

So now we've got to talk about your crazy ass friend Om.

1:11:13

It was actually episode 12 of this podcast.

He was early in this podcast because I remember meeting Om virtually.

I've never met him in person.

And just being like, whoa, this dude is nuts.

He ran an ultra marathon on Mount Everest, like by the, you know, And I'm like, that's insane.

1:11:30

I need to know more about this.

And he's also partners now with Jason, who and they own Run Try Bike.

Yeah, so cool.

So how now?

You're in their podcast network.

You're, you know, friends with them.

What's Jason's last name?

Bahumandi.

1:11:45

Bahumandi, Jason Bahumandi, those guys are so cool.

They're doing, you guys are all doing such cool stuff with the podcast network and all those things.

How?

How did you end up working with them?

Wow, so I think I was just scrolling through Instagram and I remember seeing a post by run try bike and it said like, you know, I said something to the fact like, you know, like every like everyone has a place of the starting line.

1:12:08

It's kind of like their mantra, like, you know, everybody and everybody like not to get in that comparison trap or whatever, but it's like that spoke to me because I'm you know, I'm not like I don't look like a runner or whatever, whatever that means.

And I was just like, well, you know, I'm a runner, you know, and it was just so cool to hear that.

1:12:28

Like if you run, you're a runner and I know that's one of your like, I just love that.

And I was just like, wow, like I'm one of these people.

And I think immediately there was a response and I don't, I didn't know who it was at the time because it was three run Tri bike.

And then they sent me like a link for like a 30 minute interview.

1:12:46

And it was Ohm and who I've become really great friends with Jason and Ohm and Lori, who's kind of like a silent partner, but also now hosts her own podcast called Caffeinated Coaching.

They're just like the most amazing people you could ever meet.

And it's weird to be so close to someone people so far away because I consider them, but you know, best friends now.

1:13:06

Me and home have gotten really tight.

But either way, we did like a 30 minute interview and I just saw something like immediately when you know, when you meet somebody, it's like you met, you known him your whole life.

You know me and I'm just clicked.

I think he responded back like the next days, like, Hey, how would you feel about being like the cover athlete for the January issue?

1:13:24

I was just like, sure, like this is wild, right?

And a couple days later the newsletter comes out.

I'm just like, wow, I can't believe I'm on the cover of the newsletter.

They reached out to me and they're like, Hey, we, we've been reading some of your blog posts.

I, I, I do a lot of journaling and blog posts on my own, like mostly about woodworking and sobriety and you know, mostly non running related stuff.

1:13:46

I feel like sometimes it's nice about that.

I talk about running unprompted constantly.

So it's like nice to talk about something other than running.

What's that like?

Yeah, yeah.

It's tough.

It all eventually leads back to running.

But they're like, how would you like to write for us?

1:14:02

I'm like, OK, yeah, sure.

Like.

And like I said, it just sounded so to me.

It's so wild to anybody who cared what I had to say or even take the time to read anything I wrote.

But I wrote a, you know, a little bit about my sobriety right right off the bat.

And I actually had some people reach out and like, wow, that article is so amazing.

1:14:19

And and that was just such a surreal experience.

And I hope that something I wrote someday will help somebody.

But you know, and I wrote for them for probably four or five months.

And then I get this e-mail that says, hey, we're launching a podcast.

They already had their podcast Fireside Chats and Fiery Embers, but they're like, we want to start a like that.

1:14:39

We have a vision.

We want to start a podcast network and we interview the everyday athlete.

And I'm just like, I love this concept, man.

I just like, like I said, I just jumped right in.

It's I'm still, you know, pretty new to podcasting, but it's just going back to my common theme.

1:14:56

It's like, once I went in, I dove right in and I've been podcasting for them since June.

And you couldn't meet, you couldn't meet a better group of people that are curating such a beautiful community too.

I mean, I mean, I, I think, I think podcasts with like elite athletes are cool.

1:15:12

And I, and I love that I love elite athletes.

I love trail running.

I love the back of the pack.

I really love hearing like those like back of the pack, like mid pack, like this, like the human stories behind all endurance sports.

I think they're amazing.

1:15:28

I mean, my podcast is mostly centered on trail running.

Your podcast is, is it beyond the finish line?

Beyond the finish line.

I resonate so much with it too, because that's why, you know, kind of why I started my own podcast was I would just kept meeting all these runners with these crazy ass stories and you're like, wow, everybody has some kind of story.

1:15:47

You know, some of them are crazier than others or more traumatic than others.

And but everybody does.

And so, yeah, that's why I say too, like if you run, you're a runner because people will sit down and be like, well, I'm not really a runner and I'm like, what what is?

Please tell me what a runner is then.

1:16:03

So yeah, props to to you guys and that community.

And and I have to thank Ohm and Jason are the reason that I'm part of Lindsay Hines podcast network.

Now.

I really never thought that my show could be part of a broader community.

1:16:19

And her and I've been close for, you know, well, not close, but like, we've been friends for a while, but I never really thought that I was good enough, you know.

So how many episodes in are you?

20 on my show and then we do another one called What's in your earbuds where yeah, yeah, I think we're like at like 13 for that and we just we don't even really talk we will talk about running, but I would always ask people in my interview like what they're listening to yeah, yeah and that would like consume most of the podcast so.

1:16:49

Did you start?

Not about music then.

Start talking about music yeah, and I and I also, like I had mentioned before, I Co host recovery Rd. runners podcast too.

So that's just kind of that's more of just like a passion project.

I mean be on the finish line.

That's my baby and it's a passion project.

1:17:05

But you know, we have some, you know, big dreams and big goals for the network, you know, and the everyday athlete podcast network.

I guess I would.

Be.

Yeah, you need to say that.

I need to say that amazing shows.

Yeah, it's really cool.

I love celebrating.

Just, I mean, not just the everyday runner, the everyday runner because it's hard and you're doing this in the midst of like normal jobs.

1:17:27

To your point, elite athletes are great.

They're amazing at what they do.

That's but that's their job really.

And so I just find it so interesting to talk to people who have normal jobs and are juggling all the things like that you've listed off.

It's just wild, wild to me.

It's so amazing.

1:17:44

And especially after all you've you've been through to get to that point.

So have you made plans to meet Om and Jason in person?

Will you drag them to Indiana?

I am really really.

Trying to get them to yeah.

Yeah, I'm like, I know we're, I'm supposed to go out there in July.

1:18:00

I can't wait to meet them in real life.

We're going to do the kind of like a retreat, which would be really cool.

I think we're just going to run around the California mountain mountains.

And so I'm really, really fired up about that.

And I've been trying to drag.

I almost got Jason here to pace me for something, but they were moving like they move, they moved around like Seattle or maybe not Seattle, Portland and like they're making that shift to LA.

1:18:22

So it was pretty tough to coordinate with Jason at the time, but I'm going to get in Indiana.

I think I've talked about how how much how awesome the Midwest running scene is.

I think I finally converted into.

Yeah, well, I think when I talked to he had heard of the IT 100.

1:18:38

I think I'd have to go back and listen to our interview, but I think he had at least heard of something in this area.

And I was like, yeah, you got to come do it.

Well now he really has to come do it because now one of your best running friends is out here and I just want to tag along and be able to meet him so.

Yeah, amazing, amazing people, special to both of them, all three of them.

1:18:58

Everyone in that community is amazing.

We have so many people that support us and like share our stuff and like, like and comic.

And you know how that is like it's so huge, like just to get like a show review or like, so it's not just though, it's not just us.

It's like we couldn't do without that without these people that are listening.

1:19:16

So and we've become so tight.

It's just so cool seeing this community rebuilding.

It's not huge, but it's just like amazing.

The response from this network, it's been incredible.

It's almost unbelievable.

Yeah, I love it so much.

Yeah, I do too.

1:19:31

Yeah, obviously look at us, we're like, we just love it.

We love it running.

Gosh.

Well, now Speaking of music, this is a good segue to the end of the podcast questions for me.

So I ask everybody two questions and the first one is your favorite mantra.

1:19:46

I guess it's kind of three questions and or song.

OK, man, song is so tough because I'm like like such like a music nerd.

It depends.

So my music choices, my my Spotify is all over the place.

It could be like Wu Tang clan to like Highland, some country music or like bluegrass or something.

1:20:06

So lately I've been really into this song called Black Creek by Brent Cobb and I don't know any of his other work, but that's been like my for someone who has a music, a music podcast.

I don't listen to a lot of music while I trail run.

Because it's like I'm.

Surprised you do it all.

Most trail runners I would say that I no don't.

1:20:21

Yeah, I mean like rarely, but sometimes if I'm like not really having a good day, I'll throw throw something in.

But so that's been like kind of like my theme song because it's like it just kind of encompasses the sound of how I feel about trail running.

And there's like some bluegrass stuff that I really get into when I'm trail running, which is weird.

I'll like Roadrun to like Wu Tang Clan, like Mob Deep, and then I'll listen to like Bluegrass and the.

1:20:42

Like country, Yeah.

Depends on where I'm at too.

Yeah.

In my mantra has it's a cliche mantra, but God, I love this so much.

It's like sometimes if I'm really up against it, same thing with like practicing gratitude.

I'm just like, I get to I, you know, you'll be like, I remember being at Jackson County this year.

1:21:00

That was a tough, tough race, you know, and I was just like battling up this hill and I just remember like, you know, you get to do this, you get to climb this hill.

So that's been so huge to me.

And this one's been kind of silly, but I remember I was just like, you are an effing mountain goat, like you're going to get this hill.

1:21:19

So I just kept repeating that to myself.

That was like an on the spot mantra, but I get to do this has always been my mantra.

I know that's a lot of people's mantras, but I love it.

I made a temporary tattoo of it now because I love it so much.

That little mantra has got me so far.

Yeah, I just have to.

1:21:35

I have to remind myself of that all the time.

Yeah.

So lucky feel, really.

Absolutely lucky.

Yeah.

Are you a tattoo guy?

Like a real tattoo?

Do you have tattoos?

I'm actually like, outside of this, I'm like covered in them.

Okay, yeah, because I can't tell.

1:21:51

I feel like I knew that you had some because I've seen pictures where you have like a T-shirt on.

Mountain goat would be a cool tattoo.

Do you have one?

I'm going to have to get one.

Yeah, you will.

I think I'll get one.

Yeah.

I've never actually told anybody that I said that, but so.

Yeah, there you go.

Perfect.

1:22:06

Can't wait to see it.

And then we know your next finish line or milestone because it's the Mohican 100 and you're going to have races sprinkled in.

Yeah.

And then six years December.

What else?

What else are you?

That's it.

I mean, I said this last year, but after and like I said, I don't know, I don't know if I'll be able to get that far, but I would really like to go beyond 100 miles.

1:22:30

So and I spend too much time with people who run 200 miles and they finally got to me.

So you spend, you spend enough time talking to Om, you're going to look at a 200 Miller, so.

That's so scary.

Because he's just like an absolute beast at 200 Miller so.

Did he run?

He ran all three of them.

Like are there like 3 200 miles that he did or?

1:22:48

Yeah, he was trying to Triple Crown his Moab.

Didn't go, didn't go the way he wanted it to.

It got really hot, apparently, But knowing setbacks don't stop him at all.

So maybe putting that goal out there if I get I just need to check off this 100 miles.

Yeah, I don't know why.

1:23:04

Or maybe if I don't get there, I'll just like go for the 200.

Yeah.

Screw it.

Yeah, that's.

What I'm saying, do it.

That's what someone told me, like if you DNF again to sign up for 200 miles.

They're like, I was like, that doesn't sound too.

Bad.

You out of pocket?

Sure.

That makes sense.

That's so funny.

So think about that, that, that and just contain like my next milestone would be continuing to grow the the network and continue writing.

1:23:28

I try to be a strong advocate for addiction recovery.

So continuing that work, you know, I've got a lot of goals that aren't made necessarily distance related.

And those are just the things that get deeper in the community is my next goal, you know, and I, I love it so much.

I love these people in meeting.

1:23:44

It's, you know, there's a lot of great communities, but the trail running and running community is just giving me such a great home.

Well, thank you so much for taking the time to do.

This today.

And thanks for coming over, doing this in person.

It's so nice.

I've never met you in person either.

1:23:59

And it's just always so nice to finally like put a real face with a name.

So thank you and thank you to everybody who's listened.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And happy running.

Happy running, I love that.

If you enjoyed this Sandy Boy Productions podcast, be sure to share, rate, and review I mean it if you haven't, it would mean so much and be super helpful.

1:24:22

See you next week.

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